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RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 9:08:51 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Your links have nothing to do with Europe broadband vs US broadband, suggesting that you are the one who fails the reading comprehension test, joether

The last paragraph from the article I linked to spells it our very simply - Europe is abandoning their failed model and looking to the (current) superior US model because of its success:

quote:

The reality is that the most recent data from the ITU shows that the U.S. has the lowest entry level broadband pricing in the developed world and the OECD recently found that U.S. broadband pricing has fallen drastically in the last two years when measured on a per megabit basis. The U.S. leads the world in broadband investment and technology diversification, and its broadband networks support a vast and growing economy of digital commerce and exports that is the envy of Europe. This is why European leaders are abandoning their regulatory approach and looking to the American broadband framework.

It isnt broken, but the partisan FCC bureaucrats are determined to "fix" it anyway

The most troubling aspect of this power grab from the current crop of "liberals' is their usual secrecy regarding what was in it before they passed it, and the fact that it is such a partisan maneuver

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 21

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 9:24:56 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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There is nothing in your article that suggests that any of the asswipe you are spewing is other than non-sequitur.

The GOVERNMENT (according to your article) built the internet (which they did) by military, and then university, then by subsidy and monetary incentives to biz, and by seeing that ISPs were for the most part collocated or owned by common carriers.

So...........

_____________________________

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(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 22

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 9:43:30 AM

joether

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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Your links have nothing to do with Europe broadband vs US broadband, suggesting that you are the one who fails the reading comprehension test, joether

Oh yes, I forgot, the 'science' used in America is not the same as used in 'Europe'. Forgot....

Try to take a moment to understand that half your argument depended on American ISP to give accurate and truthful statements on their connection speeds. Hence the link that shows not to be true from the US Government.

The other half is the assumption that European nations are inferior to USA systems. I hate to tell you, but many of those folks have computer and other hardware systems on par with the USA.

The evidence also disproves your assumptions

This one places the USA #11, and beaten by several European Nations.

is the United States mentioned on this one?

I can come up with a hundred more sites that show your argument is 'full of shit'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
The last paragraph from the article I linked to spells it our very simply - Europe is abandoning their failed model and looking to the (current) superior US model because of its success:

quote:

The reality is that the most recent data from the ITU shows that the U.S. has the lowest entry level broadband pricing in the developed world and the OECD recently found that U.S. broadband pricing has fallen drastically in the last two years when measured on a per megabit basis. The U.S. leads the world in broadband investment and technology diversification, and its broadband networks support a vast and growing economy of digital commerce and exports that is the envy of Europe. This is why European leaders are abandoning their regulatory approach and looking to the American broadband framework.

Isn't it curious the author doesn't point out any links or footnotes to explain where all those 'body of information' comes from, doesn't it? If your going to be making large-scale business decisions; wouldn't it make sense to know....WHERE...the information is coming from?

Likewise, the paragraph is full of shit. That is, if one does a casual and objective search for information. Your author didn't do it, and you didn't do it. Now how do you think I know of this information....

Europe is not switching over to 'the American' way! Gosh, can you say 'propaganda' any clearer? Because that is what the author is stating. We here in America take stuff found and created in other nations. And those nations do the same back to us. Its called 'science'. A concept you have 'fuck-no' knowledge on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
The most troubling aspect of this power grab from the current crop of "liberals' is their usual secrecy regarding what was in it before they passed it, and the fact that it is such a partisan maneuver

You....REALLY...have no idea what your babbling about. That there is some sort of conspiracy going on, and you alone, know the truth!

Reality check please...

You view things from such a closed box it is sad. That you attack 'those evil, horrible, commie, tree-hugging, vile, un-American' liberals, in a manner that is just laughable and immature. I bet if I were to question you long enough, you would speak on liberal thoughts and then try to justify them to a 'conservative' notion.

