RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 3:31:03 AM)

The Saudis and Qataris have been largely responsible for financing and arming IS in Syria, where they use IS as a kind of proxy Sunni army. IS's extension into Shia dominated Iraq won't have caused any sleepless nights in Saudi Arabia or Qatar, where it is viewed as a noble struggle against Iranian expansion.

Sooner or later the West is going to have to confront the reality that its erstwhile allies in the region are the main backers of the horrific IS. Thus far, no one in Washington or the EU has shown any appetite for this but in the longer term it is unavoidable.

Why are the Saudis and Qataris backing IS? They view the new (ie. post Saddam) regime in Baghdad as an Iranian proxy, which 'stole' the country from its 'rightful' Sunni rulers and re-aligned it with Teheran. Most of the Sunni Gulf countries have large Shia minorities or as in Bahrain's case, a Shia majority which are seen as Iranian pawns subverting Sunni dominance. They feel directly threatened by the new Shia axis of Iran Iraq and Syria, and fear that this axis will influence their restive Shia populations into rebellion against Sunni rulers. The contest for power in these countries is taking place behind a veneer of religious difference.

One should also note that the various Sunni rulers view the US's attempts to rebalance its role in the region with alarm. The security screen offered by alliance with the US no longer seems so reassuring to them. For these rulers the struggle is seen as an existential one, hence their preparedness to get into bed with such loathsome types as IS (not that any one should delude themselves for an instant that the same Sunni rulers are paragons of virtue. They aren't and many of them inhabit the same moral cesspit as IS, Israel and other regional power brokers).

The West needs to take a long hard look at their supposed allies in the region, have a searching examination of their so-called allies in the region, from Israel through to the Saudis, Qataris and all the other Gulf tin pot potentates and devise diplomatic and strategic policies that promote the West's real interests and create alliances in the region based on values and interests not short term expediency and raw material needs.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 7:26:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So you really think Saudi and Qatar are going after IS and AQ.
Thats a bold claim but pretty stupid given their policy so far, dont you think.


What's really a stupid claim is that Muslims aren't going after Muslim extremists. I get that Sunni and Shia don't much care for each other, and that has been going on for quite some time (wasn't that the basis for the Iran-Iraq War we (the US anyway) meddled in and created the Saddam Hussein reign?).

It's too bad you can't see that Muslims are fighting against Muslim extremists. It really is a welcome sight.



mnottertail -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 7:36:16 AM)

Polite is correct, this is not a war of extremists vs moderates or lightweights, it is a Sunni/Shia war.



Politesub53 -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 4:17:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So you really think Saudi and Qatar are going after IS and AQ.
Thats a bold claim but pretty stupid given their policy so far, dont you think.


What's really a stupid claim is that Muslims aren't going after Muslim extremists. I get that Sunni and Shia don't much care for each other, and that has been going on for quite some time (wasn't that the basis for the Iran-Iraq War we (the US anyway) meddled in and created the Saddam Hussein reign?).

It's too bad you can't see that Muslims are fighting against Muslim extremists. It really is a welcome sight.



Your still talking crap........ the Houti are not Muslim extremists, Saudi are not going after either IS or AQ, who are Muslim extremists.




dcnovice -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 5:25:00 PM)

quote:

Sooner or later the West is going to have to confront the reality that its erstwhile allies in the region are the main backers of the horrific IS. Thus far, no one in Washington or the EU has shown any appetite for this but in the longer term it is unavoidable.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9481542/swedens-feminist-foreign-minister-has-dared-to-tell-the-truth-about-saudi-arabia-what-happens-now-concerns-us-all/



PeonForHer -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 5:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Sooner or later the West is going to have to confront the reality that its erstwhile allies in the region are the main backers of the horrific IS. Thus far, no one in Washington or the EU has shown any appetite for this but in the longer term it is unavoidable.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9481542/swedens-feminist-foreign-minister-has-dared-to-tell-the-truth-about-saudi-arabia-what-happens-now-concerns-us-all/


Indeed. Western tongues have been comfortably ensconced these regimes' anuses for far too long.



kdsub -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 6:22:09 PM)

Peon this is not true, at least here on the boards... but... when people here say anything negative about these regimes they are shouted down as anti-Islamic or war mongers.

Butch



PeonForHer -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 6:26:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Peon this is not true, at least here on the boards... but... when people here say anything negative about these regimes they are shouted down as anti-Islamic or war mongers.

Butch


I can't say I've noticed that, Butch.

