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Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 12:24:53 AM   
Kirata


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SLC officer in parade controversy speaks out on religious liberty

In June of 2014, the Salt Lake City Motor Squad Unit was asked to participate in the Utah Pride Parade in Salt Lake City, which included performing choreographed maneuvers on motorcycles. Moutsos, a member of the unit, was told to participate. But because of his personal beliefs, he said he felt uncomfortable doing so. Moutsos said he had no problem performing his duty to protect and serve. The officer had previously provided security as same-sex couples flocked to the Salt Lake City-County Building to be married following a federal court ruling legalizing same-sex marriage.

But in this case, Moutsos felt that what he was being asked to do was more for entertainment... "I will protect their parade. But I just don't want to be in the parade." Moutsos said he sent an internal email asking to swap assignments with another officer...

"Two days later I was brought into one of the commander's offices. They took my badge and my gun for discrimination. My sergeant then drove me home and took all of my equipment, said I could not perform as a police officer... "I have protected free speech events several times that I disagreed with. But I will protect them. I believe in the First Amendment — so much that even if I disagree with a particular message, I will still be there to protect it. Because without them being able to say what they want to say, I wouldn't be able to say what I want to say."

Not good enough...

"I will not tolerate bias, bigotry or hatred in the organization," [the Chief] told the KSL Tuesday... "With police officers — and this is the problem across the nation right now — you have to be able to do your job and set your personal feelings aside in order to equally distribute law enforcement and good will from the police department no matter where you are in this country, to every individual regardless of their religion, their race, their creeds, what gender they are or what sexual orientation they might be," he said.

When did it become a Police Officer's duty to provide entertainment in Gay Pride parades?

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/27/2015 1:05:34 AM >
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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 1:08:05 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Should we add this post to the file of evidence of your 'left-libertarian' politics? The file is in desperate need of a little beefing up ....

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 1:24:44 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Should we add this post to the file of evidence of your 'left-libertarian' politics? The file is in desperate need of a little beefing up ....

You have a passion for playing with boxes, even if you have to invent them. I suggest you find another hobby. What I actually said what that my politics lean left/libertarian, a nuance that escapes you. Moreover, with respect to the present case, I've also never claimed to be a "progressive" in its current political meaning.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/27/2015 1:37:24 AM >

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 1:37:37 AM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		If the SLC PD dept. had make it clear policy that special motor units job description included participating IN partisan political or public issue advocacy parades and demonstrations, they would have grounds for discipline, though the City Council may want to review that policy? I doubt any court would sustain a firing for Asking to swap assignments. The story implies there was no opportunity to refuse or accept the duty? If there has been no previous policy or job description covering the assignment, I see one big settlement coming the ex-officer's way for what appears a summary dismissal without explaining consequences if the duty is refused.
And I see SLC PD morale issues and organizational dysfunction as it's now clear bottom to top communication can cost a job.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 2/27/2015 1:40:45 AM >

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 3:35:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
"I will not tolerate bias, bigotry or hatred in the organization," [the Chief] told the KSL Tuesday... "With police officers — and this is the problem across the nation right now — you have to be able to do your job and set your personal feelings aside in order to equally distribute law enforcement and good will from the police department no matter where you are in this country, to every individual regardless of their religion, their race, their creeds, what gender they are or what sexual orientation they might be," he said.
When did it become a Police Officer's duty to provide entertainment in Gay Pride parades?
K.


When did the PD become "good will" ambassadors?

LEO's are there to serve and protect. Parade participation is neither serving (as an LEO), nor protecting. the officer involved stated that he has provided security for events where his personal feelings did not agree with the promoters of the event. I wonder what assignment he was looking to swap to.

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 5:12:22 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		one of the key elements consistent with the title thread though comes from the chief's statement: "I will not tolerate bias, bigotry or hatred in the organization"

so in his view, someone refusing to take part as entertainment in a parade, despite having served the supposedly aggrieved parties (homosexuals) on multiple prior occasions in his official capacity, is tantamount bigotry and hatred.

it cant be labeled as it is in the eyes of the beholder, it has to be escalated to something akin to a hate crime...or maybe that is a hate crime in the eyes of the left, im not sure.

