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ORIGINAL: PerfectClaire

That's how my anoles do it. The male just pounces on the female, bites her neck, and goes wild with one of his two penises.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


These days, if women want any sort of equality, they should expect to go dutch; not 'expect' the guy to pay for everything.

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Is a woman not entitled to equal treatment because she believes that if a man asks her out on a date, he should pay for said date?

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
It's a department of manners, isn't it? That's the only department that can deal with such paradoxes: a man might love to give gifts, to the point where she learns to expect it. But if she shows that expectation, it kills his desire to give her gifts. A lot of this stuff just isn't all that rational, basically.

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Is a woman not entitled to equal treatment because she believes that if a man asks her out on a date, he should pay for said date?

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug
I truly do wonder about people who so rail against the very idea that some people think it's "correct" for a man to do this. If I want any sort of "equality" in life, I should expect to go Dutch? Fuck that. How does this have anything to do with the "equal rights movement"?

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Again, I'm thankful that there are still some men out there who think like I do. Not everyone needs to agree with me. I only need one. And thankfully I've found him.

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
It's a department of manners, isn't it? That's the only department that can deal with such paradoxes: a man might love to give gifts, to the point where she learns to expect it. But if she shows that expectation, it kills his desire to give her gifts. A lot of this stuff just isn't all that rational, basically.

Just makes no sense to me.

You state at the beginning of our relationship that you love to have tasks for the week, they make you feel special and warm and fuzzy inside. I agree that I think that's nifty.

Now, are given a set of tasks on Monday every week. I do this for 6 months, and you love it. Every time, it makes you feel special and warm and fuzzy inside.

Then, one Monday, I'm a little late, and you ask where it is. I realize you expect it.

Now I don't want to do it. It's expected. That makes it BAAAAAAAD.

So, I don't do it, for no reason other than you expect it, now. You don't get warm fuzzies. You now feel resentment.

This makes no sense to me. *shrugs*

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Is a woman not entitled to equal treatment because she believes that if a man asks her out on a date, he should pay for said date?

Do you honestly think that is "equal" treatment? Really????

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Equal.... meaning things split 'equally' down the middle.

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Equal pay for equal work regardless of gender.
Equal rights to the same job, regardless of gender.

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Equal rights of THE GUY to expect the woman to pay after all these centuries of unequal manners!!!
How does that grab you??

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If you want equal for everything else, then to expect such an old-fashioned idea as the guy pays just because he asked, is just unfair in this day and age.

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If you want equal, then have it equal all down the line.
Not just the bits that suit you.

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There are some that think that way.
And if truth be told, a lot of guys think that way.
But, if you truly want equality, you can't cherry-pick which bits of equality you want.
In a society of "equal", it's all or nothing.
Can't have your cake and eat it, not unless you baked it!!

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
It's a department of manners, isn't it? That's the only department that can deal with such paradoxes: a man might love to give gifts, to the point where she learns to expect it. But if she shows that expectation, it kills his desire to give her gifts. A lot of this stuff just isn't all that rational, basically.

Just makes no sense to me.

You state at the beginning of our relationship that you love to have tasks for the week, they make you feel special and warm and fuzzy inside. I agree that I think that's nifty.

Now, are given a set of tasks on Monday every week. I do this for 6 months, and you love it. Every time, it makes you feel special and warm and fuzzy inside.

Then, one Monday, I'm a little late, and you ask where it is. I realize you expect it.

Now I don't want to do it. It's expected. That makes it BAAAAAAAD.

So, I don't do it, for no reason other than you expect it, now. You don't get warm fuzzies. You now feel resentment.

This makes no sense to me. *shrugs*

I'm sorry, Nookie, but I don't understand this at all. I haven't said anything of the kind, to anyone. Have you mistaken me for some other man?

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My apologies PeonForHer, I was making a hypothetical, not actually saying that YOU (specific) say it. The point was your assertion that things stop just because they are expected is silly to me.

