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US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 9:50:09 AM

KenDckey

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http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/Matthews_op22.pdf

The military has a history, going back to 1825 of securing the border from intrusion. I am never going to say that it was totally against illegal immigration, or that the actions taken by some commanders were appropriate.

That being said, what if Obama suspended Posse Comitatus (might take congressional approval, not sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act and used the military to assist in protecting the border from interlopers?

Personally, I think this might be a good idea.

Post #: 1

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 9:50:56 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
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He cannot suspend that. Takes an act of congress.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 2

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 9:56:27 AM

KenDckey

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like I said, I wasn't sure

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 3

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 10:02:08 AM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/Matthews_op22.pdf

The military has a history, going back to 1825 of securing the border from intrusion. I am never going to say that it was totally against illegal immigration, or that the actions taken by some commanders were appropriate.

That being said, what if Obama suspended Posse Comitatus (might take congressional approval, not sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act and used the military to assist in protecting the border from interlopers?

Personally, I think this might be a good idea.

Why would Posse Comitatus need to be suspended?

Article 4 Section 4:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

You don't think that 11 million and more every day counts as an invasion?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 4

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 10:09:48 AM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/Matthews_op22.pdf

The military has a history, going back to 1825 of securing the border from intrusion. I am never going to say that it was totally against illegal immigration, or that the actions taken by some commanders were appropriate.

That being said, what if Obama suspended Posse Comitatus (might take congressional approval, not sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act and used the military to assist in protecting the border from interlopers?

Personally, I think this might be a good idea.

Why would Posse Comitatus need to be suspended?

Article 4 Section 4:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

You don't think that 11 million and more every day counts as an invasion?

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, as I read the brief on the legislation it applied to State laws, not federal laws. Immigration is a federal issue as we have seen repeatedly where the Fed doesn't want (unless invited) states and local jurisdictions to interfere

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 5

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 10:14:05 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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The 11 million and more every day was not an invasion under Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush, et al.

Hardly new stuff. Obama is still the deporter-in-chief, by a landslide. Although I do not think it is a Posse Comitatus violation to storm corporations that employ these people and jail and fine everyone in the building.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/11/2015 10:16:48 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 6

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 10:55:13 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
You don't think that 11 million and more every day counts as an invasion?

Have you ever seen a million people? In one place?

Now times that by ten.

If 11 million people enter this nation in a day, then how many have come in, within the last year? Go ahead, do the math....

Why are these people coming to the United States? Most of them, when asked are fleeing from else where. So why are they fleeing from else where?

When you get done with those questions, consider the following:

According to a UNM study a few years ago (I'll be amazed if I can find it now....) it found some strikingly interesting stuff about illegal immigrants becoming citizens. This was back during the debate over the McCain/Kennedy immigration bill of 2007. The study found that if such illegal immigrants were given citizenship (through that bill or another), five in six would become Democrat voters. One in six would either be Republican or some other political party.

If that is true, it would explain why Republicans are so against illegal immigrants. The higher ups used their political propaganda machines (i.e. FOX 'news') to spread the message of not giving amnesty to Mexicans and other minorities (i.e. non-whites). In typical racist conservative fashion, the message not only was received, but programmed into the minds of conservatives. Since that time to the present, that programming of minds has expanded far and deep. Most not even realizing.....why...they are against immigrants coming to the nation.

Yes, the immigration laws need a REAL update and overhaul. Its not going to happen as conservatives and liberals solely decide. It will be decided upon the nation as a whole. An I sincerely hope we have good people deciding on things rather than tyrants! But with the Republicans controlling Congress I'm guessing thats not likely to happen before 2016.

I've met many immigrants. All of them tend to be good people. They have their quirks and views on things like anyone else. I've even met one or two that had hopped the border. They explained why. It was for noble and good reasons. Its to bad many conservatives would throw these two back across the board without even listening to their story. The hatred of non-whites by conservatives is unfortunately, very deep.

