RE: * What is Bibi's game? (Full Version)

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Zonie63 -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/4/2015 10:14:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The longer term role of the Israel-US alliance is increasingly questioned in US foreign policy circles. One school of thought* holds that:

In recent years, all US Middle Eastern policy has as its #1 priority the promotion of Israeli interests, even if that means downgrading US interests to second place. However Iraq has demonstrated the limited ability of the US to convert military superiority into political advantage. It follows that the US cannot be the leading Power in the region.


Generally not, although much of that has to do with the delicate balance of power in the Middle East that the US has been trying to promote. If US policy in the region was solely limited to supporting and protecting Israel, then the task would be considerably easier. But we also want the oil and to protect the oil fields and transit routes from potential aggressors. This system of dual policies in the region has often worked against itself, which limits and weakens our ability to maintain hegemony. That's why, for decades, US Mid East policy has been a matter of "living from crisis to crisis" without any real end in sight.

quote:


So the US's interest is to develop an balance of power between the region's leading countries - Turkey Iran Saudi Arabia and Israel (internal issues in Egypt keep it off this particular list). We can see the beginnings of this reconsideration of interests in the fight against IS, where longtime enemies and ideological antagonists, the US and Iran are co-operating while Israel is sidelined, not even a player in that particular fight. This is in line with other regional conflicts eg Iraq where Israeli involvement was surplus to needs. Indeed an Israeli presence in Iraq would have proved to be so counter productive it would have led to a fracturing of the 'coalition of the willing'.


That's what makes it all the more complicated, since there are multiple factions and all kinds of strange bedfellows we've ended up with. And the players and whose side they're on can change quite easily. Our installation of the Shah in Iran in 1953 made that country into a close friend and ally of the United States against the Soviet Union, but once he was overthrown, Iran became an enemy overnight. We also helped the Afghan rebels against the Soviet invaders, but they also eventually turned into an enemy. Even Saddam Hussein became a temporary "friend" of the United States due to his war with Iran. But then he became an enemy, too. Once Saddam's regime was out and a US-friendly regime was installed, suddenly they became "our Iraqi allies."

From the US point of view, I think there's a sense of noticeable weariness and skepticism from all this phony Orwellian BS, with shades of "we have always been at war with Eastasia." The interventionists and warmongers seem to be aware of this too, as they're doing all they can to maintain public support for their incoherent dual policy in the Middle East.

quote:


If this analysis has merit, then it follows that Israel will be very uncomfortable with a potential downgrading of its alliance with the US and Netanyahoooooo's complaints and manoeuvres can be seen in this light - one of Israel's goals is to keep Israel's position as a leading Power in the region and to maintain its stranglehold over US policy towards the region, a stranglehold that has served Israeli interests so well, to the detriment of the US's own interests.

OTOH, Obama is more concerned with re-establishing a US policy towards the region that prioritises US interests, in reversing the one sided US-Israel alliance which is proving increasingly counter-productive to US interests and restoring more balance to US policy, in short a US policy that is genuinely American and not one written in Jerusalem

* For a more complete analysis from this perspective see: https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/netanyahu-obama-and-geopolitics-speeches


The article linked here is informative and well-written, and I mostly agree that Netanyahu's speech will not likely have much of a long-term effect on US-Israeli relations. It won't really weaken our relationship, nor will it really strengthen it. Netanyahu's ties to America are probably stronger than most world leaders, as he lived in America and was educated here. He speaks like an American, and he clearly understands the nuances and realities of American politics, both foreign and domestic.

As for the United States, I think it's way past time that we do a serious re-evaluation of our foreign policy and define "US interests" in a more coherent and sensible manner. We've been operating under a reactive "management-by-crisis" philosophy for far too long, and that's been the underlying flaw. We also need to look at it with honest and clear eyes, without the rose-colored glasses or the usual "Captain America making the world safe for democracy" BS. That's the Big Lie that makes all the little lies possible.

As for US-Israeli relations, there are different factions which believe that the US should support Israel for various reasons, not all of which are in accord with each other. Likewise, those who oppose US support of Israel aren't all of one like mind either.

Netanyahu might have to play his cards carefully, not so much because he has to worry about offending a lame duck President, but that it could stir up a larger public debate over US support of Israel in general. Obama doesn't have to worry about this either. He doesn't have to worry about reelection, so whatever happens, he'll likely retire as a respected elder statesman and get book deals and speaking engagements and do pretty well for himself.

