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RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:14:47 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I think you hit the nail on the head CD congratulations for such a great post. One constant thing I have found with the people I spend most time with RL and who are either BDSM or Gorean, we all seem to have one of our goals in common and that is to help and nurture our collared ones so that they can grow and hopefully reach something near their potential. I always figure that there is a 50/50 chance a girl will grow to where she needs something different but if we can remain friends I am happy anyway....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/15/2006 8:15:17 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 21

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:14:57 AM

cheshireboy

Posts: 217
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

~and he turns up the music, and busts a a jive of listening where the groove is open communication, and the steps are written in understanding and non jealousy and just dances away~~

(in reply to krikket)

Post #: 22

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:18:15 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

quote:

I lived with a fantasy life in my head

Making the fantasy real is the hard part and not know what level of fantasy and what you two are doing, and what background your dominant has it is hard to respond with specifics.

I have posted any number of times that I have seen people walk in off the street with relationship skills and create better S&M relationships than people who have been in the scene for years.

Again, I said a couple of times in my post that I was speaking of how things tend to go and if you read my posts I rarely if ever speak in absolutes.

(in reply to Sunshine119)

Post #: 23

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:18:27 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

CD,
Image is everything. Marketing is effective.

Being a Master or being a slave is an end goal to many. They perceive it as an entitled destination regardless of their abilities, regardless if it's in their nature or not.

When you fail, it's rarely your fault. The master kept secrets or wasn't attentive enough. The slave 'topped from below' and had too many 'limits'.

So people move from one experience to the next. Not realizing that it's temporarily 'successful' because new relationships aways are.

You can't seek a Master or slave until/unless you have a firm foundation of self knowledge. As julia said you must be self aware. It's a long sojourn for most.

But what happens when that internal journey results in conclusions that put you outside of the 24/7 relationship. Unfortunately that's when the attacks begin. "You can't be 24/7 if you have 'replicants' in the house". "24/7 M/s is impossible in the 'real' world." "Anyone who says they are without limits is a liar." "Third party speech is 'silly' and immature." "Anyone who's a slave is a doormat." They are not in and have never been in a 24/7 M/s relationship. They've never had a Dom or submissive. They've never 'surrendered' or taken on full time responsibility to or for another. But they KNOW it just is. They 'know' because they failed. They can't fail. They interject rationalizations of their situation because deep down they don't feel it's 'wrong' but they know it's wrong for them. Yet if someone says it's 'essential' to be in a 24/7 relationship what choice do they have? They can either deny it occurs or that it's important; or they can say it's false therefore maintain that they still 'qualify' for the slave or master designation.

And that's the problem. People think that unless you get to the point of 24/7 M/s you failed. Well not so. 99.875% of the people will never, could never, and don't even want 24/7 M/s. It's an opportunity for "so what?". It's not failure. It just is.

There should be no 'ultimate' goal associated with the lifestyle. There is no 'problem' with slavery and BDSM other than perception; mostly self perception. It's a shame there are any titles. Better to just have fun with your partner and accept the relationship dynamic in any form and fashion that makes you both happy and fulfilled. 24/7 or 3/365; if it's fun it's a good thing.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 7/15/2006 8:21:23 AM >

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 24

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:20:41 AM

wild1cfl

Posts: 567
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

Very well said Crappy Dom. I have definitely been around the block a few times and the one thing that I have found out is that everyone is different and everyone has their own opinion about BDSM and slavery. What you have done here is sum up the years of learning and playing into a well thought out and well summed up statement.
It has taken many years for my wife and I to grow as Dominants, we have both played with a lot of submissives. We have met several that fit well with us, and we have met many that do not work well with our version of BDSM. The ones that do not fit well we try to let them know gently and walk away as freinds. The ones that do fit have usually been with us for a long time. Some have moved into a slave mentality and others have not, but what is important is that each of them are individuals and deserve to treated as such.
Enjoy your journey.

_____________________________

Wild

My Falcon now is sharp, and passing empty; And, till she stoop, she shall not be full gorg'd, For then she never looks upon her lure. Another way i have to man my haggard, to make her come and know her keeper's call. Wm. Shakespeare

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 25

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:24:59 AM

DoctorDubious

Posts: 267
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania......

I learned far more from having one partner than in having a casual fling.

Personally speaking I do not think I have to be beaten and eaten by 100s of people to know myself.

....
I have fought for every bit of self awareness I possess, and most of it came the hard way.

Personally I am ready for an adventure that lasts a lifetime with one person...

Amen Sister Julia .... Amen!

... just an old goat from way in the back of the choir
who thinks every word in that box up above is golden.

DD

< Message edited by DoctorDubious -- 7/15/2006 8:29:48 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 26

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:27:51 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Well said, MercNbeth.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 27

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:29:12 AM

Sunshine119

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

quote:

I lived with a fantasy life in my head

Making the fantasy real is the hard part and not know what level of fantasy and what you two are doing, and what background your dominant has it is hard to respond with specifics.

