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RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 10:45:24 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Great OP.  So often we hear, "It's easy to be a slave, all you have to do is lay back and do what you're told."  or..."It's easy to be a Master, just dole orders around." 

Your point of "the broken heels, the bruised feet" really hit home with me.  Learning the depths of my own submission has been incredibly rewarding and painful at the same time. 

I must, however, disagree with your point of needing 10 years or so to reach such a point.  I have belonged to Master for two years, and he is my first real-time Master.  And there is no problem with me silently setting out his toybag while he does what it is he does with whomever and/or whatever (to use your example).  This came from intense mental/emotional training over these past two years - lots of screaming and gnashing of teeth - but a beautiful dance as a result.  Yes, there are still some missteps and we can not be described as "flawless," but I have not served dozens to get here.  I have served one - one who was able to bring me here.

Your OP, however, does illustrate the point that it takes work and effort and yes, even pain to bring about such a level of trust and understand within one's self and in a relationship.  I know I have much to learn still.  I plan on learning it in my current slavery to Master, however.  :)


And when you go to your next master.. all this training will be a mute point because everyone does it differently. 

I know I had to deprogram slaves in the past who come to me thinking what they have learned is what I would consider proper.  I would let them show me what they knew (I'm polite like that), keep what was appropriate and then rework the rest to my satisfaction. 

The BEST training I found, were those that came from the military.. Now Uncle Sam does have that going for him :)

_____________________________

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I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 10:58:14 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		But that is the point Lotus, her master may outlive her and she would never have another one. Perhaps "this is it" for her... perhaps this is the only master she will ever experience. She has stated her desire is to never belong to another, and it has already been two years, perhaps this is that sort of relationship.. the real deal.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 11:22:36 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
And when you go to your next master.. all this training will be a mute point because everyone does it differently. 

I know I had to deprogram slaves in the past who come to me thinking what they have learned is what I would consider proper.  I would let them show me what they knew (I'm polite like that), keep what was appropriate and then rework the rest to my satisfaction. 

The BEST training I found, were those that came from the military.. Now Uncle Sam does have that going for him :)


All due respect, and typically I enjoy your posts...but speaking of my "next Master" as you did is insulting to me. 

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 11:23:39 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

But that is the point Lotus, her master may outlive her and she would never have another one. Perhaps "this is it" for her... perhaps this is the only master she will ever experience. She has stated her desire is to never belong to another, and it has already been two years, perhaps this is that sort of relationship.. the real deal.


Thank you, Julia, I did not see your post before I replied to hers.  I appreciate your words and understanding.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 11:41:11 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		really? how often? i have never met anyone in meatlife who has said that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Great OP.  So often we hear, "It's easy to be a slave, all you have to do is lay back and do what you're told."  or..."It's easy to be a Master, just dole orders around." 


_____________________________


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This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 11:42:37 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

really? how often? i have never met anyone in meatlife who has said that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Great OP.  So often we hear, "It's easy to be a slave, all you have to do is lay back and do what you're told."  or..."It's easy to be a Master, just dole orders around." 


Often enough to remember and I'm afraid I do not know your term:  "meatlife."

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 7/15/2006 11:43:11 AM >

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RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 11:44:30 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

really? how often? i have never met anyone in meatlife who has said that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Great OP.  So often we hear, "It's easy to be a slave, all you have to do is lay back and do what you're told."  or..."It's easy to be a Master, just dole orders around." 


Often enough to remember and I'm afraid I do not know your term:  "meatlife."


I have heard this myself, usually from people that have never had a real life long term BDSM relationship and they are also the ones that think that being a submissive or dominant is "natural", and therefore it must be easy.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 11:50:04 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, that was my point.  I hear it from people who basically don't know what they're talking about.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/15/2006 11:41:07 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

It is like dancing, the whole point is to make it seem effortless but you can't see the practice, the broken heels, the bruised feet, the string of rejected dance partners that all went into what you now see as two people gliding perfectly in synch with each other.



