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RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 4:48:28 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall

As I said, a statement of belief won't cut it.

Well then, since your claims themselves are merely statements of belief, you should be able to appreciate why they don't cut it.

K.



My "claims" follow logically from observation and deduction (drawn from lack of contradictory evidence), as such they are arguments. Religious apologists have no arguments, and having no arguments you have resorted to the sadly predictable ad hominem attacks. Don't die ignorant.



All you are missing is a tambourine and a platform and you could take your act on the road. But don't let that slow you down any, go ahead and preach it brother nthrall. You save those fools from themselves and show them the light.

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 4:56:46 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		He asked you some questions that I notice you haven't bothered to answer yet. Not a very good start. I mean how are you going to get more followers if you ignore people like that? And if you don't have followers you can't have a potluck. Sorry dude but it sounds like your church is going to suck. Preaching at people is only going to get you so far.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 8:02:25 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		I prefer the term Spiritual, non religious for a number of reasons. I don't ground myself in any one particular religion. I think spirituality without the religion for myself, like science, can correct past assumptions. I get some militant atheists find any form of spirituality, to be for the simpletons. Maybe there is nothing out there and maybe there is. I leave myself open to the possibility of either option. However, I won't claim to be a militant atheist as much as I won't claim to be of any particular religion. My beliefs can be fluid. What I may have believed when I was younger, may not what I believe today. What I believe today, may not be what I believe when I am older. I value science. It has a very important role. I see no contradictions personally between science and spirituality.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 8:27:02 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I prefer the term Spiritual, non religious for a number of reasons. I don't ground myself in any one particular religion. I think spirituality without the religion for myself, like science, can correct past assumptions. I get some militant atheists find any form of spirituality, to be for the simpletons. Maybe there is nothing out there and maybe there is. I leave myself open to the possibility of either option. However, I won't claim to be a militant atheist as much as I won't claim to be of any particular religion. My beliefs can be fluid. What I may have believed when I was younger, may not what I believe today. What I believe today, may not be what I believe when I am older. I value science. It has a very important role. I see no contradictions personally between science and spirituality.

I'm not fond of an over-reliance on "holy books," most particularly when they are interpreted literally. But while the truth must remain an open question, there is one thing that simply is not: Beliefs have effects on the person who holds them, and those effects are independent of whether or not the object of belief is real. So while we do not know what the truth may be, rendering doubt unavoidable, and certainty dangerous, some beliefs can have a value of their own which makes them worth preserving and sustaining.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/31/2015 8:39:20 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 9:44:04 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Unlike a court religion does not require proof based on absolute truths or facts for that matter since there may be none available despite the need for a governing conclusion.

Simple task: "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt murder is wrong".

Philisophically in the final analysis, its a "belief", and its a belief that with few exceptions everyone just happens to support.

Outside of 'belief' there is no existing 'proof' murder is 'wrong'.

Hence the [substantial] definition of 'religion' is the 'personal' 'process' wherein a person through 'conscientious' deliberation makes a 'choice' (usu regarding a 'moral' matter) and then governs themselves accordingly.

Hence not 'every' belief is subset of 'religion'.

So that begs the question, since your ('your' meaning all readers), since 'your religion' concludes that murder is wrong does that make you a nut case? On the other hand you can feel free to prove its right....caveat: [as a rule] since there is always at least one exception to every rule.

Of course when the roots of religion are examined that makes atheist arguments quite hilarious.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
The real problem with religion is that practitioners equate its practice as scientific truth. Religion often leads to out grouping and bigotry.


Um, yeh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall
My "claims" follow logically from observation and deduction (drawn from lack of contradictory evidence), as such they are arguments. Religious apologists have no arguments, and having no arguments you have resorted to the sadly predictable ad hominem attacks. Don't die ignorant.


ORIGINAL: Nthrall
1. All religions ARE bad.

2. Statements of belief,


heaven and hello are inventions.

