RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 10:54:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Years ago, when I used to carry a weapon for a living, there was a slaughter at a Texas church.

My priest came to me and asked me if I ever brought my weapon to church. I told him that I rarely did but that if I knew I had to go to work shortly after Mass, I usually had it in the glove compartment of my car (locked in there). I said I didn't think it was right or allowed to bring it into the church.

He said: "In view of what just happened in Texas, start bringing it in with you, please?"



Michael

A priest ask you to bring your gun to protect his flock....lol lol lol lol lol yeah right[8|]



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 10:57:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So therein lies the rub,the only answer to some asshole with a gun is more guns....which leads to more assholes with guns.

You don't see the issue there ?

Sure I see the issue. I'm talking to a fact-challenged gun bigot. Just for shits and giggles, why don't you see if you can back up your claim that more guns leads to more assholes with guns? I think you'll find the experience salutary. The number of people legally carrying firearms in the United States has been going up for a quarter of a century, during which time the country's homicide rate has fallen ≈50 percent.

Alternatively, you could find another hobby.

K.



I like the hobbies I have
Why don't you spend less time trying to direct me and let me worry about how I spend my time.
As for the "gun bigot crack....I've been called far worse by far better people.
Just to put a point on it....when internet idiots tell me that I'm an asshole/idiot/bigot....whatever,I know I'm on the right track.
So thanks for the affirmation [:D]



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 10:58:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I'm talking to a fact-challenged gun bigot.


Umm.......the politically correct term would be fact-challenged gunphobic[8D]

another affirmation...thanks [:)]



thompsonx -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 11:04:05 AM)


Mine was a Ruger P90 with my pockets the barrel just touched the bottom of the pocket with the trigger just concealed, I would wear a long enough shirt to cover up the exposed grip.

Ps the P90 was not any 8.5 inches.


The link gave the dimensions of a govt mod. .45 showing the length of a govt mod .45 to be 8.5"

This link shows your ruger to be .7" shorter than a govt model. By placing your finger where the trigger guard contacts the frame by the grip and trying to ballance it will show you that the part that sticks out of the pocket is the heavier end by far. Thus unless your trousers are tight enough to keep it in place it will fall out.

http://whichgun.com/pistols/view/ruger-p90


Dimensions




Type:

Full-size






Weight:

34.0 oz

(964 g)




Length:

7.8″

(197 mm)




Height:

5.8″

(147 mm)




Width:

1.26″

(32 mm)




Barrel Length:

4.5″

(114 mm)



Design




Operation:

Semi-automatic, Short recoil




Trigger:

DA/SA




Grip:

Textured polymer




Sights:

Fixed




Safety:

Slide-mounted manual safety or decocker




Hammer:

Ring-type




Rifling:

Right-hand with 6 grooves




Rifling Twist:

1 in 16"



joether -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 11:11:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
So you are fine with folks bringing their firearms to church ?

Every time some asshole walks into a church or a cafeteria or whatever and starts shooting, the first thing people do is scramble for safety and call for some guys with guns to come stop the son of a bitch. From this we can conclude that a reasonable person might detect an advantage in having a guy with a gun already there.


The guys that get called with guns, have something people like you don't have: ARRESTING POWERS. Something else they have that most do not have: COOLNESS UNDER FIRE. That second one is a trained skill in that it has to be constantly conditioned. Its not likely riding a bike and relying on muscle memory twenty years later. Its a combination of reflexes, perception, reaction, and stability.

There is a particular moment in US History I do not wish to.....*EVER*.....come to past. Some little league game were the umpire/referee makes a call some parent takes alarm to, as they believe it was a bad call. Or two parents get into a heated argument over whether one kid did something to the other in a mean spirited manner. I think most of us can understand two things here: That parents can be drawn down raw from work that day, and when this happens, its ugly. There are plenty of fist fights were one or more people are injured during the melee.

Now imagine that with firearms? Becomes more ugly, doesn't it? This could happen at a little league match, or, even a church. I've seen some pretty heated 'discussions' to which the boy's in blue were called to settle things....

A church is a sanctuary, free from violence and destruction. If there are to be armed protectors in such a place, it should be law enforcement....NOT....some gun nut whom takes matters into their own hands. What happens when two people rise with guns to deal with an armed intruder? They both are more likely to get killed, or injure/kill a bystander by accident; then to actually do damage/kill the intruder.

I think there was a gun thread just recently in which I pointed this out in two separate live-action tests. And in both tests, the 'guy with the gun' lost in every instanced they engaged. An so I stated maybe we should test this further, to see what truth and fact exists. I seem to recall you were starkly against such an idea, because you didn't want your belief/myth challenged by science. The only people whom are on that level of opposition, are the ones that know, but can not admit, their belief/myth would not hold up even fairly to a proper test.

Regardless, it doesn't help determine why violence would be brought into a sanctuary in the first place!



thishereboi -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 11:33:45 AM)

nm



joether -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 11:37:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
So therein lies the rub,the only answer to some asshole with a gun is more guns....which leads to more assholes with guns.

You don't see the issue there ?

Yep, it is better to hope they shoot someone else than to fight back.
Just because they have a gun doesn't make them a asshole.
In the example you gave earlier I would have simply put my gun in the car and left it there any time I came to your house.
Though from your discritin of the incident it sounds like you were being an asshole.

Actually, the only answer to (murdering) assholes with guns is GOOD people with guns ie; more guns in the right hands.