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ORIGINAL: vivaciousgrace

Hmmm. This is an odd one.
I have been completely independent from the age of 15 and when I was married I was generally the one paying for nights out.
I actually feel a little strange about the notion of a man buying me a gift or paying for a date. it makes me uncomfortable.
This is not helped by once accepting a gift that a very insistent man offered, and then later having a full scale argument with him about how I now OWED him sex because he had bought me a present (which I had never asked for, and was reluctant to accept) He was extremely difficult to handle and the entire encounter made me feel sick.

On the other hand I do occasionally meet gentlemen who want to make that nice gesture of paying and who are not implying in any way that this will buy my services. And then I end up torn between potentially upsetting them by refusing to let them pay, or accepting the gift but then I am not comfortable with that... Its really hard to know what to do for the best. And is in fact why i often avoid "formal date" type situations until I have had time to explain my feelings on the matter!

One friend and occasional playmate is very insistent on paying for things, largely because of the vast difference between our incomes. I think he likes to treat me to things i would not ever have otherwise. Its very nice of him, it upsets him if i refuse to accept and we have agreed that although i will not be buying him any fancy meals in expensive restaurants because I do not have the means to do so, I am pretty damn good in the kitchen myself and bake amazing cakes and I can return the favour that way. :)
As long as we each make effort to do nice things for each other, within what we can each afford, then it works.

But I would never EXPECT a man to pay, and absolutely never ask for it! I think that is really quite rude!
And I am not so disillusioned as to think myself special enough that men should earn my favour with presents or money.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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My apologies PeonForHer, I was making a hypothetical, not actually saying that YOU (specific) say it. The point was your assertion that things stop just because they are expected is silly to me.

I'm not saying they *should* stop; I'm saying they *do* stop. At times and with certain people. It doesn't always make sense - but there we are.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If you want equal for everything else, then to expect such an old-fashioned idea as the guy pays just because he asked, is just unfair in this day and age.
If you want equal, then have it equal all down the line.
Not just the bits that suit you.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But, if you truly want equality, you can't cherry-pick which bits of equality you want.
In a society of "equal", it's all or nothing.
Can't have your cake and eat it, not unless you baked it!!

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Like Kittenluv, I am a proponent of traditional gender roles within my relationship. Outside of it is a different story. And, I fail to see where these are at odds with one another.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

So you think equality is "I eat, you pay"? Seriously? As an expectation??????
Not in my world.
Sure, I'm likely to offer, like many guys would.
But if you "expect" it, I'll leave the table paying only my part of the bill.

In simple terms: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Simple!

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ORIGINAL: shiftyw

as a bisexual, why aren't we considering all the other women who aren't hetero?

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If you want equal for everything else, then to expect such an old-fashioned idea as the guy pays just because he asked, is just unfair in this day and age.
If you want equal, then have it equal all down the line.
Not just the bits that suit you.

And, again, I'm glad that I have found people who don't think this way.

"Unfair" is all about perception. Plain and simple.

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

But, if you truly want equality, you can't cherry-pick which bits of equality you want.
In a society of "equal", it's all or nothing.
Can't have your cake and eat it, not unless you baked it!!

Here's the deal. I don't expect "equality" in my relationship. I do expect, however, to get equal pay as a man for equal work. Two completely separate animals, IMO.

Like Kittenluv, I am a proponent of traditional gender roles within my relationship. Outside of it is a different story. And, I fail to see where these are at odds with one another.

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ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If you want equal for everything else, then to expect such an old-fashioned idea as the guy pays just because he asked, is just unfair in this day and age.
If you want equal, then have it equal all down the line.
Not just the bits that suit you.

And, again, I'm glad that I have found people who don't think this way.

"Unfair" is all about perception. Plain and simple.

The people who do think this way want everybody to be on a level playing field. Nice in theory; impossible in application.
Is it fair that all men aren't the same height? To some women, this doesn't matter, but to others, being vertically challenged is a deal breaker.
Is it fair that not all people were born with the same degree of attractiveness? Same capacity for intelligence? Same soundness in health, without any congenital birth defects, physical or learning disabilities? Born into the same socio-economic status? Given the same opportunities in life?
Is it fair that the best qualified person doesn't always get the job or the promotion s/he deserved?