Religions are doing their best to create hell on Earth


um, yeh.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkygymfreak
you see! it was there weak beliefs that killed them.

ORIGINAL: kinkygymfreak
look man, a few fanatics does not mean they are all bad no. my point is that religion has been a consistent cause of conflict for centuries.


Um yeh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874
He was still just another witch doctor (in my opinion) invoking some invisible and nameless wizard in the sky.


confusing religion with persuasion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Religion has been with us in one form or another since the recording of history...Get with it or over it because it has more power than you and over you and will for the foreseeable future.


I think therefore I am.



Without religion moral 'self' governance could not exist.



quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkygymfreak

just going to share my thoughts about islam extremists and how powerful the brainwashing they have been subjected to is.
religion is very powerful. even though they have no evidence at all that this stuff exists and science has advanced and debunked lots of religious beliefs, these people still believe it! in fact they will die for it! killing yourself for something that you have no evidence of. a fairytale that can hijack and hypnotise the human mind and drive it to the most extreme acts of "faith" this is what happens when you let religion think for you. when your education is based entirely on this bullshit. you become resistant to modern science and theories and end up stuck believing fairy tales. religion has closed the mind! it won't allow humanity to progress, we would all be stuck in the dark ages if islam ruled the world! these people that commit suicide attacks, i just wish they could see through the illusion and save themselves and others from pointless death and suffering.


as others have pointed out, you are espousing 'your' religion.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2015 10:02:36 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 10:16:37 AM   
kinkygymfreak


Posts: 23
Joined: 3/28/2015
Status: offline 		so what if i am! my religion makes sense!and i absolutely hope lots of people are reading my posts. or are we to let religion continue to create factions in he human race when we all were supposed to be brothers and sisters and work for the development of our race. but no thanks to religion a fair chunk of the worlds landmasses are warzones and regular atrocities occur. indeed lots of the worlds oil is from a shit hole where they hang kids for having sex. thanks again religion for creating this shit stain on the world. in particular islam lets face it it is there bullshit beliefs are causing most of the beef at the moment. (halal beef that is) lol

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 10:28:28 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkygymfreak

my religion makes sense!

Well there's a unique belief. Wouldn't it be nice if more people felt that way about their religion?

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/31/2015 10:29:10 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 12:06:13 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

. But while the truth must remain an open question, there is one thing that simply is not: Beliefs have effects on the person who holds them, and those effects are independent of whether or not the object of belief is real.


I have been preaching this for a long time. It really does not make a difference if God or a God exists or not... In fact he absolutely does exist if nothing else in the minds of the believer... And the actions of that believer are very real and can and do have power over everyone on this earth. So how can anyone say..." God does not exist" when his believers shape the world as we know it... It is simply reality.

Butch

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RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 12:06:13 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FR

Count me as one of those who frequently thinks, "Wouldn't it be good if, now that we humans have managed to survive to the 21st Century, we could finally jettison all religion as a thing of the past?

Well, YMM and probably will, V. It's just not an argument that I can be bothered to broach here.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 1:13:05 PM   
Nthrall


Posts: 65
Joined: 3/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall

This is the typical behaviour of a religious apologist: you cannot defend your position, so you attack something else.

When you enter a thread and crap on the carpet in front of an entire forum, the observation that you just crapped on the carpet requires no defense. I mean, seriously. Isn't ignorant and bigoted bad enough? Are you trying to go for stupid, too?

K.



You are ranting so ridiculously far off topic that I have no interest in you. You have contributed nothing. You have no arguments.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 1:44:03 PM   
Nthrall


Posts: 65
Joined: 3/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

. But while the truth must remain an open question, there is one thing that simply is not: Beliefs have effects on the person who holds them, and those effects are independent of whether or not the object of belief is real.


