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RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/1/2015 9:00:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

First off...when you start a post with "why don't you stop slobbering...."I just stopped reading.
So the rest of your post was so much wasted typing if the goal was a back and forth.
Now skip along and play with someone who is likely to accept your usual bullshit.

Well thanks for sparing me, but I don't think I'll be taking any courtesy lessons from some clown calling people "intellectually dishonest" for failing to line up behind the propaganda du jour.

K.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/1/2015 9:03:33 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		You ever wonder why you are so popular.?
The fact that you are full of shit doesn't help much either


Have it your way though,I'm sure I will survive the lack of conversation.....lol

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/1/2015 9:12:18 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		For the rest of the congregation ,the ones who can actually engage in debate.Here are the flaws in Ken and Kirata's reasoning .
The status qou equates to Iran continuing it's nuke program,something the just re-elected right wing gov.of Bibi's has sworn he will not tolerate.
Netanyahu can not sit back as Iran marches inexorably towards joining the nuclear weapons possessing club .
The United States can not sit back and allow Israel to deal with Iran's nukes issue for fear of that setting off a general region wide war....so we are sucked in.
Either way,at the least,should talks fail an immediate cry for ramping up the sanctions will be heard....no one will be championing the "satus quo" as everyone see's that as untenable despite the suggestion of right wing putz's .

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/1/2015 4:01:26 PM   
KenDckey


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Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.ijreview.com/2015/03/285372-just-like-white-houses-spin-fighting-isis-destroyed/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=conservativedaily&utm_campaign=Politics


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/1/2015 9:52:54 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Look, directly as a result if the worst foreign policy decision in America's history...invading Iraq (Geo. Will, Wash. Post) and as a result of the CIA taking down Qaddafi, YES the CIA, we have created, YES the US has created a world of sectarian shit in the ME.

This has created power vacuums and the teetering or falling of weak monarchs or otherwise, all throughout the ME and now...NOW we that have a lib dem in the white house to blame for not cleaning up the whole mess in the succeeding 6 years. And this after 30-40 years of both right and left doing nothing but jockeying for position either militarily or for profit.

With all of the purposeful warmongering perpetrated by the US for almost 8 years under W, and his father, I want to know just how anybody can have any objective assessment of ANY admin. to follow ?

Just as a black celebrity said, "He could see a black man elected pres. in his lifetime (presumably dem.) but not now." Why he was asked, not now ? "Because now...NOW they will blame all of our problems and particularly those left to him now...on him."

And now...only NOW, is Obama to be blamed for Iran getting the bomb. (what horseshit) That celebrity was absolutely correct.

Furthermore, I ask all of those who seem to have a problem with Obama no matter what he does, just what really...REALLY is he supposed to do ?



< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 4/1/2015 9:54:20 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/1/2015 11:04:35 PM   
MercTech


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Furthermore, I ask all of those who seem to have a problem with Obama no matter what he does, just what really...REALLY is he supposed to do ?




In general, when you find yourself in a deep hole and especially if you didn't dig the hole in the first place; the first thing you do is QUIT DIGGING THE HOLE DEEPER.
The Middle East has been a black hole of conflict for at least a hundred years that sucks in any group that tries to get involved.


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/1/2015 11:27:55 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Furthermore, I ask all of those who seem to have a problem with Obama no matter what he does, just what really...REALLY is he supposed to do ?



At this juncture, we walk away from the table, continue the sanctions and re-visit the issue when we can bargain from a position of strength. I don't think it would take more than about 6 months of re-initiated sanctions.

We probably shouldn't have stopped them, before the negotiations, in the first place.

We're talking about giving the bomb to a country who has a general who just yesterday said that the destruction of Israel is non-negotiable.

I think Obummer can be directly compared to Chamberlain, in this instance.



Michael

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 2:14:32 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


There is no nuclear threat to Israel from Iran. That's what's bullshit.


Yes I agree that Iran doesn't present a nuclear threat to Israel, or for that matter anybody else. (How this observation relates to anything that I have posted is beyond me - I haven't suggested anything remotely like this notion) If there is a real threat it is to Iran and the threat comes from Israel.

Netanyahoo has made no secret of his preferred option - he wants military strikes to destroy Iran's alleged nuclear capability. What's more he prefers that the US do his dirty work for him and has been working towards that end for decades now. So mike is perfectly correct to point out that, in the event of negotiations failing, there is no return to the status quo. There will be military action most likely by Israel. Iran is unlikely to take this lying down and no doubt will retaliate. Realpolitik dictates that they haven't any choice about this - their choices are limited to the exact form of the retaliation. So there is no return to the status quo - it's negotiations and agreement or it's war.