I have posted any number of times that I have seen people walk in off the street with relationship skills and create better S&M relationships than people who have been in the scene for years.

Again, I said a couple of times in my post that I was speaking of how things tend to go and if you read my posts I rarely if ever speak in absolutes.

He (with quite a bit of experience in his own failed D/s long term marriage) found me in the "vanilla" world. I read in him what I craved and he read in me the potential to be. Almost two years later, here we are, still living together. We have our rituals every day from the moment we wake. He deals with my shortcomings and I deal with His. But "His Highness" runs the show and I adore Him for it!

Your insight into the dynamic of relationships in general is right on. And, I do love that you never speak in absolutes. Absolutes are perfections that exist outside of our time and space, to which we can only work towards attaining. (Ah...the philospher in me must emerge from time to time...lol)

_____________________________

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 28

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:29:15 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I agree it probably takes consistent work and the dance won't ever be "flawless" Dr. D.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to DoctorDubious)

Post #: 29

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:30:39 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I love what crouchingtigress said.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 30

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:34:13 AM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

Oh great EXISTENCE... you've hit the nail on the head. It is -so- hard to explain what we are, and how we got here. We've been growing in this for a decade. People look at me and say "You were a slave... now you're a Domme... what a player!!!"... but that isn't how it happened at all. It was a completely natural process, where I went from yielding myself completely to people whom I understood, and who understood me, and for whom we were able to mutually meet one another's needs, to growing in that place for a time that feels like time-without-time... where I can still remember hours of resentment, and anger, and hating myself, and being bashed by others for how deeply I loved and cherished and served these people... from pulling myself out of the loss of our gentlemen so closely on one another to carry SR until she could get her feet under her again, and in doing so, realizing just how deeply her love went, because she -isn't- one of those people who wears her heart on her sleeve -- she's very pragmatic and stern, even with herself.

Nobody saw me grow like our family-of-choice. Nobody noticed (not even me) when I started teaching and guiding as my primary service to the houseold, and I could have sworn I hadn't said a word or made a single noise about how much I longed to be guiding. Yet, when I'd grown all I could in service as a servant, though I would have gone on in that place without complaint, someone here -noticed-...they knew me and watched me, and as I grew and changed, my life changed with me... I didn't have to discard anyone I loved... the family reshaped itself organically around my changes. Now, I have a special place here, carved just for me in a hierarchy that never had this place before. I have my own role here -- and what's interesting to me is that the people that I love value what I bring to the leadership of our home as the highest priority of our home -- the mental, spiritual, and emotional development of our family, our servants, and our community. I didn't have to act out to get it... I didn't have to hurt anyone, or destroy anyone, or take something from anyone else... we grew it... ourselves... as part of what we are.

I may be confused -- and some days I am. To me, being a dominant has its own set of responsibilities and rules, and is a way of living in service, still. Perhaps, with my monastic background, it will never be anything else -- even the Dalai Lama, certainly a leader, lives his life in service to his calling and his truth. I'm not the Dalai Lama. I struggle for my peace every day... but I dominate from a place of guidance and respect for the people whose call to service needs and outlet in a world that doesn't appreciate what it has available to it. Does this make me a bad Domme... I don't think so, but who can judge. It works here, but it won't work for everyone, and why should it.

We've tried to bring people into what we shared, but I understand now that the thing that "worked" for us when we were so large was rare -- it may very well have been a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence.

You know what, though... with or without our servants, we're everything we are, and we're proud of that. At the same time, I can't teach what we are. I can't show a newcomer how to make what we have. It's an organic process and it takes time. What we have is so perfect -- just right for us... but I can't -give- it to someone else, or even explain how we got it. It just is. It is part of our organic growth process into what we are.

ZWD

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 31

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:36:15 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

Is it possible to live through a long-term abusive marriage, spend years in therapy to over come the abuse, and read everything available to be able to skip a few of the bad relationships before finding one that can work out well? I'm at a place in my life where I'd rather not go through years and years of short-term relationships before I find a long-term one that works for me.

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 32

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:43:49 AM

Sunshine119

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

Is it possible to live through a long-term abusive marriage, spend years in therapy to over come the abuse, and read everything available to be able to skip a few of the bad relationships before finding one that can work out well? I'm at a place in my life where I'd rather not go through years and years of short-term relationships before I find a long-term one that works for me.

sublizzie,

I think it is not only possible, but probable. You know what you want because you've spent years learning about yourself already and more in therapy.

You may not find what you want right away, but keep the model in your mind and someone "nearly" that model may come along. You may "nearly" be his model too. Think you could live with that? <grins>.

I wish you as much luck in your search as I have had.

Sunshine

_____________________________

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 33

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:48:08 AM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

sublizzie,

No relationship advice can give permanence to a relationship. A long-term relationship can only be considered "long term" after the fact... when it's lasted for years and is still going strong. Most people consider "long term" to be synonymous with "permanent", but from our experience, expecting permanence is the death-knell of a relationship. The only way to nurture a relationship to that level is to maintain the desire for durability, and expecting permanence often leads to ennui--we start taking the people and the situations for granted, and stop paying attention to the little signals that indicate health or illness in a relationship.