I have been preaching this for a long time. It really does not make a difference if God or a God exists or not... In fact he absolutely does exist if nothing else in the minds of the believer... And the actions of that believer are very real and can and do have power over everyone on this earth. So how can anyone say..." God does not exist" when his believers shape the world as we know it... It is simply reality.

Butch

Butch, you have discovered the existence of concepts.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 1:55:00 PM   
Nthrall


Posts: 65
Joined: 3/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I prefer the term Spiritual, non religious for a number of reasons. I don't ground myself in any one particular religion. I think spirituality without the religion for myself, like science, can correct past assumptions. I get some militant atheists find any form of spirituality, to be for the simpletons. Maybe there is nothing out there and maybe there is. I leave myself open to the possibility of either option. However, I won't claim to be a militant atheist as much as I won't claim to be of any particular religion. My beliefs can be fluid. What I may have believed when I was younger, may not what I believe today. What I believe today, may not be what I believe when I am older. I value science. It has a very important role. I see no contradictions personally between science and spirituality.

I'm not fond of an over-reliance on "holy books," most particularly when they are interpreted literally. But while the truth must remain an open question, there is one thing that simply is not: Beliefs have effects on the person who holds them, and those effects are independent of whether or not the object of belief is real. So while we do not know what the truth may be, rendering doubt unavoidable, and certainty dangerous, some beliefs can have a value of their own which makes them worth preserving and sustaining.

K.



There is no value in being deluded.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 1:58:59 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		We learn from the Gospel that when they asked Jesus what truth was, he did not reply.


Giuilio Andriotti

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 2:25:05 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall

This is the typical behaviour of a religious apologist: you cannot defend your position, so you attack something else.

When you enter a thread and crap on the carpet in front of an entire forum, the observation that you just crapped on the carpet requires no defense. I mean, seriously. Isn't ignorant and bigoted bad enough? Are you trying to go for stupid, too?

K.



You are ranting so ridiculously far off topic that I have no interest in you. You have contributed nothing. You have no arguments.



So that would be yes, going for stupid also, gotcha

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 7:13:02 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_reli.html

There is no explicit constitutional ban on individual states from enacting legislation in regards to religion. But, historically, there has been a huge popular resistance to state governments legislating religion. I remember past covert religious manipulation of state law very well.
Unless you were around in the middle of it; many don't realize how much the backlash against the Moral Majority movement went to break religious hold on many state governments. Moral Majority crossed the line when they advocated wholesale "politicking from the pulpit". I remember vociferous loud arguments between family factions over that issue. One side maintained that since government was to keep hands off legislating religious practice that church hierarchy should stand clear of political agendas in sermons. The other side wanted to use the power of religious authority to get a picked ticket of politicians elected to legislate THEIR way. There is a huge difference in holding a political meeting in the fellowship hall on a weekday night and having the preacher claim you had to vote for a certain person to be a good Christian. This division went a long long way to break the stranglehold of certain religious factions on state and local politics in many areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority

Now I see many of the names and the same thought patterns cajoling the Republican Party into the same type of agenda. I wonder if Westboro Baptist Church will have any delegates to the Republican National Convention? I hate to see the divisive minorities worming their way into the policies of both the major parties. The Republicans really don't need the rabid religious fanatics and the Democrats really don't need the clueless uber-liberal nanny state advocates. In both parties; the fanatic minorities just polarize the populace and make attempts at consensus on issues that really need to be addressed another sound bite faction fight.
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RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 8:35:31 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Count me as one of those who frequently thinks, "Wouldn't it be good if, now that we humans have managed to survive to the 21st Century, we could finally jettison all religion as a thing of the past?

Well, YMM and probably will, V. It's just not an argument that I can be bothered to broach here.



and who would make the multitudes of moral determinations that we make on a daily basis as a matter of course for self governance?

every thought that is accepted as true correct or fact starts with a personal 'belief' in its being true, then acting upon your accepted belief, (esp moral beliefs) are in fact 'your religion' and that holds true even for atheists since they have a moral code of conduct.

quote:

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting ...


of course the free exercise part is a lie on its face, and should have said 'free exercise of government sanctioned religion', however if you get rid of religion then wouldnt we have to ditch the first and most important amendment too.