I doubt that this will have much of an effect on either party in next year's election, as other issues may hold greater prominence in the eyes of the voters. But the rabid interventionists, war hawks, and the "we-must-support-Israel-because-it's-God's-will" crowd might have their work cut out for them. They want to push for this agenda, but they can't push the voters too much, since that may backfire on them, as more and more people are getting weary of all this and would rather the government focus more on the problems of America than on the problems of the Middle East.




GoddessManko -> RE: What is Bibi's game? (3/4/2015 10:29:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Yeah, that turned out so well with the Norks.

If all they really wanted was some enriched uranium for nuke power they could purchase it from France and Russia for about 18 mil. Far cheaper than what they are trying to do.


As I recall the North Koreans allowed the IAEA into their country and even invited the NY Philharmonic as well as allowing them to play the Star Spangled Banner and then Bush in all his successes called them part of the axis of evil and they thereafter kicked the IAEA out of their country. He was so great with foreign policy after all.




tweakabelle -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/5/2015 4:15:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


As for the United States, I think it's way past time that we do a serious re-evaluation of our foreign policy and define "US interests" in a more coherent and sensible manner. We've been operating under a reactive "management-by-crisis" philosophy for far too long, and that's been the underlying flaw. We also need to look at it with honest and clear eyes, without the rose-colored glasses or the usual "Captain America making the world safe for democracy" BS. That's the Big Lie that makes all the little lies possible.

As for US-Israeli relations, there are different factions which believe that the US should support Israel for various reasons, not all of which are in accord with each other. Likewise, those who oppose US support of Israel aren't all of one like mind either.

Netanyahu might have to play his cards carefully, not so much because he has to worry about offending a lame duck President, but that it could stir up a larger public debate over US support of Israel in general. Obama doesn't have to worry about this either. He doesn't have to worry about reelection, so whatever happens, he'll likely retire as a respected elder statesman and get book deals and speaking engagements and do pretty well for himself.

I doubt that this will have much of an effect on either party in next year's election, as other issues may hold greater prominence in the eyes of the voters. But the rabid interventionists, war hawks, and the "we-must-support-Israel-because-it's-God's-will" crowd might have their work cut out for them. They want to push for this agenda, but they can't push the voters too much, since that may backfire on them, as more and more people are getting weary of all this and would rather the government focus more on the problems of America than on the problems of the Middle East.

Yes. While we may put slightly differing emphases on the causes, there‘s no arguing that current US policy is in ruins. It’s widely ignored in the region, often openly defied by both ‘ally’ and ‘foe’, directionless and lurching, as you put it, from crisis to crisis. I suppose the real question here is whether the current rupture in US-Israel relations will have a lasting effect, resulting in a more realistic policy.

In this respect it’s sad that Obama is nearing the end of his incumbency - had he a few more years it’s possible that Obama could have changed things for the better. However the current divisions are serious. Much more than a mere personality clash, they point to underlying disjunction of interests. As the US becomes less dependent on Middle Eastern oil, as US policy tilts more towards East Asia than the Middle East and the American public becomes more and more disenchanted with both Israeli belligerence and the seemingly endless turmoil of the region, the strategic importance of the region diminishes and the need for strategic partners (read: Israel) lessens. The US’s appetite for “Captain America” type interventions will also diminish, something that both the ‘Arab street’ and the US’s Joe Citizen will welcome. The US political class has become increasingly disenchanted with the one sided nature of the alliance, the strategic and diplomatic costs of protecting Israel from an angry world, and the many humiliations Israel has caused the US in recent years. US policy makers, who are far more realistic privately about the alliance that anyone dares state publicly, might find themselves with an excuse for an indepth examination and reassessment of ME policy.

Netanyahooooo, by politicising the alliance has expedited this process, exposing a sharp crack in a previously rock solid alliance. Bibi is operating with one eye on the forthcoming Israeli elections, where he faces a serious challenge from the Centre-Left. For the first time in years there’s a real prospect of the Israeli Right losing power. Israelis may respond positively to Netanyahoooooo’s speech, approving the way he has presented Israel’s case to its strongest ally. OTOH many Israelis disagree with Netanyahoooo’s assessment of the ‘Iranian threat’ and may blame Netanyahooooo for his brinkmanship in endangering the US alliance. We’ll find out the answer to that one in the Israeli elections in a few weeks time.