You stand to gain from the 'power grab' by liberals in ways you dont even know or understand. Yet, if things were to go in the opposite direction, you would be bitching about oppression, evil governments, and tyrannical ISPs. That most of us know that you would behave had things been opposite, should clue you in on something.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 23

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 10:46:22 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Your links are non sequiturs. You are comparing bananas to tacos, joether

The Forbes article compares cost, speed, availability and investment throughout the USA to the whole of Europe (per Mr Rodgers original misinformed claim)

Yours are hit-and-miss comparisons to spotlight areas around the globe

Things are at the point now that I consider your posts so spurious and irrelevant that they are safely ignored

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Post #: 24

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 10:59:45 AM

mnottertail

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Well, sorry charlie, you are no tuna. the Internet has been done here over many many years, and the EU has only been regulating the European internet since the 1990s. And they do not control infrastructure there, and had to deal with national publically owned telephone companies.

Regulations have nothing to do with any of the shit we are dealing with in your asswipe.

There is no doubt they don't have the infrastructure we have, because our military made the internet as DARPA, and spent a great deal of contract money (thats right, socialism to nutsackers) and decommissioned and publicized the internet which we have had the beginnings of since 1958, and the last restriction to the public leaving about 1996 or just about the time the EU started. We have near 40 years on anyone else.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 25

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 11:20:39 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

You should have titled the thread "Grubered Again!"

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Post #: 26

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 11:31:21 AM

mnottertail

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Should have titled the thread as, sorry, [Mod edit to remove a word the word filter missed] are not going to slavishly felch corporations on this one.

< Message edited by Moderator3 -- 3/1/2015 11:02:06 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 27

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 2:14:33 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I support this decision and contrary to the repubs objections (and no votes) this will preserve innovation and competition by NOT pricing them out and creating new and higher barriers for that to happen which could have under various pricing schemes proffered to current investors.

"The new rules, approved 3 to 2 along party lines, are intended to ensure that no content is blocked and that the Internet is not divided into pay-to-play fast lanes for Internet and media companies that can afford it and slow lanes for everyone else. Those prohibitions are hallmarks of the net neutrality concept."

ALl of the talk of this being overly broad govt. regulation as usual is bullshit. What the current big oligoploly wanted was also as usual...more money by creating a fast lane for businesses at a premium and s slow lane for the homeowner with the homeowner suffering from lack of capacity the companies would never invest in unless driven to it by what...being now a utility.

You are right , government control always leads to an explosion of innovation.

Any so-called innovation without this, would have been paid for by Harry homeowner up front and some say is already happening with average bills creeping up to $70-$80/mo. [It] will still be that way but only as a matter of return on capital...no longer oligopoly profits and then...only maybe.

Besides...tell me about all of the innovations we will miss now because of this.

Europe for example, has competition, twice the spectrum and all at 1/2 the cost...what a ripoff their reg. are hey ?

Get a grip, use all of the buzzwords you want. In America it is greed and profits and why we can't have ala carte TV cable or sat. We are forced to take 100 fucking channels we don't watch...and pay big for them.

You want me to tell you what technical innovations yet undiscovered we will miss out on because of this, if I could answer that I would have a job in the industry. What wonderful innovations will come about because someone from the government is standing over the potential innovators shoulders?
You actually believe that they won't be able to charge us for innovations but that they will put out the time money and effort to make them?

You and I, I am sure, have a different perspective on just what are innovations. For far too many businesses in the US in particular, innovation means simply...new profit centers.

One new 'innovation' would be to charge you and I the current relatively high monthly fee for service that is even slower so they can charge a higher fee using capacity and bandwidth for the big players like Google, MS, Yahoo, Netflix for example for the fastest service and the fastest they have now without investing a dime.

That alone would mean billion$ in more profits without changing anything. This ruling prevents that.

Plus any such innovations wouldn't be spurred on (the last was WiFi actually inspired by some competition but also a relatively very cheap addition) by competition as for example I go Comcast and the great inspired innovative Internet redirects me to Cox. Back east, I went to Cox and was redirected to Comcast...meaning ? NO competing with each other.