Is t hat what you want?

It seems to me that would only result in shifting religion from the jurisdiction of the individual person to the jurisdiction of the group running the state since if not individually then a state would have to dictate all moral behavior? If we abolish it completely then who or what is moral? Is that not synonymous with the abolition of all morals?





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2015 8:58:38 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 8:48:38 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

There is no explicit constitutional ban on individual states from enacting legislation in regards to religion.



Actually there is. By construction. Which is explicit as it can get despite justices who should be ousted sing that same song and as long as the people do not scream it will become forever entrenched 'defacto' style.

The government is created with enumerated powers, despite they claim the extensive powers beyond 'enumerated' powers under the guise of what is needed to get the job done usually in the form of short cuts which in fact infringe on rights rather than the usually more costly legitimate route that protects rights. The theory of summary judgment and presumption in favor of government for one, (well 2) should be completely abolished because its prejudicial, but I digress.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 11:36:28 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall

There is no value in being deluded.

If despite fully knowing that you cannot prove it to be true, you nevertheless choose to believe in something because of the positive effects of that belief on your conduct, relationships, health, well-being, and the joy you find in life, you are not deluded. You are neither misleading nor deceiving yourself. Come back when you learn English.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/31/2015 11:53:56 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 3/31/2015 11:56:47 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nthrall


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I prefer the term Spiritual, non religious for a number of reasons. I don't ground myself in any one particular religion. I think spirituality without the religion for myself, like science, can correct past assumptions. I get some militant atheists find any form of spirituality, to be for the simpletons. Maybe there is nothing out there and maybe there is. I leave myself open to the possibility of either option. However, I won't claim to be a militant atheist as much as I won't claim to be of any particular religion. My beliefs can be fluid. What I may have believed when I was younger, may not what I believe today. What I believe today, may not be what I believe when I am older. I value science. It has a very important role. I see no contradictions personally between science and spirituality.

I'm not fond of an over-reliance on "holy books," most particularly when they are interpreted literally. But while the truth must remain an open question, there is one thing that simply is not: Beliefs have effects on the person who holds them, and those effects are independent of whether or not the object of belief is real. So while we do not know what the truth may be, rendering doubt unavoidable, and certainty dangerous, some beliefs can have a value of their own which makes them worth preserving and sustaining.

K.



There is no value in being deluded.



"Faith" in the context of religion is not "delusion". I'm a functional atheist, in that I am happy to believe that there is a "supernatural" thingamie at play, but I do not believe that it has any connection with the construct that people describe as "God". But, plenty of people much much smarter than me do believe in "God", and their belief is not based on delusion, it is based on faith.

I would recommend the following book .. http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Atheists-non-believers-guide-religion/dp/0141046317

Even if you do believe that belief in God is a delusion, and I don't, this book might help you reconsider religion's role, importance, and contribution. I'm not suggesting that it's going to rock your world and bring you to theism, but it'll give you another angle on what religion actually means to society.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: thoughts on the power of religion - 4/1/2015 3:38:50 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Count me as one of those who frequently thinks, "Wouldn't it be good if, now that we humans have managed to survive to the 21st Century, we could finally jettison all religion as a thing of the past?

Well, YMM and probably will, V. It's just not an argument that I can be bothered to broach here.



and who would make the multitudes of moral determinations that we make on a daily basis as a matter of course for self governance?

every thought that is accepted as true correct or fact starts with a personal 'belief' in its being true, then acting upon your accepted belief, (esp moral beliefs) are in fact 'your religion' and that holds true even for atheists since they have a moral code of conduct.


You are trying to use a size 29 word to cover a size 38 ass. According to definitions, it just will not stretch that far.


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Profile   Post #: 100
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