Hello A/all,

As a dancer, my dance instructor once got on the microphone at the Friday night dance (www.atomicswing.com) and indicated to all and sundry that a person only becomes good at dancing by trying new things, and failing to succeed, and continuing to try, and becoming successful.

Two dancers are in synch when their movements mesh, are in time with each other, and both knows who is leading and who is following.  On a related note, topping from the bottom, from a dancing standpoint (known as back leading) seldom makes a cohesive dance couple.  What I learned in dancing has such a profound similarity to WIITWD.

We all started at the same place, although some people may think differently, and cutting somebody down in my opinion is simply impeding their progress to becoming the person they want to be.

And on that note, triple step left, triple step right, rock back, rock forward, repeat.

Just me, could be wrong, but there ya go.

Sinergy

P.S.  The steps above are East Coast Swing.  Lindy Hop is triple step left, rock step, triple step right, rock step on an 8 count.  Whereas West Coast Swing is triple step, triple step, step step.

P.P.S.  I love dancing.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 2:15:12 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Nice post, but fatally flawed if it is supposed to explain the problem with BDSM and slavery.  To elaborate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

This is for those who do this in the real world and live with or at least near their partners.

There's the first problem, aiming this at just one group.  On the one hand its preaching to the choir, which doesn't really accomplish anything.  On the other hand there is that growing group out there who come to this lifestyle through the internet, popular media, clubs, etc.  And like it or not, for better or worse, they are having an impact on things.  Things are changing.

quote:

The problem with slavery is that it sounds so cool and if you are lucky enough to see it it looks so easy.  The problem is you can't see WHY it works.  It is like dancing, the whole point is to make it seem effortless but you can't see the practice, the broken heels, the bruised feet, the string of rejected dance partners that all went into what you now see as two people gliding perfectly in synch with each other.

Several problems with this.  First, why should it sound so cool?  Hell, the only group I know of who really thinks it sounds so cool is that "other" group you weren't speaking too.  Most of those I know who live this know that being a slave is hard work, it takes a lot of commitment and while it can be wonderfully rewarding.... "cool" it is not.
Second, those who most need to see why and how it works are again that "other" group you weren't addressing.  They don't see because most of them aren't being taught, and what they are learning on their own is of questionable value.
Third, there are many who don't want to know how it works, they just want it and they want it right now.  So they look for short cuts to get there... and because we have very little in the way of standards, most of us are too timid to judge some of their idiotic short cuts for what they are.


quote:

So they read more, they join a group, they meet more people, they start to grow as people, they start choosing better partners, they learn more about themselves, they start having longer and more healthy relationships and years later, they realize who and what they are.  Now, many are going to expect me to say they realize they are slaves, nope, they realize all sorts of stuff ALL equally valid, some realize they want a lot of vanilla with some kinky sex and they are happy with that.  Some are happy being bottoms, some submissives, and a few slaves.  NONE are better, deeper, more magical, or anything better or worse than the other, they are just "right" for that person at that time.  The difference is they now have the skills to START making their choices work.

That happens in some cases, and I'd be willing to bet its the minority of them.  The larger percentage spin off in different directions.  There are those who decide this lifestyle wasn't for them and walk away, and a small percentage of those become very vocal opponents of the lifestyle.  There are those who simply never learn from their mistakes and keep repeating them over and over.  There are those who continually look for short cuts, and some of those end up in really nasty situations as a result of those bad choices.

That leaves a small group that learns, grows, and becomes something worth owning.



quote:

So, dominants go through something similar, hell I am still going through "something similar"!  They come in and look around and see that by having a slave, they don't have to put up with backtalk and high maintenance women.  Fucking GREAT!  What they don't see is how that man got there. 

So the cycle continues, Mr. Newbie walks in, sees Mr X and his slave and all he sees is this dude with a hot chick who keeps her mouth shut while Mr X plays with other women and he tries to emulate it.  Years later he becomes the new Mr. X and again the cycle continues.