There's Comcast in SF and Time Warner in LA and in each area...do NOT compete and this doesn't force them too and in fact reg. as a utility I expect we'll see a legislated minimum wage..OH, I am sorry...a minimum return on capital just as in electric utilities that must be suffering with only the Kock bros. and W. Buffet still buying them. Funny how they hate reg. so...yet buy up some of the most heavily reg. businesses in the market.

What competition there is, uses the backbone (infrastructure) of either ATT or Verizon and thus after the 12 month teaser rate at $40-$50/mo that after a year, are up to $70-$80 a month like my Cox has.

Otherwise it is HotSpots which is an unmitigated rip off at $10/gig last time I had ATT. Streaming anything runs up several gigs a week. In two months my ATT HotSpots was over $400. Nothing is about technology, features, capabilities, or peformance without first...being all about money.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/27/2015 2:22:26 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 28

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 2:34:27 PM

MrRodgers

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"Open Internet" part of the Digital Agenda in Europe.

As a result, new services have been made available to consumers: browsing, mailing, Peer-to-Peer (P2P), instant messaging, Internet telephony (Voice over Internet Protocol ‘‘VoIP’’), videoconference, gaming online, video streaming, etc. This development has taken place mainly on a commercial basis without any regulatory intervention.

The openness of the Internet is closely linked to the application of the principle of network neutrality or net neutrality. The Electronic Communications' Framework defines it as the ability for consumers to "access and distribute information or run applications and services of their choice."

Far too few American capitalists, have any principles...just greed.

Oh...and my link was to the FCC vote and never suggested [it] was anything else. I've simply researched international regimes vis-a-vis digital technology.

HERE

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/27/2015 2:37:36 PM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 29

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 3:51:26 PM

Aylee

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Joined: 10/14/2007
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NM

< Message edited by Aylee -- 2/27/2015 3:59:14 PM >

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Post #: 30

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 4:11:23 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Hey Bama, isn't the Post Office KNOWN for its innovations?

Hey, Aylee, aren't conservatives and libertarians KNOWN for their intelligence and innovation?

No, not really....

Being obedient, mindless, uninformed, drones, they are.....

Ya know, most people do not claim a link between intelligence and ideology for several reasons:

1. That was something that Nazi Germany did, famously with regard to their Enigma machine.

2. Accepting that intelligence is completely innate means accepting that blacks are inferior mentally since they score lower than whites and Asians on tests.

3. Accepting that intelligence is completely innate means accepting than women are inferior to men mentally because of test scores.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 31

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 4:48:12 PM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Four million Americans wrote to the FCC to make it happen. Very proud. All internet companies are created equal, well done.

Well I share your sentiments but too bad it didn't stay that way. They've so consolidated the market have such market power, the govt. needed to step in.
Think about it, how do these ISP's have the power they do ? Out here it's Cox and Century Link and that's about it, so for a phone (land line) and Internet, it's $120/mo. That's a rip off.

Really? There are no other options between Cox and Century Link?
I can get a cable provider (but, pretty much just one option, thanks to government) here to provide my phone and internet, if I so choose (I have). I can get AT&T (may be others, I haven't looked at any other phone companies) to provide my TV, phone and internet, too. I can get my TV and internet from a satellite dish company, too.
You might want to look into why there are only Cox and Century Link. It might be because of government reg's, not from the lack of government reg's.

Why is there only two companies providing the service in the area?
I love business questions. Particularly from individuals intelligent enough to look up the information themselves, but cant, because they let other people do their thinking for them! There are reasons for why Cox and Century Link exist.
Why are there only two companies? Could be the lack of customers for a third to survive in. Or that the two companies are very competitive in their pricing so as to keep a third from the market. It could also be hundreds of reasons. None of which have any or little to do with government or the regulations by government. That you assume things because of government regulation immediately only shows your political viewpoints as well as your limited business knowledge.