Let me ask of any fathers, did you carry your child in utero for 4-1/2 months on average? And if your child was breastfed, were you able to avail your mammaries to do the job half the time? (Or get up half the time in the middle of the night multiple times to prepare bottle feedings?) Did you change half the diapers, or wait until your wife/SO got around to it?
Do men nowadays always do half the housework when their partner also works? Do you both sit down and calculate hours, so that if one of you has more shifts or had to put in overtime, the other pitches in a commensurate amount to the division of labor? What if one of you has a disability, illness, or limitation of some sort (demands on time & resources due to parenting responsibilities or in caring for an elderly parent or relative), then what?

Is it fair that nature studies have shown, lionesses not only prefer the more muscular and powerfully built male lion, but also ones whose full mane is in darker contrast to his tawny body?
(As an aside, animal behavior in the wild is the default, not unnatural confinement in cages, nor man's intervention with herds, domestic livestock, and domestic pets.)

The bottom line is this. We all have to compete for what we want, in one form or another. If you in general as a man want to handicap yourself within any given pool of contenders, then that's your choice to deal with the consequences of your action/inaction/feeble-mindedness.

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ORIGINAL: littleladybug

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

But, if you truly want equality, you can't cherry-pick which bits of equality you want.
In a society of "equal", it's all or nothing.
Can't have your cake and eat it, not unless you baked it!!

Here's the deal. I don't expect "equality" in my relationship. I do expect, however, to get equal pay as a man for equal work. Two completely separate animals, IMO.

Like Kittenluv, I am a proponent of traditional gender roles within my relationship. Outside of it is a different story. And, I fail to see where these are at odds with one another.

I believe the experiment of an equal society was tried with communism and failed. Miserably. Socialist ideologies have turned out many a fascist regime headed by dictators instead (Hitler, Mussolini, Franco).

Further, I am not a radical feminist. If the truth be known, I don't want to be treated like an equal alongside your common man; I expect to be treated like a lady when I'm in the company of men. I'm nobody's instant bud, whether I'm among a group of men or women.

Like the original ideologies of so many ancient classical philosophers, and more modern philosophers like Karl Marx, these idealistic precepts get twisted and convoluted to where there is no longer individual freedom of choice, responsibly exercised.
I am more eclectically minded. I take what I can of value and relevance, weigh it against my personal value and belief system, assess its ethical integrity, and discard the rest.

@NorthernGent, I take it you and/or other Dominants want a servant girl fucktoy who will pay her own way, at some point become your live-in housekeeper/cook/maid/laundress, or even au pair, attend to your physical needs, without so much as the benefit of room & board included or the wages you would have to pay a hired servant. A working, income-generating submissive female who could do much better in a committed relationship with a traditionally minded vanilla man. Where is the "equality" in that? There is none. And there certainly isn't any egalitarianism when it comes to a D/s relationship power dynamic either. In fact, there should be a long line of such women stretching down the block who are clamoring for the position of being your sub(s) after you split the bill on your first meeting date, as your symbolic gesture of your boundless equanimity.
And men with this mentality don't believe in *dating* and consider it a waste of time; they feel self-entitled to cut to the chase. They aren't willing to invest their time, energy, effort and resources into cultivating a relationship with a lady, yet they will invest all manner of money in materialistic "tangibles" for their personal benefit (which should ring a bell with you, as an accounting professional yourself), or squander it on gambling or placing bets, paying for rounds of ale at the local pub with their buddies every weekend, etc. Where you spend your money reveals what your higher priorities in life are, no matter how you sugarcoat the reality of the situation.

There's nothing wrong with having your cake and eating it, too, if you were the one who procured the ingredients, prepared and baked it yourself, and then shared it with others instead of being a selfish pig who hogs the entire dessert for himself.

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ORIGINAL: Kittenluv954

just food for thought, some seem to be stuck on the fact that -all- women are obsessed with equality. some simply arent. i like traditional roles in relationships, i like male led HoH, i dont care if he makes more money, hes paying for things. does that mean he calls the shots? yep. and that turns me on like crazy. some of us arent on the equality bandwagon, marching for women to be just like men. im ok with being a woman, and enjoy men who are firm in their position of being the man. to say that everyone wants things to be the way they have become, is to undermine the entire 1950s household crowd who feels differently. imo. we are talking about courting, and romantic beginnings here, not exactly reinventing the wheel.