And again, that only happens some of the time.  Some just walk away from the lifestyle.  Some become submissives.  Some refuse to learn and keep making the same mistakes.  And some look for short cuts.  The nasty bit is, there are short cuts.  There are lots of ways to dominate someone, and some of the easiest are the most unethical.  Just tear the submissive's self esteem down until you break their will and presto... complaint doormat slave ready to be abused.  And while the rest of us sit around arguing about what BDSM means, the difference between a submissive and a slave, a Dom and a Master, whether someone's kink is okay, RACK vs SSC, and other innane points... there's a growing community out there who doesn't give a damn about any of it and they're happily doing things the easiest way they can find (which also happens to be destructive).  But who's to say they're wrong when we as a "community" can't agree on even the simplest of terminology. 

quote:

Of course it doesn't ALWAYS work this way, but I bet MOST of the ones who say it doesn't are on their first relationship and the ones who do are in their longest.

Well, I've been in this for more than a decade and I disagree.  While what you describe happens sometimes, it doesn't happen often enough and I think in the future it will happen even less if things continue as they are.  What you describe might be the norm if there was a community that had standards.  But it assumes that they only way of getting the "hot chick" is to put in 10 years time and earn the "title".  The reality is you can be a charismatic abusive jack ass who still gets the 18 yr old hot chick and then beats her down to keep her... without putting in any time or earning a damn thing.  The fact is, in many areas, being that ethical, experienced dominant does not pay off.  Take for example a personals site just like this one.  A serious, "real" dominant looking for a genuine relationship will be selective about who they email, they don't want just anyone.  So they send out relatively few emails, they have standards and don't paint a rosy picture that isn't reality.  The troll "dom" on the other hand might send out a hundred emails a day to anything in a skirt.  As a result the personal ads are for submissives almost useless for attracting dominants because for every 1 sincere email they get, they get 100s of form letters from trolls.  That one sincere email is like a drop of rain in a downpour, and the odds are against it paying off.  Yet many of those trolls paint wonderfully rosy pictures that are very alluring and as Merc said, its all about effective marketing.  That's just one example of how other dynamics are impacting this lifestyle and changing things.

Then of course there's the fact that Mr X might not even have a "hot chick" for a slave.  Most slaves out there don't fit the "hot chick" description.  And while some of us do date models, most of you will have to accept the fact you are in the other 99% who won't.

There are, IMNSHO, many problems with BDSM and slavery, among them a lack of any standards or commonly agreed upon terminology, bad stereotypes, the insistence on viewing labels as titles rather than orientations, the fact that most people's eyes glaze over when you do get to discussing the "how and why" of things, that we can have 10 threads going on the sub vs slave debate and not a single agreed resolution but we can't agree on the importance of obedience to either.  That most of the longest running threads around here are also the ones where people are bitterly arguing, and yet the minute the arguing stops and gets back on topic... the thread often dies.

The biggest problem is, too few people actually give a damn about any of this.  Most are just here for their jollies and really couldn't care less what Mr X is doing.  They only care about his "hot chick" slave so far as they think they might be able to poach her away from him.  Or for the submissives, trying to split them up so they can have a shot at Mr X.  We don't have standards or agreed upon terminology or anything else because the majority of people in this lifestyle don't give a damn, except for themselves (so everyone fights for a personal definition of everything rather than something useful to the community).  That's the real problem here, there's the root of it all.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 2:29:24 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		This was interesting to read, but I really couldn't tell whether you intended this as fiction or as a statement about all masters and slaves.  Peach kneels at my feet, sets out the toybag when I'm with others, has learned exactly what I want, and in just about every other way exemplifies what you're talking about.  But she hasn't been with dozens of masters.  She's been with one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