Oh, and as a sign note:

I found a few years ago that illegal immigrants were paying the IRS income taxes voluntarily. There is a provision within the IRS to file taxes even if you are not required to. I know for conservatives and more importantly libertarians would have a tough time fathoming the idea. But as I see it, they wish to show 'good faith' of their intentions. Their kids are in the schools, using the play grounds, and other things. So they pay, what meager amounts they have and hold themselves to a higher level to pay taxes. Likewise, they pay all taxes any of us would pay for gas, smokes, and other items.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 7

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 11:05:53 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/Matthews_op22.pdf

The military has a history, going back to 1825 of securing the border from intrusion. I am never going to say that it was totally against illegal immigration, or that the actions taken by some commanders were appropriate.

That being said, what if Obama suspended Posse Comitatus (might take congressional approval, not sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act and used the military to assist in protecting the border from interlopers?

Personally, I think this might be a good idea.

The time to have gotten good border security was when the Democrats were pushing the Affordable Care Act through Congress. Conservatives wanted border security, Liberals wanted healthcare. Seems like a no-brainier to myself. Instead, most conservatives and libertarians were against the healthcare bill so deeply, that it overrides the ability to think clearly for them. If a sensible and intelligent bill from Republicans was put forth to President Obama and Democrats at the time as ''payment' for not opposing the ACA, I think it would have gone through.

But they didn't.

Because that would have been, behaving like an adult in Congress. And most Republicans were not even doing that!

I would be opposed to placing US Troops (or even the Reserves) on active policing duty. Their job is not to be police officers but to defend this nation from domestic and foreign attacks. If those states wish to guard their border, they can deploy the National Guard.

Arizona is one of these 'Republican enclaves' that wants to pay as little in taxes as possible, but demand the nation pay for many of its problems. Perhaps if they behaved less as n-A-Z-i's and more as Americans, they might have an easier time.

Why should I, in Massachusetts, pay for the troops to patrol a border in Arizona? Last I checked, the port of Boston, has international commerce every day. We have less than 5% of shipping containers checked. If US Soldiers are to be deployed along the Southern border of the United States, than I want them ALSO deployed in Boston. I'm sure you and other conservative/libertarians would be....MORE THAN HAPPY.....to pay for US Soldiers to defend our borders and that OTHER land border we have from Washington to Maine. DEAL?

< Message edited by joether -- 3/11/2015 11:08:04 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 8

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 1:20:00 PM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/Matthews_op22.pdf

The military has a history, going back to 1825 of securing the border from intrusion. I am never going to say that it was totally against illegal immigration, or that the actions taken by some commanders were appropriate.

That being said, what if Obama suspended Posse Comitatus (might take congressional approval, not sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act and used the military to assist in protecting the border from interlopers?

Personally, I think this might be a good idea.

It's been discussed in politics off and on for many years now, although our history regarding our borders might be a bit more complicated. Going back to 1825, our border with Mexico was in a quite different location than where it is now. And even then, even if the "border" had been delineated on a map, it didn't mean that there was any actual control over it. There was no fence, and the military and most human settlements were scattered and sparse on both sides.

Of course, the military was used in the Mexican War, which ultimately established our current border with Mexico, and there may have been a few instances since then where the military might have been necessary, such as in WW1 when there were fears that Germany might goad Mexico into attacking the United States. While that was not likely to happen, I can see that as being a legitimate use of the military to guard the border, if there's fear that their military or some other significantly large armed force could penetrate the border.

Much of it would depend upon whether our relationship with the Mexican government was on good terms or not. If we consider ourselves on good terms with Mexico, then mobilizing our troops along their border may not be considered a friendly act on our part. Our government approved NAFTA and ostensibly considers Mexico to be a close ally and friend of the United States, although not everyone seems to agree with that, based on the differences of opinion regarding border policies and immigration. There are still some on both sides who view the other with mistrust and suspicion. Overall, I think things are generally okay and reasonably peaceful, although there have been a few incidents along the border. But if we overreact or push things too far, it might not go so well.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 9

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 2:08:00 PM

DesideriScuri

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Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/Matthews_op22.pdf
The military has a history, going back to 1825 of securing the border from intrusion. I am never going to say that it was totally against illegal immigration, or that the actions taken by some commanders were appropriate.
That being said, what if Obama suspended Posse Comitatus (might take congressional approval, not sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act and used the military to assist in protecting the border from interlopers?
Personally, I think this might be a good idea.

