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RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/13/2015 7:29:25 PM   
HunterCA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


Jester I like your new picture better. But, I'm still waiting for joether's CO2 wisdom. My comments, which joether derided, were made with a solid foundation in fluid mechanics. Which I wasn't allowed to study until I'd matriculated in thermodynamics, which I wasn't allowed to take until I'd accomplished three semesters of both physics and calculus. So, Since joether is going to enlighten me on CO2 gas, I'm all aquiver in anticipation. But he seems to have disappeared when I asked him to put up or shut up. I'm beginning to wonder now.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/13/2015 9:17:54 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


And climate change fits into this how?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/14/2015 4:37:39 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I understand tone is hard to discern when you can only read words and not hear a persons voice or see his face, but im pretty forthright when I state my principles and very assertive (and i hope clear) when I am in disagreement with something or someone I am replying to. I understand "passive aggressive" and I don't think its a characteristic I embody or employ.

im not debating the accuracy of your post about Cameron, as i said, im genuinely wondering how he achieves those ends without compromising conservative principles. and I don't mean that in a broad generic sort of way that's answered by "working with businesses and people concerned about the environment" but rather how does he actually does so from the perspective of conservatism.

this is, I think, actually a good question I hope everyone takes up.


Some of you Americans have a totally different view of what constitutes true conservatism, just as some of you cant distinguish bettwen communism and socialist. Cameron and his party feel that the question of global warming is one that has to be taken seriously and needs to be paid for partly by the public purse. That said, it wouldnt surprise me if the arsehole went back on his word, just as he did when saying he wouldnt privatise the NHS (Labour were no better prior to 2010 when Cameron first gained power.)

You speak of interesting questions from a conservative viewpoint, how about this one. Why is it okay for conservatives to spend vast amounts of public funds on just about anything they see as necessary, but not on health care for all or benefits for the needy ? It is very noticable that many of you claiming to want smaller government and less public spending have been happy to follow career paths as government employees.

I dont see that as wrong, except in some cases it is certainly hypocritical.

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/14/2015 4:46:32 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


And climate change fits into this how?


How did does US Governments selling arms overseas, or indeed the CIA convertly arming rebels to bring down communist regimes fit into the US Consitution ?

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/14/2015 5:51:06 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


And climate change fits into this how?


How did does US Governments selling arms overseas, or indeed the CIA convertly arming rebels to bring down communist regimes fit into the US Consitution ?



Defense.

However, the topic is climate change.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 5:05:31 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		I just posted this in another thread, and it seems like a good definition of conservatism that most people would agree is accurate:

"principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."

the argument of "how does so and so or such and such" fit into the constitution when it seemingly (and maybe doesn't) is almost a non-starter. its like when liberals would argue with conservatives and say "yeah but George bush", as if he were himself a champion of conservatism and since he did it, we therefore don't have a right to complain when Obama does it. while there was much about president bush I liked, he was not totally that.

so pointing out how government republicans act in ways contrary to conservatism and asking if that's consistent with the constitution isn't really answering the question about combating climate change while staying true to conservative principles.

as to health care for the needy---there are already things in place for them, as are other safety net type things. im not aware of any conservatives out there calling for an end to helping the poor and needy.

the health care question is a good one---the conservative response to what health care crisis we have here was to get the government out of the health care business and allow the market place to be more at work. it also emphasized individual freedom, as well as responsibility.

in any event, I am still wondering how a conservative government gets itself involved with combating "climate change" without compromising principles. unless, as I suspect might be the case, its not all that conservative to begin with.

"paying for it with the public purse" starts down the road of larger government, and so far as we've experienced it here in America, also interferes with free enterprise if not individual freedom also.



< Message edited by bounty44 -- 5/15/2015 5:13:41 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 7:55:45 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		that may be the current definition of conservatism, but it is not the traditional one.

And I wont spend a great deal of time pointing out that saying those things is a whole lot different than doing them.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 7:57:12 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


And climate change fits into this how?



if you dont see it, dont know what to tell ya. Maybe read more.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 2:37:23 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		The original link cited was about the CO2 levels being the highest ever detectable. No, they were not higher in recorded history ever. And this includes geological measures of CO2 levels in the atmosphere.
___________________________________

To date; the alternatives to fossil fuel are a study in ineffectual attempts to achieve money grants if you look at it as ways to lower dependence on fossil fuel. Solar and wind generation are popular but the engineering isn't there to make them an effective replacement. With current technology; nuclear is the most effective way to generate power. The problem with nuclear is that it is anathema to the environmentalists when in actuality it is the power generation that has the least effect on the environment. And disposal of the spent fuel would be no problem if the U.S. Government had lived up to the commitment it made in 1972 to take custody of call spent fuel for recycling by 1998.

Trust the Washington bandits to do what they committed to do? Bwahahahahahahah

Now we hear noises about needing to spend money on maintenance of our infrastructure in light of the Amtrak train accident. Short memory dudes; the Corps of Engineers was saying the transportation and electric distribution network had been neglected to a critical point back in 1985. The tendency of ignoring infrastructure until catastrophe is just like the attitude on the levees in New Orleans. It was known in the 1960s that the levees were insufficient along the Mississippi River but no one paid attention until they broke and flooded New Orleans.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 2:48:31 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, and I'll look for a citation. The Corp tried to fix the levees that eventfully broke during Katrina twice. The projects were shut down by environmentalists twice.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 3:07:55 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

that may be the current definition of conservatism, but it is not the traditional one.