So it seems to me that the consequences of Netanyahooooo’s brinkmanship may be more profound than your post indicates. These consequences may be exacerbated if, as seems probable at the moment, the negotiations with Iran arrive at a successful conclusion. That will further isolate both Netanyahoooo and the US’s neo-cons, Israel-firsters and assorted hawks and interventionist, the war mongers on both sides of the Atlantic.

Given a choice between a reasonable agreement or confrontation with Iran, there doesn’t seem to me to be much doubt about which option ordinary war-weary Americans would choose.

Given the level of opposition to Netanyahoooooo’s belligerence on Iran both at the level of the security establishment in Israel and among ordinary Israelis, it may turn out to be the case that Netanyahoooo might have finally bitten off far more than he can chew.




truckinslave -> RE: What is Bibi's game? (3/6/2015 10:28:22 AM)

I think H. 0bama0's facility with the US Constitution was best expressed by SCOTUS when they ruled 9-0 against his recess appointments to the NLRB.

Some of the quotes supporting the appointments are timeless classics...




mnottertail -> RE: What is Bibi's game? (3/6/2015 11:07:04 AM)

I think it was better expressed when the rightwing SCOTUS told the rightwing Nazi shiteaters to suck a wad of cowpiss vis a vis Obamacare.




Kirata -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/7/2015 3:20:21 PM)


~ FR ~

Ex-Mossad chief calls Netanyahu’s Iran speech ‘bullshit’

Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan lambasted Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in a Channel 2 interview previewed Thursday, calling his speech before Congress “bullshit,” and charging that his policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians endangered the Zionist dream...

The former spymaster, who spent eight years at the helm of Israel’s shadowy intelligence agency, will lead a Tel Aviv rally Saturday night to advocate a change of government. He has been an outspoken critic of Netanyahu in the past, calling Netanyahu’s judgment on Iran into question.

In a snippet from Dagan’s reaction to Netanyahu’s speech to the US Congress on Tuesday — which he watched alongside a Channel 2 reporter — Dagan can be seen muttering at the screen “bullshit” after Netanyahu makes a point on Iran’s progress in its nuclear program.


K.




Sanity -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/7/2015 3:45:16 PM)


From your source:

quote:

In response, Netanyahu’s Likud party issued a statement accusing Dagan of deceiving the public and noted that the prime minister has worked tirelessly in his efforts to ensure Israel’s continued security.

“Meir Dagan is wrong and misleading,” the statement read.

Netanyahu does not “give in to international pressure” and will not hand over land to the Palestinians because areas submitted to them today will “come under the control of radical Islam and terror groups backed by Iran tomorrow.”

“The prime minister’s speech at Congress reverberated around the world and enunciated the dangers faced by Israel and the world as a result of a bad agreement. There is no doubt that [Netanyahu] challenged the major powers to address these dangers,” the press release stated.




Kirata -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/7/2015 3:51:04 PM)


Who would ever have guessed?

K.




tweakabelle -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/7/2015 10:42:00 PM)

Netanyahoooo has been claiming that an Iranian nuke was "less than a year away" to anyone stupid enough to listen to him since 1991. So he has either been lying or wrong consistently for about a quarter of a century now.

Netanyahooooo's own security and spy agencies, and the US's spooks and security agencies are all agreed that Iran is not building a nuke now. Yet Netanyahooooooo insists they are wrong and he is right (even though Netanyahoooooo's information comes from the very spooks who insist that Iran is not building a nuke).

Is there any reason why someone with such a dismal record of lying/being wrong should suddenly be given credibility now? Is it a coincidence that alarmism about Iran's intentions suits Netanyahooooo's political interests and agenda perfectly? Is it relevant to recall that even among politicians Netanyahooooooo enjoys a reputation of being a liar?




Politesub53 -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/8/2015 5:01:16 PM)

The dopes in the West that believe all netanyahu says is true seem to have forgotten he is playing to the electorate in Israel right now.




kdsub -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/8/2015 5:45:30 PM)

But... it is wise to remember he represents the majority in his country... so like him...trust him...or not... but you can't dismiss him. Obama has shown his weakness in International politics especially in the Middle East for even allowing this embarrassment and affront by the Republican party to happen.