Start out in small steps. Make choices that seem like they will be good choices. Take your time and really listen to the growth of the relationship. The one thing I can offer you is that you don't -have- to hurt to try out relationships... just let yourself go slowly and see how things feel. If they feel right, take another step, if they don't, let go... but always, cherish yourself and believe that you know what's good for you. Most of the mistakes we make are because we second-guess ourselves. We see, hear or feel something that is "off", and we want what we want so much that we -choose- not to see the "soft spot" of impending spoilage. So trust that instinct... when you step and there's a soft spot, back off. If it's small, perhaps you can talk around it or give it time to heal -- if not, you're on the "safe" side of the spoilage. This is the best that I can offer.

ZWD

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 34

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 8:49:42 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

sublizzie,

I think it is not only possible, but probable. You know what you want because you've spent years learning about yourself already and more in therapy.

You may not find what you want right away, but keep the model in your mind and someone "nearly" that model may come along. You may "nearly" be his model too. Think you could live with that? <grins>.

I wish you as much luck in your search as I have had.

Sunshine

Thank you!! It's amazing how many "nearlys" I've met who will not "settle" for nearly but want perfection. Guess they aren't as "nearly" as I need, eh??? LOL

(in reply to Sunshine119)

Post #: 35

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 9:00:16 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

Posts: 1672
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoctorDubious
>>learned exactly what she wants
for me, learned is the key word here,
because knowing what we really want
is deep and hidden and complex and mysterious...
..... and changes over time

Boy now is That a loaded statement! It also brings the question to my own mind - in the course of the 21 years that I mentioned that it took me to get it through my thick skull - is the supposition here that it didn't actually take that long, that I simply changed sufficiently over those years to REALLY WANT vastly different things? I don't think such is the case, since there is a part of me that still Honestly wants various things that I've tried in the past which didn't work or which made me flat out miserable. The "change" has been in whether or not I'm willing to expend energy attempting to have/do those things, rather than whether I still want them.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to DoctorDubious)

Post #: 36

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 9:36:09 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

ZWD,

I like your use of the word "spoilage". As a cook that makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you!

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

Post #: 37

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 9:41:34 AM

LiliesDoGrow

Posts: 106
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline

I think more on your lines of thought Julia. I don't want to be put through some BDSM meat grinder in order to be self aware in this realm. There is a bit of callousness, robotic behaviours I've observed by those who frenquent the clubs. (Please don't be offended anyone. It's just something I find comfortable.) I've only attended two seperate arenas as an observer, but the process of these places and the people who "scened" made me a bit queasy. But that's just me and my particular temperment. Dom hopping would not cause me to learn anything of myself with the acception of how degraded I would feel. Not a lesson I'm needing to learn in order to be my best.

I was married twenty years to my first Dom. Not going to speak against the father of my children. I'll just say that the love of fetishes does not equate dominance for me emotionaly. Ultimately, I ended up being the dominant one who maintained the order of the household. I learned what kind of life I didn't wish to live. And I did become stronger.

I've been on my own since the age of thirteen. I've been chewed up and spit out enough for several lifetimes. I don't need this as a learning tool any more. Been there, didn't want to do that, learned from it, moving forward towards something more positive.

On the other hand, I learn much and grow more when in the company of caring people. I'd prefer to be taught gently.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 38

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 10:19:59 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Great OP. So often we hear, "It's easy to be a slave, all you have to do is lay back and do what you're told." or..."It's easy to be a Master, just dole orders around."

Your point of "the broken heels, the bruised feet" really hit home with me. Learning the depths of my own submission has been incredibly rewarding and painful at the same time.

I must, however, disagree with your point of needing 10 years or so to reach such a point. I have belonged to Master for two years, and he is my first real-time Master. And there is no problem with me silently setting out his toybag while he does what it is he does with whomever and/or whatever (to use your example). This came from intense mental/emotional training over these past two years - lots of screaming and gnashing of teeth - but a beautiful dance as a result. Yes, there are still some missteps and we can not be described as "flawless," but I have not served dozens to get here. I have served one - one who was able to bring me here.

Your OP, however, does illustrate the point that it takes work and effort and yes, even pain to bring about such a level of trust and understand within one's self and in a relationship. I know I have much to learn still. I plan on learning it in my current slavery to Master, however. :)

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 39

RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 10:34:44 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

This is for those who do this in the real world and live with or at least near their partners.

The problem with slavery is that it sounds so cool and if you are lucky enough to see it it looks so easy. The problem is you can't see WHY it works. It is like dancing, the whole point is to make it seem effortless but you can't see the practice, the broken heels, the bruised feet, the string of rejected dance partners that all went into what you now see as two people gliding perfectly in synch with each other.

I think the problem is that when you are new *everything* looks cool and perfect. I think if you can't see the problems or flaws then obviously you (not you personally but you universally) just aren't looking or listening very well.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 40

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