The slave who kneels quietly at her master's feet or sets out his toybag in silence as he plays with another has been with dozens of masters, has played hundreds of times, and has learned exactly what she wants and this man gives her what she needs and because he knows exactly what he wants because he has done the same they can do it together, dance together flawlessly and effortlessly.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 2:56:26 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

This was interesting to read, but I really couldn't tell whether you intended this as fiction or as a statement about all masters and slaves.  Peach kneels at my feet, sets out the toybag when I'm with others, has learned exactly what I want, and in just about every other way exemplifies what you're talking about.  But she hasn't been with dozens of masters.  She's been with one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

The slave who kneels quietly at her master's feet or sets out his toybag in silence as he plays with another has been with dozens of masters, has played hundreds of times, and has learned exactly what she wants and this man gives her what she needs and because he knows exactly what he wants because he has done the same they can do it together, dance together flawlessly and effortlessly.


That's the part I pointed out about myself, also, but then that was condescendingly replied to by someone else as though my current situation is fluff and I'll just mosey over to another Master some day, and everything I've learned by this man I am so connected to will be "mute" (I think she meant moot) and won't matter anyway.

Hmm, and we wonder what is the problem with slavery and BDSM?

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 3:05:56 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Nicely worded post Crappy.

Many, on BOTH sides of the dynamic come in with their heads full of fantasy and unrealistic expectations. Then get hit will the reality and don't like the wake-up call.

The new Dom only sees the cute girl being obedient at her Masters feet and doesn't see all the work that has gone into building the dynamic, building the trust, getting the girl through the problems caused by her past or the work the Master has put into himself getting over and learning from the mistakes of his own past.

They have no perception of the depth of responcibility you take on when you put a collar around her neck. She is yours.... she is a person and frankly, most people have problems, you can't take on the girl and ignore those problems. They need support, patience, understanding, stability, intuition, perception, consistancy and above all, communication.

Even the most compatable girl on the planet still needs work and effort in order to build a good D/s or M/s dynamic. There is no quick fix, no magic wand, no easy option. It takes time. Even then, reality and every day life often throws a spanner into the works.

When it isn't given the time and work?.... you only have to look at the number of 'horror storys' and velcro collars out there to work that one out.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 3:08:17 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		The biggest flaw in the OP is that it states it as THE problem... where as it is clearly (And what I responded to) deals only with A problem 'singular'

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 4:46:05 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

It is like dancing, the whole point is to make it seem effortless but you can't see the practice, the broken heels, the bruised feet, the string of rejected dance partners that all went into what you now see as two people gliding perfectly in synch with each other.


CD, i have never seen this one expressed better, M/s is a very intricate dance and even with a partner of years you are constantly practicing and learning new steps.

quote:

Then they wake up with cum stains on their dress and a master who farts in the morning and they decide he is a fake.


ROFLMAO........ With the exception of deciding they are a fake part i imagine most of us in long term relationships still wake up this way. Around here we say"fucking bikers" to the gas and the slave (me) gets up and washes the dress.

I think the biggest secret is knowing and accepting no matter what role we take we are still human. You need to love ands serve your owner even when all they really want is a beer and to watch a ballgame or love your slave even when they are dressed in baggy clothes sweating while cutting the grass.

quote:

  The more you learn to see the more things you start to learn how complex this stuff is when you get past spank and tickle.  Sure he treats her like shit, but he has learned and she, clearly knowing herself, has been able to tell him EXACTLY how she likes to be treated like shit and together they are able to walk that fine line that neither were able to pull off for the last 10 years.


Hmmm....well i do not think i would have put it the way you did but probably in the eyes of some the slave is ill used, they are expected to serve and the dominant has their way but much like the” beating someone who enjoys it is not abuse” issue you hit the nail on the head.

quote:

Of course it doesn't ALWAYS work this way, but I bet MOST of the ones who say it doesn't are on their first relationship and the ones who do are in their longest.
 

I think you hit the nail on the head here, though some do get it right the first time.