Islam as a whole: no. These regimes? They deserve a royal kicking.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 6:30:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Personally, I think that Obama wants Yemen to fall and become a province of ISIS. That is why we aren't in the fight from the beginning.


Follow the (missing) money.



BamaD -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 6:34:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So you really think Saudi and Qatar are going after IS and AQ.
Thats a bold claim but pretty stupid given their policy so far, dont you think.


What's really a stupid claim is that Muslims aren't going after Muslim extremists. I get that Sunni and Shia don't much care for each other, and that has been going on for quite some time (wasn't that the basis for the Iran-Iraq War we (the US anyway) meddled in and created the Saddam Hussein reign?).

It's too bad you can't see that Muslims are fighting against Muslim extremists. It really is a welcome sight.


We did not create the Saddam Hussein reign, he was already in power, what we did do is keep him in the war and in the end weakened his military while containing Iraq. It is great when you can help your enemies kill each other, just ask the Brits.
But I agree, the extremists can only be truly stopped by the moderates.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 7:13:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Saudi deploys 100 fighter jets, 150,000 soldiers for anti-Houthi campaign

Saudi Arabia deployed 100 fighter jets, 150,000 soldiers and other navy units on Thursday, after it launched its operation against the Houthi rebels in Yemen, Al Arabiya News Channel reported. The Saudi aerial deployment enabled the Royal Saudi Air Force to take control of Yemen’s airspace early Thursday...

In their joint statement Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar and Kuwait said they “decided to repel Houthi militias, al-Qaeda and ISIS [Islamic State of Iraq and Syria] in the country.” The Gulf states warned that the Houthi coup in Yemen represented a “major threat” to the region’s stability...

The UAE contributed 30 fighter jets, Bahrain 15, Kuwaiti 15, Qatar 10 and Jordan 6 in the operation. On Thursday, Egypt, Pakistan, Jordan and Sudan also expressed their readiness to participate on the ground in Yemen.

Turkey, Egypt join military operation against Houthis in Yemen

Turkey offered its support to Saudi Arabia's military offensive against Houthi rebels in Yemen on Thursday, calling on the militia group and its "foreign supporters" to stop acting in ways that disturbed security and peace in the region...

Saudi warplanes continued to bomb the Houthis on Thursday as part of their offensive "Storm of Resolve" to weaken the Shiite rebels fighting against President Abed Rabbo Mansour Hadi.

Four naval vessels were additionally being sent from Egypt and were expected to reach the Red Sea by Thursday evening to secure the Gulf of Aden after Hadi's supporters regained control of its airport from the rebels, who had occupied it on Wednesday.

Iran demands immediate halt to military actions in Yemen

Iran demanded an immediate halt to Saudi-led military operations in Yemen on Thursday and said it would make all necessary efforts to control the crisis there, Iranian news agencies reported . . . "The Saudi-led air strikes should stop immediately," the Students News Agency ISNA quoted Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif as saying . . . Tehran denies providing money and training to the Shi'ite Houthi militia, as alleged by some Western and Yemeni officials.

There are ten nations involved at present, and Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has stated that any threat to Saudi Arabia's territorial integrity would evoke a "strong response" from (nuclear) Pakistan.

K.




But they refuse to cooperate in any fight against ISIS.



kdsub -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 7:59:07 PM)

Peon it is hard to criticize these regimes without criticizing the religion that often mandates what would be called atrocities in the western world...And to some extent guides the governing as well. When I have done that it inevitably leads to ... well Christians are no better... look at the Protestant and Catholics in Northern Ireland and all the atrocities committed in the past by Christians...blah blah blah. Even though this has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Or I always get the blind monkey saying... It is only a few radicals among billions crap.

You CANNOT separate the religion of Islam from these regimes... it is the guiding force and the direct cause of the very atrocities we are seeing in the area... It needs to be criticized without making excuses for the backwardness, barbarism, and intolerance inherent in this religion throughout the Middle East and Asia.

Butch



dcnovice -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 8:12:36 PM)

quote:

it is the guiding force and the direct cause of the very atrocities we are seeing in the area

Then shouldn't we be seeing the same thing in every other Muslim country on Earth?