To claim or to pretend that there are other realistic alternatives is somewhere between being incredibly naive or downright dishonest. To object to negotiations is effectively promoting the only other realistic alternative - war - and promoting an aggressive war is correctly described as warmongering. It's not like the US and Israeli Right don't have a history of warmongering is it? Both have long long histories of it and their current warmongering is simply business as usual for those two belligerents.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/2/2015 2:16:09 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 2:34:48 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Netanyahoo has made no secret of his preferred option - he wants military strikes to destroy Iran's alleged nuclear capability. What's more he prefers that the US do his dirty work for him and has been working towards that end for decades now. So mike is perfectly correct to point out that, in the event of negotiations failing, there is no return to the status quo. There will be military action most likely by Israel. Iran is unlikely to take this lying down and no doubt will retaliate. Realpolitik dictates that they haven't any choice about this - their choices are limited to the exact form of the retaliation. So there is no return to the status quo - it's negotiations and agreement or it's war.

I do not have much confidence in your crystal ball. It is at best highly dubious that Israel has the ability to eradicate Iran's nuclear program. That opportunity passed long ago. And while things are not always what they seem, it certainly appears that Obama is in no mood to support an Israeli attack. So it would be a disastrous geopolitical blunder for Israel to undertake military action unilaterally. The only opportunity I can see is for Yemen to heat up, and for Israel to join the coalition currently fighting Iran's proxy there in a larger regional action against Iran.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

To claim or to pretend that there are other realistic alternatives is somewhere between being incredibly naive or downright dishonest. To object to negotiations is effectively promoting the only other realistic alternative - war - and promoting an aggressive war is correctly described as warmongering. It's not like the US and Israeli Right don't have a history of warmongering is it? Both have long long histories of it and their current warmongering is simply business as usual for those two belligerents.

It is almost always naive, if not downright dishonest, to portray a situation in black and white and declare that there are no other options.

K.


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 3:24:07 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Netanyahoo has made no secret of his preferred option - he wants military strikes to destroy Iran's alleged nuclear capability. What's more he prefers that the US do his dirty work for him and has been working towards that end for decades now. So mike is perfectly correct to point out that, in the event of negotiations failing, there is no return to the status quo. There will be military action most likely by Israel. Iran is unlikely to take this lying down and no doubt will retaliate. Realpolitik dictates that they haven't any choice about this - their choices are limited to the exact form of the retaliation. So there is no return to the status quo - it's negotiations and agreement or it's war.

I do not have much confidence in your crystal ball. It is at best highly dubious that Israel has the ability to eradicate Iran's nuclear program. That opportunity passed long ago. And while things are not always what they seem, it certainly appears that Obama is in no mood to support an Israeli attack. So it would be a disastrous geopolitical blunder for Israel to undertake military action unilaterally. The only opportunity I can see is for Yemen to heat up, and for Israel to join the coalition currently fighting Iran's proxy there in a larger regional action against Iran.


I am far from certain your analysis is shared by the people in Israel who will make the decisions. The Israelis, led by Netanyahoo, have painted themselves into a corner by their constant sabre rattling over the years on this issue. If the negotiations fail, or even if they succeed but produce a result that Netanyahoo dislikes enough, they really have no option but to take military action. If a nuclear Iran presents the "existential" threat the Israelis claim it is, then they have to take action against it don't they? Anything less would mean that a nuclear Iran isn't the existential threat the Israelis have claimed it is. And it would spell the end of Netanyahoo whose own right wing wouldn't tolerate inaction on this issue.

I agree that unilateral Israeli aggression against Iran would run huge risks for the Israelis. However in their eyes, the risks of allowing an existential threat to Israel's existence to emerge and consolidate would out weigh all other risks. So they will attack Iran and hope to live with whatever the consequences may be. In the paranoid worldview of the Israeli Right, they wouldn't have a choice.

The chances of that Israeli military action taking place in Yemen are somewhere between remote and miniscule. Nothing would discredit the Saudi led alliance in the eyes of the Arab world more than allying themselves with, and fighting alongside Israel against brother Arabs/Muslims*. The effect of this would be so disastrous that the ayatollahs in Teheran could only pray and dream of it. Not a realistic option (see below). Israeli military action must target the nuclear facilities that they are so paranoid about. The Israelis would have no justification for taking any military action against non-Iranian nuclear targets (not that that would necessarily stop them, given their record of belligerence)


quote:


It is almost always naive, if not downright dishonest, to portray a situation in black and white and declare that there are no other options.
K.

But I didn't say that there are only two options, I said that there are only two realistic options. And I note you haven't presented any other realistic options beyond the two I have outlined.