I was collared to the same owner for 18 years (he is in the wind) and it took lots of practice but in the end we were Fred Estair and Ginger Rogers. A more seamless M/s relationship you have never seen.

Now i am collared once again, and believe me i looked for many a year, and i find myself struggling occasionally to learn the steps with my new partners. The difference is that none of us is new so we are learning each other quickly and while there are those missteps on all our parts we do know the perfect flawless times together more often than not.

And I know in the end our dance will just as seamlessly perfect, it already almost is, I love them madly.

In conclusion i would like to say "Wow you do have deep thoughts"!



_____________________________

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The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 4:51:53 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Dennis Miller once said that succesfull married folks are like ducks on water. To the casual observer, the duck just glides along effortlessly, but under the water a lot of unseen paddling is going on.

As for kink development, this week I've seen two scenes of young love with waify teenage (19ish) girls being around and flirting up to young sweet boys old enough to go to war but too young to buy alcohol. Part of me wondered if they were better off with limited experience and just the sheer raw attraction between them.

A kinky teenager's path to dominance or slavely is most bound to be a winding road --- if they ever actually find the road to begin with. It begs the "Caitlyn Question," of "how do I tell him about what I like" and "how badly will he freak out" after hearing about it.

Some people don't take their first step onto the dance floor until pretty late in life.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 6:57:03 AM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		Sunshines posts hit home with me. If someone I was interested in was to say to me, "I've had several long term relationships", that would send all the right signals to my brain. This means the person is stable, willing to work at things, and can bend and grow.  This is always a good place to start. Kinky straight gay bi whatever, this sounds like a person you want to get to know better. 

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 7:00:10 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		But what is the definition of long term? Some i have asked think that being together six months is long term. For me, i always ask for their definition so i know we are not talking apples and oranges.

(in reply to sophia37)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 7:33:15 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Padriag,

I normally find you spot on but I think you missed the boat on my post and I am not sure why.

quote:

On the one hand its preaching to the choir,


Judging by the questions asked on this board, that wouldn't seem to be the case.   And as much as my post was trying to explain something it also was making it clear that this isn't really something someone can teach, you have to just go learn it by doing. 

quote:

  First, why should it sound so cool?  Hell, the only group I know of who really thinks it sounds so cool is that "other" group you weren't speaking too. 


Uhm, when was the last time you read about someone claiming to a "high end bottom"?  The dreamy fantasy filled ones always seem to be slaves and dream of being owned.  Of course this isn't everyone but it is common enough for jokes to be written about it so it isn't only me that sees this.

quote:

  Second, those who most need to see why and how it works are again that "other" group you weren't addressing. 


Again, I am not sure this can be taught, only learned through experience.  Some who as I said, enter with good relationship skills have a shorter learning curve than others like myself who only thought they had good relationship skills take a little longer.

quote:

  The larger percentage spin off in different directions....That leaves a small group that learns, grows, and becomes something worth owning.  


Your right and so clearly so that I didn't feel the need to specifically say some come and go.

quote:

The reality is you can be a charismatic abusive jack ass who still gets the 18 yr old hot chick and then beats her down to keep her...


I agree, you just described me to a T when I entered the scene.  The problem is that I actually WANTED to keep her and ultimately couldn't.  But again, I was only speaking of the path, shorter for some, longer for idiots like myself, that takes one to a better, more healthy place.

quote:

We don't have standards or agreed upon terminology or anything else because the majority of people in this lifestyle don't give a damn, except for themselves (so everyone fights for a personal definition of everything rather than something useful to the community). 


There was more to the above but since it is on this page, I just sumarized it here.  This stuns me frankly.  There is a valid reason that we don't have labels, it isn't a weakness.  What works for me whomever I choose clearly won't work for you, nor for the other girls here.  So there is no "standard" we can adopt.  You yourself argue that some get to the point of "mr x" by different paths and different times, so there is no way to define it because it IS different. 