From the Wiki link:

quote:

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed into law on June 18, 1878 by President Rutherford B. Hayes. The purpose of the act – in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807 – is to limit the powers of the federal government in using its military personnel to enforce the state laws.

The key phrase is "to enforce the state laws." That's not the same as enforcing Federal laws. Since immigration law is Federal law, and the USBP is a Federal agency, it shouldn't be difficult to use the military as quasi-Border Patrol officers.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 10

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 2:14:53 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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I'm not sanguine about assigning troops to missions where they are expected to function as policemen or social workers. We could, however, augment the Border Patrol by transferring DEA agents to more useful service than their present costly and misguided employment.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/11/2015 2:19:39 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 11

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 2:28:23 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

No, the key phrase in your untutored parsing of wiki rather than the law is: 1878.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385

^^^that is the posse comitatus law as it exists in 2015.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 12

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 3:08:02 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

Joe

AZ is one of the states that got sued by the fed for attempting to help the fed enforce fed immigration law.

Yes, I even stated that the posse comitatus constrained was constrained and kept the military from enforcing state laws.

I do disagree with your reading where it is referring to 11 million. I believe that it is saying that the 11 million figure is growiing daily.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 13

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 8:25:13 PM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Joe

AZ is one of the states that got sued by the fed for attempting to help the fed enforce fed immigration law.

They were not really helping the Fed, but rather circumventing the process. When a person is suspected of being an illegal immigrant, that person is entitled to all the same rights you or I are given, if arrested. They have a right to a lawyer, a court, and to have things explained to them if English is not a language they speak. Arizona ignored quite a few of these federal safeguards the the government took them to task for it. More so, the Arizona guys were stepping on the Fed's toes on the border. Obviously, the Fed didn't want an accidentally shooting of 'friendlies' due to the different departments not communicating correctly.

AZ got more and more hyper on things and the Fed told them to 'chill'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Yes, I even stated that the posse comitatus constrained was constrained and kept the military from enforcing state laws.

The US Military would not be enforcing state laws, but federal laws. Last I checked its the 'United States of America' not 'Lets all bow down to Arizona State'. The Fed would not be enforcing state laws either; they enforce federal laws. Arizona's law enforcement must however enforce state and federal laws, including 'how an arrest person is handled'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I do disagree with your reading where it is referring to 11 million. I believe that it is saying that the 11 million figure is growiing daily.

Aylee made the comment of 11 million flooding into the nation each day. And I pointed out that is a staggeringly large number. If 11 million were swarming across the border each day, this nation would have twice its population in just two months flat! Do you have....ANY...idea the logistical support to handle that number? We are talking shelter, food, water, electricity, guards, medicine, cloths, and transportation back to their original nation. Do you know how much that would cost?

We aren't paying that cost, because there is not 11 million people swarming across the border each day! Not even 10,000 cross the border in a day! Conservative media hypes the numbers to push fear; because they know fear 'news' stories force conservatives to watch their programming more. If they are watching the programming, they are watching the advertisements. These companies have done their market research. Not to mention psychologically profiling American voters. They know what REALLY makes people tune into their stations for more information and communication of ideas. Conservatives seem more prone to fears than moderates or liberals. Not to say that moderates and liberals don't have fears; its what is feared that generates interest.

I liked the McCain/Kennedy immigration bill. It was a good compromise to handling the existing immigrant population in the nation, and how to handle the future ones. People shot it down because they were told to think that way, NOT because they actually read the bill! Yeah, I read the bill....

Likewise, why are these people fleeing their country of origin?

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 14

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/11/2015 8:34:26 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

Is growing Not comeing daily. Is growing. Soon it might just reach 12 million.