My statement, it "might be because of government reg's," is still valid, Joether. And, using the qualifier, "might" also implies that it "might not" be, too. Apparently, that's too much nuance for you.

quote:

Why not a third company, DS? Or even a start up company, with owners and employees sick of Cox and Century Link? Wanting to give customers a good, realistic, third option?
You haven't made a case that either company or both of them, are doing their business actions solely or mostly because of government.

I don't have to make the case, dumbass. I asked why there were only two. He could live in a very remote area. In which case, he might (notice the use of word, "might," again) be lucky there is even a choice.

My statement still stands as true, it might be because of government regulations that there are only two choices.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 32

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 6:11:57 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

Four million Americans wrote to the FCC to make it happen. Very proud. All internet companies are created equal, well done.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/november_2014/61_oppose_federal_regulation_of_the_internet

That is lovely, but the majority of Americans polled are NOT happy with this.

quote:

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 26% of American Adults agree the Federal Communications Commission should regulate the Internet like it does radio and television. Sixty-one percent (61%) disagree and think the Internet should remain open without regulation and censorship. Thirteen percent (13%) are not sure.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 33

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/27/2015 6:20:38 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

The historic vote was cheered by internet activists, President Barack Obama and many in the tech community. However, few people have seen the actual orders...

Ignorance cheers the vote with great enthusiasm

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(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 34

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/28/2015 7:15:46 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

Four million Americans wrote to the FCC to make it happen. Very proud. All internet companies are created equal, well done.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/november_2014/61_oppose_federal_regulation_of_the_internet

That is lovely, but the majority of Americans polled are NOT happy with this.

quote:

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 26% of American Adults agree the Federal Communications Commission should regulate the Internet like it does radio and television. Sixty-one percent (61%) disagree and think the Internet should remain open without regulation and censorship. Thirteen percent (13%) are not sure.

Rasmussen is a well known right wing propaganda organ, ever since the actual Mr. Rasmussen sold it and left. Pure fantasy, most people actually don't know what net neutrality is in any case.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 35

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/28/2015 8:05:11 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Four million Americans wrote to the FCC to make it happen. Very proud. All internet companies are created equal, well done.

Well I share your sentiments but too bad it didn't stay that way. They've so consolidated the market have such market power, the govt. needed to step in.
Think about it, how do these ISP's have the power they do ? Out here it's Cox and Century Link and that's about it, so for a phone (land line) and Internet, it's $120/mo. That's a rip off.

Really? There are no other options between Cox and Century Link?

I can get a cable provider (but, pretty much just one option, thanks to government) here to provide my phone and internet, if I so choose (I have). I can get AT&T (may be others, I haven't looked at any other phone companies) to provide my TV, phone and internet, too. I can get my TV and internet from a satellite dish company, too.

You might want to look into why there are only Cox and Century Link. It might be because of government reg's, not from the lack of government reg's.

its cuz the corps that are in the area have ironclad monopolistic contracts with the city/county which last for decades.. even google with its billions cant get in anywhere easily.. they are in only 3 markets right now, that has taken them 5 years.. but they seem to be expanding more rapidly now.. but still.. it could take a long while to become a fiberhood..

http://googlefiberblog.blogspot.com/

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Post #: 36

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 2/28/2015 8:30:48 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Four million Americans wrote to the FCC to make it happen. Very proud. All internet companies are created equal, well done.

Well I share your sentiments but too bad it didn't stay that way. They've so consolidated the market have such market power, the govt. needed to step in.
Think about it, how do these ISP's have the power they do ? Out here it's Cox and Century Link and that's about it, so for a phone (land line) and Internet, it's $120/mo. That's a rip off.

Really? There are no other options between Cox and Century Link?