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 5:29:28 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		I think that his termination is BS. There are caviots

if his job description, as an essential part of the job, required him to participate as entertainment
if his job description requires that he relinquish his personal feelings in all cases that involve what I percieve as a voluntary assignment
If his job description requires him to go to every function that he is invited to
if there is a policy against assignment swapping (in which case about every officer would be terminated at one time or another probably)

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 5:42:18 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		Sometimes I think there are people who do nothing but sit around and think up ways to be offended. I can understand ordering a cop to protect the parade but I can't think of a single reason why he would have to be in the parade to do so.

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 6:05:46 AM   
cloudboy


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I would not have fired the officer, but why didn't he participate in the parade after receiving an order to do so?


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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 7:04:41 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
SLC officer in parade controversy speaks out on religious liberty

In June of 2014, the Salt Lake City Motor Squad Unit was asked to participate in the Utah Pride Parade in Salt Lake City, which included performing choreographed maneuvers on motorcycles. Moutsos, a member of the unit, was told to participate. But because of his personal beliefs, he said he felt uncomfortable doing so. Moutsos said he had no problem performing his duty to protect and serve. The officer had previously provided security as same-sex couples flocked to the Salt Lake City-County Building to be married following a federal court ruling legalizing same-sex marriage.

But in this case, Moutsos felt that what he was being asked to do was more for entertainment... "I will protect their parade. But I just don't want to be in the parade." Moutsos said he sent an internal email asking to swap assignments with another officer...

"Two days later I was brought into one of the commander's offices. They took my badge and my gun for discrimination. My sergeant then drove me home and took all of my equipment, said I could not perform as a police officer... "I have protected free speech events several times that I disagreed with. But I will protect them. I believe in the First Amendment — so much that even if I disagree with a particular message, I will still be there to protect it. Because without them being able to say what they want to say, I wouldn't be able to say what I want to say."

Not good enough...

"I will not tolerate bias, bigotry or hatred in the organization," [the Chief] told the KSL Tuesday... "With police officers — and this is the problem across the nation right now — you have to be able to do your job and set your personal feelings aside in order to equally distribute law enforcement and good will from the police department no matter where you are in this country, to every individual regardless of their religion, their race, their creeds, what gender they are or what sexual orientation they might be," he said.

When did it become a Police Officer's duty to provide entertainment in Gay Pride parades?


I've heard this argument before. Usually by conservatives too.

How it works is this:

The person states a political and/or religious viewpoint that is not welcome by society. The person than states people should be tolerant of them for making intolerant viewpoints known, if they are to be tolerant of others. Except, one problem: If you push a viewpoint that is intolerant of others, why should those be tolerant of intolerance?

The officer in question was being intolerant and discriminating. Two things that this nation have seen usually leads to bad things. Or have you not been paying attention to reality for the last year? Of course you have been. You even posted on the threads about both of them. The management of the police would be quite correct in relieving the officer of his duties for the moment. If the officer is dumb enough to speak out, that could have further problems for his career.

Trying to justify intolerance for others there, Kirata?

Nice try......

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 7:08:42 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Should we add this post to the file of evidence of your 'left-libertarian' politics? The file is in desperate need of a little beefing up ....

You have a passion for playing with boxes, even if you have to invent them. I suggest you find another hobby. What I actually said what that my politics lean left/libertarian, a nuance that escapes you. Moreover, with respect to the present case, I've also never claimed to be a "progressive" in its current political meaning.


I took that same test from the same site as you did. I simply took 'disagree' to every question. Indiscriminately of how I might normally answered the question. Guess what I got? "left leaning libertarian". Which makes me think you didnt put to much thought into your answers. But then again, we see how much thought you put into your posts here....

The two seem to have common characteristics of the individual.


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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 7:22:29 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
"I will not tolerate bias, bigotry or hatred in the organization," [the Chief] told the KSL Tuesday... "With police officers — and this is the problem across the nation right now — you have to be able to do your job and set your personal feelings aside in order to equally distribute law enforcement and good will from the police department no matter where you are in this country, to every individual regardless of their religion, their race, their creeds, what gender they are or what sexual orientation they might be," he said.
When did it become a Police Officer's duty to provide entertainment in Gay Pride parades?
K.


When did the PD become "good will" ambassadors?


Yes, I'm sure those police officers in Ferguson wish they were 'good will' ambassadors, eh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
LEO's are there to serve and protect. Parade participation is neither serving (as an LEO), nor protecting. the officer involved stated that he has provided security for events where his personal feelings did not agree with the promoters of the event. I wonder what assignment he was looking to swap to.