So the only failure I see around the drive for definitions, are those who fail to see that WIIWD is about finding unique solutions for people who have finally allowed themselves to be unique.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The problem with slavery and BDSM - 7/16/2006 12:30:19 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Three points CP

First, and Raven got this, you began your post saying that it was the problem with BDSM and slavery.  It isn't, it is merely one problem among many and in the cases where things do work as you describe its also a self correcting problem.

Second, anything that can be learned can be taught.  But not everyone can be taught.  Get the difference?  There are those individuals whom you simply can't teach because they aren't willing to learn, and usually that boils down to pride and insecurity.  I'll grant you there's plenty of that going around, submissives who think they don't need to be taught (take a look at all the threads wherein this submissive or that protests they don't need to be trained) and even more dominants who refuse to be taught purely because they're too busy tripping over their own egos.

Third point.  You ended your post with this statement.
quote:

Of course it doesn't ALWAYS work this way, but I bet MOST of the ones who say it doesn't are on their first relationship and the ones who do are in their longest.

That's a very provocative statement that needs to be challenged.  In your own post you admit, you're still learning and in some areas your own experience is still limited.  The scenario you describe is one among many, but you put it forth as though it were the only such scenario.  My post illustrated that there are a lot of other scenarios occurring out there, and that in fact, the cases where it works as you describe is probably a minority.

quote:

There was more to the above but since it is on this page, I just sumarized it here.  This stuns me frankly.  There is a valid reason that we don't have labels, it isn't a weakness.  What works for me whomever I choose clearly won't work for you, nor for the other girls here.  So there is no "standard" we can adopt.  You yourself argue that some get to the point of "mr x" by different paths and different times, so there is no way to define it because it IS different. 

So the only failure I see around the drive for definitions, are those who fail to see that WIIWD is about finding unique solutions for people who have finally allowed themselves to be unique

Okay, four points.  Here's the flaw with your logic in this.  You make the assumption that there can be no standard, but that isn't true.  I'll use a simpler example. 

Let's say I want to bake a cake.  The cake calls for 1 cup of sugar.  Now I have several choices here. 
I can use 1 cup of sugar. 
I could substitute 1 cup of Splenda if I want to cut back on the callories (personal preference).
I could experiment with 1 cup of brown sugar and see if that works (personal preference coupled with some novelty seeking behavior).
Instead of sugar I could decide to just use 1 cup of salt because I'm out of sugar but I have plenty of salt (lazy short cut). 

Now, anyone who's done some baking knows that the first two options will work and produce an edible cake.  The third option, the brown sugar, might work and is likely enough to work that it is worth trying (brown sugar is a form of sugar, so there's a basis for expecting that it might work as a substitution, though certainly it will change the flavor).  The fourth option however just isn't going to work, period, bad idea.

This lifestyle, while more complex than baking a cake, shares in common the fact that some methods will work and produce good results, some are questionable but worth experimenting with because they are still likely to produce good results (they're similar to things we know will produce good results).  And then there are those methods that are just a bad idea from the start, no good is going to come of them.  And we argue these very points at events, munches and in forums... so guess what, those standards do exist.  They're just very vague and poorly understood.  We generally believe in SSC or RACK, even if we can't agree on what they mean and sometimes get lost in pointless arguments about which is better (in my book they're two ways of saying the same damn thing).

Being unique doesn't mean its a free for all where anything is okay.  There are still things that are unhealthy, things that flatly won't work or only work by being destructive and unethical.  There are also things that do work, things that are healthy, things that are ethical.  The difference between those two large groups of possibilities is exactly where our standards should be.  But so long as this "community" keeps tripping over the idiotic idea that "anything is okay in the name of individuality" those standards will never become clearly defined, which would make them into something useful.

The irony is your own post began by defining some of the very things that don't work (or shouldn't) and some of the things that do... which is by its nature defining a standard.  If that drive for standards is a failure, welcome to the club.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to CrappyDom)
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