I can get a cable provider (but, pretty much just one option, thanks to government) here to provide my phone and internet, if I so choose (I have). I can get AT&T (may be others, I haven't looked at any other phone companies) to provide my TV, phone and internet, too. I can get my TV and internet from a satellite dish company, too.

You might want to look into why there are only Cox and Century Link. It might be because of government reg's, not from the lack of government reg's.

its cuz the corps that are in the area have ironclad monopolistic contracts with the city/county which last for decades.. even google with its billions cant get in anywhere easily.. they are in only 3 markets right now, that has taken them 5 years.. but they seem to be expanding more rapidly now.. but still.. it could take a long while to become a fiberhood..

http://googlefiberblog.blogspot.com/

.....and if their basic Internet comes to fruition in every city, $25/mo for 12 mos. only...is real competition.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 37

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 3/1/2015 6:00:30 AM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko
Four million Americans wrote to the FCC to make it happen. Very proud. All internet companies are created equal, well done.

Well I share your sentiments but too bad it didn't stay that way. They've so consolidated the market have such market power, the govt. needed to step in.
Think about it, how do these ISP's have the power they do ? Out here it's Cox and Century Link and that's about it, so for a phone (land line) and Internet, it's $120/mo. That's a rip off.

Really? There are no other options between Cox and Century Link?
I can get a cable provider (but, pretty much just one option, thanks to government) here to provide my phone and internet, if I so choose (I have). I can get AT&T (may be others, I haven't looked at any other phone companies) to provide my TV, phone and internet, too. I can get my TV and internet from a satellite dish company, too.
You might want to look into why there are only Cox and Century Link. It might be because of government reg's, not from the lack of government reg's.

its cuz the corps that are in the area have ironclad monopolistic contracts with the city/county which last for decades.. even google with its billions cant get in anywhere easily.. they are in only 3 markets right now, that has taken them 5 years.. but they seem to be expanding more rapidly now.. but still.. it could take a long while to become a fiberhood..
http://googlefiberblog.blogspot.com/

Thus, it's because of government reg's...

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 38

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 3/1/2015 7:22:53 AM

MercTech

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Joined: 7/4/2006
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To boil down a decade of wrangling....

If the internet is not a utility; it would not fall under the regulatory umbrella of the Federal Communications Commission that oversees broadcast, cable, and telephony services. This is the argument that Comcast, Verizon, and AT&T Uverse used to challenge the net neutrality policy. The big three internet service providers wanted to charge to "fast lane" their own content and content that paid them not to throttle their bandwidth.

With the internet being classed as a "utility" it leaves the FCC free to enforce policies on the internet service providers such as "net neutrality".

Most internet users don't realize that their ISP is a retailer and there exists another set of companies that service the "backbone" of the internet. Well, at least they don't realize unless they are trying to get a T1 line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_backbone

A decade ago; there were several computer networks that provided access to the internet but only provided full speed service to their own proprietary services. Those moved from major players to havens for the clueless and ended up left in the dust. Yes, AOL I'm talking about YOU. How many people remember Compuserve or Prodigy or General Electric Networks "GEnie" service? The huge companies that didn't think their customers wanted full access to that new fangled internet thing but would forever be happy playing in their proprietary sandbox. Comcast, Verizon, and Uverse want to bring those days back it seems.

The internet has grown a lot larger than the original government and university experiment in distributed computing (ARPANET). Internet service is fast outstripping classic telephony and broadcast television as a necessity for the home. As much as I detest large federal bureaucracy; I can't see a method besides considering internet service as a utility to keep a few large corporations from riding rough shod over all the consumers.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 39

RE: FCC votes 3-2...Internet is a utility. - 3/1/2015 7:37:00 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

and thats it right there in a nutshell
Corporations are raping the public....its all ok
capitalissssssssssssssm rules

It is still amazing to me that so many people do not and DID not understand what its about.
As shown in this thread multiple times.
stupidity should hurt more.

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Post #: 40

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