A LEO serves the public by enforcing the laws of society. That's why we call them 'law enforcement'. But being a police officer does not just mean ruling in a 'Lawful Neutral' manner, but to Lawful Good. They must be aware that losing the public's good faith, makes their jobs ten times harder. So behaving in a manner that promotes good will and helps the public, is a good thing to be doing. What kind of individuals have problems with gay people, DS? Come on, its not to hard to figure this one out.

If the person has problems with gay people, what happens on a call that 'Goes South' with that officer involved? The police force will all be getting one sandwich to eat for the next several months: a shit sandwich! Or have you already forgotten Ferguson?

The management is simply taking a reasonable step to avoid such things. Now, it will be up to the union, of the police officer to decide if such a matter needs to be handled. An I *KNOW* how much conservatives love unions....






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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 11:36:59 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		This may come as a surprise to those of you leaning strongly left---to the rest of us “tolerance” is not the end-all, be-all of criteria that forms the foundation of thought and behavior.

In a pluralistic society, yes some tolerance is necessary in order for us to interact with people of wildly different personalities, values and beliefs.

However, at some point, when “tolerance” becomes the overriding god to which we pray, we can sacrifice the principals who make us who we are.

When “tolerance” is forced upon people who are in deep disagreement with the conditions at hand, it becomes a destructive vice instead.

How interesting that you are so intolerant of the officer in question. you probably see no hypocrisy there…that is, in the greater good of tolerance for your pet group (in this case homosexuals), it’s completely acceptable for liberals to run roughshod over a cop who disagrees with promoting their lifestyle. Individual thought and liberty be damned.

And you call people on the right "drones?"


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 2/27/2015 11:37:48 AM >

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 11:50:44 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		No surprise. No one has ever accused the [Mod edit of a filtered word] of a vigourous social agenda.


< Message edited by Moderator3 -- 3/5/2015 4:00:43 PM >

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 5:07:08 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
"I will not tolerate bias, bigotry or hatred in the organization," [the Chief] told the KSL Tuesday... "With police officers — and this is the problem across the nation right now — you have to be able to do your job and set your personal feelings aside in order to equally distribute law enforcement and good will from the police department no matter where you are in this country, to every individual regardless of their religion, their race, their creeds, what gender they are or what sexual orientation they might be," he said.
When did it become a Police Officer's duty to provide entertainment in Gay Pride parades?
K.

When did the PD become "good will" ambassadors?

Yes, I'm sure those police officers in Ferguson wish they were 'good will' ambassadors, eh?


Get back to me when you have the results of that survey.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
LEO's are there to serve and protect. Parade participation is neither serving (as an LEO), nor protecting. the officer involved stated that he has provided security for events where his personal feelings did not agree with the promoters of the event. I wonder what assignment he was looking to swap to.

A LEO serves the public by enforcing the laws of society. That's why we call them 'law enforcement'. But being a police officer does not just mean ruling in a 'Lawful Neutral' manner, but to Lawful Good. They must be aware that losing the public's good faith, makes their jobs ten times harder. So behaving in a manner that promotes good will and helps the public, is a good thing to be doing. What kind of individuals have problems with gay people, DS? Come on, its not to hard to figure this one out.
If the person has problems with gay people, what happens on a call that 'Goes South' with that officer involved? The police force will all be getting one sandwich to eat for the next several months: a shit sandwich! Or have you already forgotten Ferguson?
The management is simply taking a reasonable step to avoid such things. Now, it will be up to the union, of the police officer to decide if such a matter needs to be handled. An I *KNOW* how much conservatives love unions....


You can stop any time you want, Joether. We all know you're just a partisan dumbass. You don't have to keep proving it every time you write a post.

The LEO in the article has participated in the protection of the people he disagrees with. Being in a parade isn't doing anything to protect those people, really. If he tried to swap assignments to one of a LEO being on patrol during the parade, shows that he sees a big difference between being in a parade and protecting the citizens during that parade. That's also why I wondered what assignment he was trying to get.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/27/2015 6:32:39 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		How is appearing as part of a parade enforcing society's laws?