* Just one example to illustrate this point: During the current ongoing attempt to re-take Tikrit in Iraq from IS, the Iranian-led and -allied militias, who had done the lion's share of the fighting, laid down their arms and refused to fight when they heard that US jets were bombing IS. Which goes to show I guess that the enemy of your enemy isn't always your friend, especially when Arabs, the US and Israel find themselves on the same side.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/2/2015 3:35:13 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 3:33:53 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I am far from certain your analysis is shared by the people in Israel who will make the decisions. The Israelis, led by Netanyahoo, have painted themselves into a corner by their constant sabre rattling over the years on this issue. If the negotiations fail, or even if they succeed but produce a result that Netanyahoo dislikes enough, they really have no option but to take military action. If a nuclear Iran presents the "existential" threat the Israelis claim it is, then they have to take action against it don't they? Anything less would mean that a nuclear Iran isn't the existential threat the Israelis have claimed it is. And it would spell the end of Netanyahoo whose own right wing wouldn't tolerate inaction on this issue.

They've been claiming that for years without taking any action.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The chances of that Israeli military action taking place in Yemen are somewhere between remote and unthinkable. Nothing would discredit the Saudi led alliance in the eyes of the Arab world more than allying themselves with, and fighting alongside Israel against brother Arabs/Muslims*. The effect of this would be so disastrous that the ayatollahs in Teheran could only pray and dream of it. Not a realistic option (see below). Israeli military action must target the nuclear facilities that they are so paranoid about. The Israelis would have no justification for taking any military action against non-Iranian nuclear targets (not that that would necessarily stop them, given their record of belligerence)

I didn't say anything about Israel joining the action in Yemen. I said if the conflict expands into a wider regional war against Iran, because that brings Israel's interests into line with the interests of the coalition. Your notion that Sunnis consider Shi'ites their "brothers" is little short of bizarre.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/2/2015 3:48:56 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 3:51:41 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		It might be entertaining to speculate about possible scenarios but nothing you have contributed so far has posited a realistic alternative beyond the two basic alternatives I outlined in my first post. These are on one hand negotiations and agreement and on the other hand war.

Opposing one of these alternatives is promoting the other - so opposing negotiations and agreement is promoting war. And those on the US and Israeli Right who reject negotiations and agreement are promoting war, ie they are warmongers. However complicated the whole picture may be, this part of the situation is as simple as that.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 4:49:42 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It might be entertaining to speculate about possible scenarios but nothing you have contributed so far has posited a realistic alternative beyond the two basic alternatives I outlined in my first post. These are on one hand negotiations and agreement and on the other hand war.

Opposing one of these alternatives is promoting the other - so opposing negotiations and agreement is promoting war. And those on the US and Israeli Right who reject negotiations and agreement are promoting war, ie they are warmongers. However complicated the whole picture may be, this part of the situation is as simple as that.

Yeah, no. Bless you for your faith, but continuing to recite your catechism does not make you right.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 8:01:56 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		A very interesting interview on the situation in Yemen and the broader region with veteran Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 8:18:09 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

A very interesting interview on the situation in Yemen and the broader region with veteran Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/

Direct link:

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4210402.htm

K.

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RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 9:26:07 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

Foreign ministers at talks in Lausanne on Iran’s nuclear programme have said they are inching towards a joint statement, which would be accompanied by a set of agreed parameters that would be kept secret, according to European diplomats. ~Source

It was only driven by a little old lady on Sundays.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 9:48:27 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		neither here nor there, has to pass the senate,to work at treaty level secret or not, so the intel committee would have to have a closed door and probably armed services as well, and who else?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 10:11:31 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

neither here nor there, has to pass the senate,to work at treaty level secret or not, so the intel committee would have to have a closed door and probably armed services as well, and who else?

Probably everybody except the people who have a right to know what Congress is committing us to.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 10:17:29 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That is a pretty common scenario, even when the pastiche is being played out in view of the American citizens.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Another Deadline passed - 4/2/2015 11:10:58 AM   
Lucylastic


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Framework for Iran Nuclear Accord Announced, Though Not All Details Settled
Iran and European nations said they had reached a general understanding about next steps in limiting Tehran’s nuclear program, but officials said that some important issues need to be resolved before a final agreement in June that would allow the Obama administration to assert it has cut off all of Iran’s pathways to a nuclear weapon.
Both Germany’s foreign office and President Hassan Rouhani of Iran said that key parameters of a framework for a final accord had been reached, with the details to be negotiated by June 30. But Western diplomats cautioned that on several of the key issues that were debated here for the past eight days between Secretary of State John Kerry and his Iranian counterpart, Mohammad Javad Zarif, there were still significant differences.
Mr. Kerry is scheduled to give a news conference soon afterwards, at which he is expected to provide some details of the American understanding of what was negotiated.
READ MORE »
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/03/world/middleeast/iran-nuclear-talks.html?emc=edit_na_20150402

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Profile   Post #: 40
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