GoddessManko -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 8:17:04 PM)

Right dc, there is logic in numbers. 1 in 6 people are muslim yet only 15% live in Arab nations and Hezbollah only has 10k members. Extremist groups work the same as gangs. They target the poor and socially/politically disenfranchised.



kdsub -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 8:21:00 PM)

Where do you not DC



kdsub -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 8:32:54 PM)

It seems to me in every country with a significant Muslim population there are problems... In China they are hacking people to death at train stations... in Afghanistan they are beating women to death in the streets for defacing a Koran... In Pakistan they are murdering children in schools... In India they murder people in hotels...In France they murder over cartoons... In the US they blow off legs at a marathon... In England they blow up subways and murder in the streets...In Indonesia they burn churches with the people in them... Hell there are but a few countries where they live at peace with non-Muslims and even there they discriminate.

It is the religion that is the problem and nothing else.

Butch



MrRodgers -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 10:51:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Maybe that corner has been turned? Muslims are fighting against Muslim extremists. Wish it would have come sooner, but glad it's happening anyway.



Why is it always me who has to put you people straight. Saudi and Qatar, Americas allies, are funding extremism on the one hand and denying doing so on the other.

There are no Muslims fighting extremists Muslims in Yemen, it is Sunni versus Shia, Saudi versus Iran. Plain and simple, why else do you think a military as well established as Saudi let AQ operate in its own back yard. Still, its great news for the arms trade huh. [8|]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html


.....and the bankers, financing both sides. Well at least as much as they can.

I mean we were being told that ISIS was getting funding through selling oil. Well, just who the hell was buying it ? Did anybody seem to give fuck ?



MrRodgers -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/28/2015 11:06:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So you really think Saudi and Qatar are going after IS and AQ.
Thats a bold claim but pretty stupid given their policy so far, dont you think.


What's really a stupid claim is that Muslims aren't going after Muslim extremists. I get that Sunni and Shia don't much care for each other, and that has been going on for quite some time (wasn't that the basis for the Iran-Iraq War we (the US anyway) meddled in and created the Saddam Hussein reign?).

It's too bad you can't see that Muslims are fighting against Muslim extremists. It really is a welcome sight.


We did not create the Saddam Hussein reign, he was already in power, what we did do is keep him in the war and in the end weakened his military while containing Iraq. It is great when you can help your enemies kill each other, just ask the Brits.
But I agree, the extremists can only be truly stopped by the moderates.

Saddam was a CIA protege.

"United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

US intelligence helped Saddam's Ba`ath Party seize power for the first time in 1963. Evidence suggests that Saddam was on the CIA payroll as early as 1959, when he participated in a failed assassination attempt against Iraqi strongman Abd al-Karim Qassem."

Here



tweakabelle -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/29/2015 9:00:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Sooner or later the West is going to have to confront the reality that its erstwhile allies in the region are the main backers of the horrific IS. Thus far, no one in Washington or the EU has shown any appetite for this but in the longer term it is unavoidable.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9481542/swedens-feminist-foreign-minister-has-dared-to-tell-the-truth-about-saudi-arabia-what-happens-now-concerns-us-all/

Great article. Thanks for the link dc.

The article focusses on the great yawning silence one hears whenever criticism of the medieval barbaric regime in Saudi Arabia is aired. It is sickening to see our politicians pander to thuggish House of Saud as they attempt to procure arms contracts and to ensure continued Saudi patronage of the Western Banking system.

Does anyone hear any Western criticism of the Saudi led intervention in Yemen? Or the Saudi led invasion of Bahrain and ensuing brutal repression of Bahrain's majority Shia population? Or has any one heard any Western leader complain publicly about Saudi financing and arming IS in Syria? The Saudis seem to get a free pass on everything. Just another example of Western hypocrisy and Saudi duplicity. Disgusting.



tweakabelle -> RE: Things are getting hot fast in the Middle East (3/29/2015 9:25:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It seems to me in every country with a significant Muslim population there are problems... In China they are hacking people to death at train stations... in Afghanistan they are beating women to death in the streets for defacing a Koran... In Pakistan they are murdering children in schools... In India they murder people in hotels...In France they murder over cartoons... In the US they blow off legs at a marathon... In England they blow up subways and murder in the streets...In Indonesia they burn churches with the people in them... Hell there are but a few countries where they live at peace with non-Muslims and even there they discriminate.

It is the religion that is the problem and nothing else.

Butch

Tens of thousands of Tunisians marched against terrorism today, following the brutal attack on tourists and visitors to the Brado museum in Tunis.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32105232

I really wish those that pontificate about events in the ME and insist that Islam is responsible in terrorism and violence took the time to acquaint themselves with what is really happening in the region. Their attacks on Islam are ill-informed and irresponsible. Worse, they militate against understanding of the region and point away from realistic viable solutions



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