Also I think people have overlooked this part:

Once his request was denied:

'Moutsos told his supervisor he was still willing to be part of the parade and sent an email saying he'd be ready for practice and to participate in the parade itself. "


Frankly joether has expressed more hatred towards this LEO and certain political groups than this officer expressed about ANYONE. And he feels free to lecture the rest of us on tolerance?

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/28/2015 1:22:44 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Yo Moderators, ifs its 'OK' for the conservatives to attack and insult, its open season for everyone else. Start holding them strictly accountable. That way, the rest of us, that do not misbehave are rewarded for our efforts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Get back to me when you have the results of that survey.


Oh, I'm sorry, were you on Mars, underground, with a blanket over your head for last half dozen months? Here on planet Earth, and more specifically the United States of America, we got to witness what happens when police have a lack of 'good will' with the community they operate in. Since there were many people demanding better things from their local law enforcement. Had the police force been more in-tune to the needs and wants of the community, could things have been adverted or at least, minimized?

That you cant understand this, shows the limits of your educational level....

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You can stop any time you want, Joether. We all know you're just a partisan dumbass. You don't have to keep proving it every time you write a post.


Is that you best shot, DS? Calling me a 'partisan-dumbass'? Come on DS, grow the fuck up! Either be an adult or go hangout on Stormfront!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The LEO in the article has participated in the protection of the people he disagrees with.


You didnt really...READ...to understand the problem. This sentence of yours....CLEARLY....shows that. So let me inform you of the facts you missed:

1 ) The officer had been with the parade in the past as part of a security detail. Making sure the people went from point 'A' to point 'B' safely.

2 ) Had not....DIRECTLY....participated in the parade.

Before you slam someone, try to get the fucking facts straight!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Being in a parade isn't doing anything to protect those people, really.


I like you to go tell that to the men and women of the Boston Police force that were there the bombs exploded at the finish line for the Boston Marathon a few years ago. Or the people on the streets. I think they will tell you to take your head and 'shove it where the sun don't shine!' Since both groups had people running in the race that day.

Police in a parade or with a parade are actively protecting people. Just because their gun isn't drawn as they move from cover to cover, down the street....DOESN'T.....mean they are not protecting people. I've been in hundreds of parades, organized a few of them. The police are always professional even when everyone else is being festive. I've no doubt they had a few plain cloths cops in the crowds keeping people safe.

Do you actually get out of your house and go to parades?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If he tried to swap assignments to one of a LEO being on patrol during the parade, shows that he sees a big difference between being in a parade and protecting the citizens during that parade. That's also why I wondered what assignment he was trying to get.


He tried swapping assignments and failed. That is were he bucks up and does his duty. To be a professional means to handle the ugly with the bad. That there are jobs one does not like to do for a variety of reasons. But they do them to show they are a few steps above the hourly workers. That I suspect he couldn't keep his religious views in check (i.e. be professional), cost him quite a bit in credibility to his superiors.

There have been many instances in which the KKK have demanded to have a rally in a public venue. I'm sure there were plenty of officers that didnt like having to escort them to and from safely. But that is the nature of the job, DS. To be a professional police officer.

You have been a professional person in your day job, right? If you have, I would expect you to understand this. And without all the child-like insults with it!






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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/28/2015 1:36:54 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
How is appearing as part of a parade enforcing society's laws?


If you have to ask such a question, you really are not quite aware of what a police officer is and does.

They are in the public eye. Able to meet up, chat, and be seen as regular, ordinary people that have day jobs. They want good things to happen in their community the same as anyone else. They can be good role models for children, and someone to watch fireworks with every 4th of July.

That some on this board see the police in a hostile and threatening manner is very disturbing. Only irrational or criminal people look at police in that light.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Also I think people have overlooked this part:

Once his request was denied:

'Moutsos told his supervisor he was still willing to be part of the parade and sent an email saying he'd be ready for practice and to participate in the parade itself. "


I'm frankly a bit puzzled by the course of events. Not sure why he would be required to be an active participant in the parade in the first place. Maybe the police were doing it as a 'good will' gesture and choose the group this officer was in to do such a thing. If the guy was professional, he would have just done it, kept his views in check, and moved on. Since soldiers do not get to decide 'Fuck no, Captain, I'm going to stay in base tonight instead of going out on patrol tonight". Professionals often have to do stuff they dont want to do. What separates them from the hourly workers is not admitting to the frustration/distress and performing to the best of their abilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Frankly joether has expressed more hatred towards this LEO and certain political groups than this officer expressed about ANYONE. And he feels free to lecture the rest of us on tolerance?