Who determines who has guns in the right hands? Since even police officers are known to have murdered people. If police officers whom are heavily regulated and checked very often with this firearms can 'snap' or 'turn criminal'; what does that say for anyone else with much less in the way of regulation and watchmen? Just having a firearm does not instantly and forever protect you from physical, mental, and/or emotion problems that could/can effect your mindset and judgement. An sadly, there are plenty of cases in which an individual with a firearm was compromised due to such problems. An example here would be US Soldiers whom take their own lives with a firearm (much higher than the civilian population).

We could just ban the guns. That would make it much harder as the years pass to obtain such a tool to use against other people (if Australia is any indication). I'm not in favor of such an extreme method. So try not to suggest stuff that others could take the wrong way. Particularly on firearms.

Finally, it opens a whole 'case of worms' to have a religious group determine whom is a 'good guy' to have a firearm. Plenty of examples of individuals whom should NEVER have been given such arms, nor the authority to lord over others because someone appointed in a religious authority granted them 'protector' status. In the USA, we have this concept called 'Separation of Church and State'.



Aylee -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 11:38:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Regardless, it doesn't help determine why violence would be brought into a sanctuary in the first place!



Same reason that it is brought into "gun free zones."

Laws do not mean a lot to those intent on criminal mischief.



Kirata -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 11:39:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Something else they have that most do not have: COOLNESS UNDER FIRE.

Yeah, cuz they're so well trained and all. Real IPSC material.

Innocent Down
Documenting victims of police violence

K.





Kirata -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:02:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

police officers whom are heavily regulated and checked very often with this firearms

most police departments only train about two times a year, averaging less than 15 hours annually... During a poll taken during this class which represented about a half dozen Florida law enforcement agencies, I asked how many train more than twice a year. No hands went up. When asked how many train or qualify with their duty guns only once a year. Everyone raised their hands. ~PoliceOne

K.



lovmuffin -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:24:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Since even police officers are known to have murdered people. If police officers whom are heavily regulated and checked very often with this firearms can 'snap' or 'turn criminal'; what does that say for anyone else with much less in the way of regulation and watchmen?


Did you just maybe clue yourself in just a little on why we have a Second Amendment ?



thompsonx -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:34:28 PM)

The guys that get called with guns, have something people like you don't have: ARRESTING POWERS.

I believe you are mistaken. Citizens may make a citizens arrest. The differences are that whe a one makes a citizen's arrest if you are wrong you are open to civil and criminal penalities. Less so with cops.


Something else they have that most do not have: COOLNESS UNDER FIRE.

I remain unconvinced that either the incident in furgistan and stanten island validate your opinion.


That second one is a trained skill in that it has to be constantly conditioned. Its not likely riding a bike and relying on muscle memory twenty years later. Its a combination of reflexes, perception, reaction, and stability.

Comodities which, cops on a daily basis, are found to lack.



joether -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:39:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Since even police officers are known to have murdered people. If police officers whom are heavily regulated and checked very often with this firearms can 'snap' or 'turn criminal'; what does that say for anyone else with much less in the way of regulation and watchmen?

Did you just maybe clue yourself in just a little on why we have a Second Amendment ?


Unlike you, I don't ignore the first half of that amendment because its politically inconvenient to my arguments. Can you say the same?

The first four words in particular?




thompsonx -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:42:29 PM)

Did you just maybe clue yourself in just a little on why we have a Second Amendment ?

For those who are unaware of the reason for the 2nd ammendment perhaps a little reading of the anti-federalist papers, especially those by george mason and patrick henry



PeonForHer -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:42:52 PM)

quote:

A church is a sanctuary, free from violence and destruction.


It's also supposed to be God's house, isn't it? Would God invite people carrying guns into his house? The answer looks like it's going to be 'Yes'.



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:43:31 PM)

oh,oh,oh,....I know the answer !!!!!


Can I answer it ?



A well regulated Militia .....



lovmuffin -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:46:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

COOLNESS UNDER FIRE........is a trained skill in that it has to be constantly conditioned. Its not likely riding a bike and relying on muscle memory twenty years later. Its a combination of reflexes, perception, reaction, and stability.


Oh good, now we can get our marksmanship instruction from you[8D]



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:47:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

A church is a sanctuary, free from violence and destruction.


It's also supposed to be God's house, isn't it? Would God invite people carrying guns into his house? The answer looks like it's going to be 'Yes'.

Again,I'm going to have to justify this....raised Irish Catholic ,lapsed would be a kind description of my current relationship with my church.
Unsure would be a good description of my relationship with God himself,as to whether or not he exists.
But any version I have ,any understanding I had of my god.......the answer would be "no"
I attended Church as a child,it never occurred to me that anyone would have a gun in there.



lovmuffin -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:49:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Since even police officers are known to have murdered people. If police officers whom are heavily regulated and checked very often with this firearms can 'snap' or 'turn criminal'; what does that say for anyone else with much less in the way of regulation and watchmen?

Did you just maybe clue yourself in just a little on why we have a Second Amendment ?


Unlike you, I don't ignore the first half of that amendment because its politically inconvenient to my arguments. Can you say the same?

The first four words in particular?




Unlike you I don't deliberately misinterpret the militia clause to suit my own utopian world view.



slvemike4u -> RE: Gun goes off in Altoona church during Easter Vigil mass (4/6/2015 12:51:58 PM)

There is no need to "misinterpret"the militia clause.....just acknowledge they are there [8|]



Here's a short piece on the militia clause....
http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/so-you-think-you-know-the-second-amendment




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