And I wont spend a great deal of time pointing out that saying those things is a whole lot different than doing them.


"traditional American values, and a strong national defense" ... would be mainstays of traditional Conservatism. "... principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom.." are principles of what would be called 'classical lliberalism' in most Western countries. Present-day Republicanism is neo-Right and combines neoclassical liberalism with authoritarian conservatism.

Or at least that's what the kids here have to say, or they fail their Politics and Government exams.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 3:12:05 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

The original link cited was about the CO2 levels being the highest ever detectable. No, they were not higher in recorded history ever. And this includes geological measures of CO2 levels in the atmosphere.
___________________________________

To date; the alternatives to fossil fuel are a study in ineffectual attempts to achieve money grants if you look at it as ways to lower dependence on fossil fuel. Solar and wind generation are popular but the engineering isn't there to make them an effective replacement. With current technology; nuclear is the most effective way to generate power. The problem with nuclear is that it is anathema to the environmentalists when in actuality it is the power generation that has the least effect on the environment. And disposal of the spent fuel would be no problem if the U.S. Government had lived up to the commitment it made in 1972 to take custody of call spent fuel for recycling by 1998.

Trust the Washington bandits to do what they committed to do? Bwahahahahahahah

Now we hear noises about needing to spend money on maintenance of our infrastructure in light of the Amtrak train accident. Short memory dudes; the Corps of Engineers was saying the transportation and electric distribution network had been neglected to a critical point back in 1985. The tendency of ignoring infrastructure until catastrophe is just like the attitude on the levees in New Orleans. It was known in the 1960s that the levees were insufficient along the Mississippi River but no one paid attention until they broke and flooded New Orleans.


The heavy flooding caused by Hurricane Betsy in 1965 brought concerns regarding flooding from hurricanes to the forefront. That year, through enactment of the Flood Control Act of 1965 (FCA 1965) Congress authorized the Pontchartrain Hurricane Protection Project. FCA 1965 reiterated the principle of local participation in federally funded projects. The local interests' role was maintenance once the work was complete. Although federally authorized, it was a joint federal, state, and local effort.[3] Almost from the start, the design was impacted by changes due to technical issues, environmental concerns, legal challenges, and local opposition by those opposed to the project.[3] The project was initially estimated to take 13 years, but when Katrina struck in 2005, almost 40 years later, the project was only 60–90% complete with a revised projected completion date of 2015.[citation needed]

Found here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_levee_failures_in_Greater_New_Orleans

But, frankly, there has been a load of studies done since Katrina and I hesitate to say this was the only error made.

Here is from the CATO institute, which I understand is not held in high regard on this site:

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/usace


(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 3:26:12 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Crazy talk

Its all Bushs fault

He is the devil I tell ya

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 3:33:17 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		i love the cato institute hunter---am guessing you are referring to the leftists who object to it...

maybe the Koch brothers created and staffed that one too and are in the process of fooling us.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 5/15/2015 3:41:55 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 4:12:23 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


And climate change fits into this how?


How did does US Governments selling arms overseas, or indeed the CIA convertly arming rebels to bring down communist regimes fit into the US Consitution ?



Defense.

However, the topic is climate change.


Bullshit, my question is valid, why is one type of "big government" okay but another not, according to what was set out in your Constitution. Financially profitable arms deals in exchange for oil isnt defense, it`s trade.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 4:15:55 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

that may be the current definition of conservatism, but it is not the traditional one.

And I wont spend a great deal of time pointing out that saying those things is a whole lot different than doing them.


It isnt even the accepted definition in most of the EU.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 4:46:53 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


And climate change fits into this how?


How did does US Governments selling arms overseas, or indeed the CIA convertly arming rebels to bring down communist regimes fit into the US Consitution ?




Preamble:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Article I
Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

I personally really like that Letter of Marque thingy. We got that from you guys.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 5:23:38 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Crazy talk

Its all Bushs fault

He is the devil I tell ya


I thought that Katrina was cause by Karl Rove's weather machine.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 5:28:20 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.


And climate change fits into this how?


How did does US Governments selling arms overseas, or indeed the CIA convertly arming rebels to bring down communist regimes fit into the US Consitution ?



Defense.

However, the topic is climate change.


Bullshit, my question is valid, why is one type of "big government" okay but another not, according to what was set out in your Constitution. Financially profitable arms deals in exchange for oil isnt defense, it`s trade.



Article 1 Section 8 deals with trade. "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"

Again, the topic is climate change.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: CO2 levels hit a record high.. - 5/15/2015 5:41:55 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		No one here seems willing to address the fact that global warming and cooling, as part of the natural history of the planet, have been determined through rock and ice core samples for decades. Whether or not humans are causing or aggrevating the natural course of the planet and what it will eventually do anyhow, why aren't people (in general) giving the topic a more appropriate title and following up, perhaps something like

"The Study of Things That Could Wipe Out the Entire Human Race (Other Than Itself)"?

I think humans do aggrevate the natural course of the planet's evolution, yes. I also think it will happen whether we do anything or not, and that if we're looking for reasons to care, potential extinction (be it were hundreds of thousands of years or a handful of decades in the future) should top the list. The only real factors in the whole drama surrounding the topic of climate change that should be scrutinized are urgency and practicality. When do we need the solution, and what kind of resources would finding a solution take? (As opposed to "does this even really exist?", which is an approach that baffles me.)

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 140
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