Hatred? Where the fuck do you get that? Given the story, the officer's superiors decided to bench him. I'm guessing they had a long chat with the police officer in question and determined things were not likely to work out for everyone. That the officer could not be professional is his problem. Which is puzzling since most police officers in New England work hard to remain professional on the job.

Lecturing 'Tolerance'? You failed at 'consideration for your fellow human', Aylee. The class on 'Tolerance' comes afterward. Do you have a problem with professional people, too?

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/28/2015 1:59:32 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		FR

Participating in parades is definitely a part of a LEO's duties
Public engagement is a powerful way to help law enforcement engage with the community.

But it seems to me that this guy was treated very harshly. He made a request for a shift change, he didn't refuse to participate.

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RE: Homophobiaphobia - 2/28/2015 2:13:37 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

FR

Participating in parades is definitely a part of a LEO's duties
Public engagement is a powerful way to help law enforcement engage with the community.

But it seems to me that this guy was treated very harshly. He made a request for a shift change, he didn't refuse to participate.

Yes. I can't help wondering if there is more to this story than has been revealed thus far.

The notion of a police department sacking one of their own for his reluctance to participate in a Gay Pride march doesn't add up. I doubt if any one would be surprised if he had been sacked for participating in a Gay Pride march but for refusing to participate ...... that's not the way Police Depts have behaved over the years. While things are changing it's difficult to believe that they have changed to the extent necessary to make this story line credible.

At one level I would like to believe this story is true but to me it's stretching credulity to accept it on face value. No prizes for guessing that Moutsos has hired an attorney. Though there was talk of a lawsuit against the PD at the time of the incident, I couldn't find any reference to one having being filed or pursued, which struck me as a trifle odd.

ETA: This report of the affair has subtle but significant differences to the OP:
"Eric Moutsos doesn't believe he should have to leave his personal convictions at home when he walks out the door to go to work — particularly his religious beliefs.
But his former boss, Salt Lake Police Chief Chris Burbank, says when an officer shows up to work for his department, that officer is expected to do their job. And if there is any hint that any personal biases may get in the way of doing their assigned duties, then that's a problem.
Moutsos was placed on leave in June after allegedly trying to switch assignments to avoid participating in the city's gay pride parade. He resigned from the force after his suspension became public." emphasis added
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865622777/Officer-in-parade-controversy-speaks-out-on-religious-liberty.html?pg=all

And this report, originally published in the days following the incident in the The Salt Lake Tribune has a completely different emphasis:

"A Salt Lake City police officer says the department defamed him and violated his rights when he was put on leave after a conflict over his assignment at Sunday's Utah Pride Parade.
"He feels that the same protections that afford individuals to participate in a parade like we had yesterday, are the very constitutional protections that were not afforded to him," Bret Rawson, the officer's attorney, said Monday.
The police department and Rawson have not identified the officer, who made national news last week when the department told The Salt Lake Tribune he had been put on leave for refusing to work an assignment at the annual gay pride parade.
Rawson said the officer did not refuse his assignment — to join other motorcycle officers in choreographed maneuvers at the beginning of the parade — but instead asked his commanders for a "less conspicuous" role at the parade, such as traffic enforcement or security.
"The officer simply felt that the level of participation required in the event could be perceived as endorsing or advocating in favor of the LGBTQ community, a position which made him uncomfortable, given his personal and religious beliefs," Rawson wrote.
"He never refused to do his job," Rawson added in an interview Monday. "He specified that if he was required to do [the motorcycle assignment], he would do that. So he was very surprised that he was put on administrative leave."
Being put on leave and at the center of a "media circus" amounts to "constructive termination," Rawson said — although the officer has not resigned and the department has not officially fired him.
"No reasonable, rational person could stay at work under these circumstances," Rawson said.
The attorney said the officer has not decided what his next steps will be or whether he would challenge the department's actions.
Police spokeswoman Lara Jones said Monday: ""Having received notice of pending litigation, we'll be unable to comment" on the officer's claims. Salt Lake City spokesman Art Raymond said the city received correspondence with "the implication that litigation will be forthcoming." emphasis added
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58047459-78/officer-rawson-parade-department.html.csp

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/28/2015 3:03:01 AM >

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