Personally I believe Netanyahu is right about Iran and I also think he believes it and is just trying to do what he thinks best for his country...but he is too late I'm afraid.

I do however believe the fault is not with Obama but with previous Republican administrations. The Iranian capability should have been taken out long before they could build reinforced bunkers that may be next to impossible to take out without using nuclear devices. Otherwise the time for surgical strikes have past..it will take an all out war now. Soooo with the fuck up we are presented with negotiating from weakness is our only option outside of total war.

Butch




PeonForHer -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/8/2015 7:34:02 PM)

quote:

Netanyahooooo


I have to say that at times I get the sense that you don't very much like Mr Netanyahu, Tweakable. You do tend to be rather rude about him on occasion, I've felt. Poor show. :-(




PeonForHer -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/8/2015 7:40:48 PM)

Hoy PS, have you noted the British actor who is the spitting image of Netanyeehah? He does character parts - nowadays, always as some kind of politician. But he was once the 'Bradford' in the 'Bradford and Bingley' adverts. The resemblance is uncanny: I'm almost surprised that the man hasn't been taken out by Hamas by now.




Politesub53 -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/9/2015 5:27:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But... it is wise to remember he represents the majority in his country... so like him...trust him...or not... but you can't dismiss him. Obama has shown his weakness in International politics especially in the Middle East for even allowing this embarrassment and affront by the Republican party to happen.

Personally I believe Netanyahu is right about Iran and I also think he believes it and is just trying to do what he thinks best for his country...but he is too late I'm afraid.

I do however believe the fault is not with Obama but with previous Republican administrations. The Iranian capability should have been taken out long before they could build reinforced bunkers that may be next to impossible to take out without using nuclear devices. Otherwise the time for surgical strikes have past..it will take an all out war now. Soooo with the fuck up we are presented with negotiating from weakness is our only option outside of total war.

Butch



Firstly, less than 25% of votes went to his party. Secondly you seem to have been taken in by all his bullshit re Iran and nuclear devices.




Politesub53 -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/9/2015 5:28:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Hoy PS, have you noted the British actor who is the spitting image of Netanyeehah? He does character parts - nowadays, always as some kind of politician. But he was once the 'Bradford' in the 'Bradford and Bingley' adverts. The resemblance is uncanny: I'm almost surprised that the man hasn't been taken out by Hamas by now.


He would have been if he had stayed in Bradford or come to that, Bingley, dont you think ? [;)]




kdsub -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/9/2015 5:39:35 PM)

quote:

Iran and nuclear devices.


Yes

All that counts is the final results of an election... We will see soon... What will you say if he wins again? At what point do you say he speaks for the majority of his nation... Otherwise you are a fool to believe HE is the cause and perpetrator of this conflict.. Like it or not it is the majority of the people of Israel until an election says differently.

Butch




Politesub53 -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/9/2015 5:42:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Iran and nuclear devices.


Yes

All that counts is the final results of an election... We will see soon... What will you say if he wins again? At what point do you say he speaks for the majority of his nation... Otherwise you are a fool to believe HE is the cause and perpetrator of this conflict.. Like it or not it is the majority of the people of Israel until an election says differently.

Butch


FFS Butch, 23% isnt a majority, any idiot can understand that, like it or not. Hopefully the more tolerant Israeli Parties get in and start some serious peace talks.




kdsub -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/9/2015 5:52:42 PM)

By their system he is the man... still more are with him than against him...It is up to the people to make changes... I am just asking you what you will say if they do not?

It just bugs me when people blame individuals in democracies...Yes I blame Bush for a lot... But I also realize, and did then, that he had the majority support of the American people...and the bottom line was we were at fault for electing him and doing it again... Same with Israel.

Butch




Politesub53 -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/9/2015 5:56:35 PM)

Lmfao........23 % isnt more, its less, HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN.




Politesub53 -> RE: * What is Bibi's game? (3/9/2015 5:59:52 PM)

So now the American Public are wrong for electing Bush on his initial manifesto which claimed nothing on an illegal invasion into Iraq.

Thats a mighty big insult to all of your countrymen and your armed forces. The only people who knew the plans Bush and Co had in mind were Bush and Co.......




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