As to why theya re fleeing their country? Lots of different reasons. If they have a case, then bolster the judicial process and made a determination. Don't givve them a date to return and turn them loose. We usuallyd on't do that with criminals. And isn't entering this country a criminal act? Last I heard it was.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 15

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 12:10:45 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Joe

AZ is one of the states that got sued by the fed for attempting to help the fed enforce fed immigration law.

They were not really helping the Fed, but rather circumventing the process. When a person is suspected of being an illegal immigrant, that person is entitled to all the same rights you or I are given, if arrested. They have a right to a lawyer, a court, and to have things explained to them if English is not a language they speak. Arizona ignored quite a few of these federal safeguards the the government took them to task for it. More so, the Arizona guys were stepping on the Fed's toes on the border. Obviously, the Fed didn't want an accidentally shooting of 'friendlies' due to the different departments not communicating correctly.

AZ got more and more hyper on things and the Fed told them to 'chill'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Yes, I even stated that the posse comitatus constrained was constrained and kept the military from enforcing state laws.

The US Military would not be enforcing state laws, but federal laws. Last I checked its the 'United States of America' not 'Lets all bow down to Arizona State'. The Fed would not be enforcing state laws either; they enforce federal laws. Arizona's law enforcement must however enforce state and federal laws, including 'how an arrest person is handled'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I do disagree with your reading where it is referring to 11 million. I believe that it is saying that the 11 million figure is growiing daily.

Aylee made the comment of 11 million flooding into the nation each day. And I pointed out that is a staggeringly large number. If 11 million were swarming across the border each day, this nation would have twice its population in just two months flat! Do you have....ANY...idea the logistical support to handle that number? We are talking shelter, food, water, electricity, guards, medicine, cloths, and transportation back to their original nation. Do you know how much that would cost?

We aren't paying that cost, because there is not 11 million people swarming across the border each day! Not even 10,000 cross the border in a day! Conservative media hypes the numbers to push fear; because they know fear 'news' stories force conservatives to watch their programming more. If they are watching the programming, they are watching the advertisements. These companies have done their market research. Not to mention psychologically profiling American voters. They know what REALLY makes people tune into their stations for more information and communication of ideas. Conservatives seem more prone to fears than moderates or liberals. Not to say that moderates and liberals don't have fears; its what is feared that generates interest.

I liked the McCain/Kennedy immigration bill. It was a good compromise to handling the existing immigrant population in the nation, and how to handle the future ones. People shot it down because they were told to think that way, NOT because they actually read the bill! Yeah, I read the bill....

Likewise, why are these people fleeing their country of origin?

While it is possible to interpret 11 million and more every day as over 11 million a day, a person not looking for an excuse to ridicule would see that she meant that there were 11 million here and more coming in every day.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 16

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 6:38:44 AM

MercTech

Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, the key phrase in your untutored parsing of wiki rather than the law is: 1878.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385

^^^that is the posse comitatus law as it exists in 2015.

The more inclusive restrictions are at:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/182.6#a_1_iii

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 17

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 6:39:53 AM

MercTech

Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, the key phrase in your untutored parsing of wiki rather than the law is: 1878.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385

^^^that is the posse comitatus law as it exists in 2015.

The more inclusive restrictions are at:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/182.6#a_1_iii

One just might finagle the point on posse comitatus if the border abutted federal lands.

(in reply to MercTech)

Post #: 18

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 7:37:31 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Is growing Not comeing daily. Is growing. Soon it might just reach 12 million.

As to why theya re fleeing their country? Lots of different reasons. If they have a case, then bolster the judicial process and made a determination. Don't givve them a date to return and turn them loose. We usuallyd on't do that with criminals. And isn't entering this country a criminal act? Last I heard it was.

You have never heard it was. It is a civil matter.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 19

RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 9:40:11 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

FR

Something that is being ignored in this conversation (except by CD) is that the inherent reason for the military is to protect the border.
What purpose of posse comitatus was to keep the military from being deployed against US citizens in place of law enforcement.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 20

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