quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

You may laugh all you like, but the actual facts are the actual facts.

It is true that a small number of people travel to the USA to receive pioneering treatments, just as they travel to Switzerland, Germany or the UK.

The fact that a statistically tiny number of people cross borders to obtain a specific treatment doesn't have a meaningful impact on the fact that... broadly speaking you pay double for the same outcome.

I am not judging yiu for this ideological stance, it is your choice. We have the same choice too in Europe, and some opt to take it. But claims about the superiority of the us health system as a whole are simply ignorant of the facts.

quote:

On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

quote:

Canada has one of the lowest rates of MRI scanning machines per capita in the developed world, with six MRI scanners per million people, compared to 40.1 in Japan, 14.4 in Switzerland and 26.6 in the United States. Pittsburgh alone has more MRI machines than all of Canada.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

You may laugh all you like, but the actual facts are the actual facts.

It is true that a small number of people travel to the USA to receive pioneering treatments, just as they travel to Switzerland, Germany or the UK.

The fact that a statistically tiny number of people cross borders to obtain a specific treatment doesn't have a meaningful impact on the fact that... broadly speaking you pay double for the same outcome.

I am not judging yiu for this ideological stance, it is your choice. We have the same choice too in Europe, and some opt to take it. But claims about the superiority of the us health system as a whole are simply ignorant of the facts.

Two things, people in Canada cross the border to get treatment that they'd have to wait eons for in Canada. And, generally, they take home the bills for the services rendered and submit them to their national insurance to be paid. So they do it more often than you suppose, do it for reasons you don't suggest and don't pay double for it. I will admit, I get that from conversations with Canadians and I could be wrong. A Canadian could tell us. And I'm pretty sure that's not been included in your studies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

You may laugh all you like, but the actual facts are the actual facts.

It is true that a small number of people travel to the USA to receive pioneering treatments, just as they travel to Switzerland, Germany or the UK.

The fact that a statistically tiny number of people cross borders to obtain a specific treatment doesn't have a meaningful impact on the fact that... broadly speaking you pay double for the same outcome.

I am not judging yiu for this ideological stance, it is your choice. We have the same choice too in Europe, and some opt to take it. But claims about the superiority of the us health system as a whole are simply ignorant of the facts.

Two things, people in Canada cross the border to get treatment that they'd have to wait eons for in Canada. And, generally, they take home the bills for the services rendered and submit them to their national insurance to be paid. So they do it more often than you suppose, do it for reasons you don't suggest and don't pay double for it. I will admit, I get that from conversations with Canadians and I could be wrong. A Canadian could tell us. And I'm pretty sure that's not been included in your studies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

You may laugh all you like, but the actual facts are the actual facts.

It is true that a small number of people travel to the USA to receive pioneering treatments, just as they travel to Switzerland, Germany or the UK.

The fact that a statistically tiny number of people cross borders to obtain a specific treatment doesn't have a meaningful impact on the fact that... broadly speaking you pay double for the same outcome.

I am not judging yiu for this ideological stance, it is your choice. We have the same choice too in Europe, and some opt to take it. But claims about the superiority of the us health system as a whole are simply ignorant of the facts.

Two things, people in Canada cross the border to get treatment that they'd have to wait eons for in Canada. And, generally, they take home the bills for the services rendered and submit them to their national insurance to be paid. So they do it more often than you suppose, do it for reasons you don't suggest and don't pay double for it. I will admit, I get that from conversations with Canadians and I could be wrong. A Canadian could tell us. And I'm pretty sure that's not been included in your studies.

The studies consider many factors, I would encourage you to look at some of them. While, of course, you can rely on your own personal experiences, but,,, as you admit, those experiences aren't necessarily representative.

If I went by my own direct and personal experiences of both systems, my view might match yours. When I lived in the USA for 3 years my job came with fabulous health coverage. So, yeah... if you or your company is prepared to spend a shit ton of money you're going to have a particular experience.

At the risk of repeating myself, the point I was making was that you're plainly very poorly informed about the health systems in other nations.

There may be good ideological reasons why you're so anxious to pay double, but.... without wishing to sound like a broken record. The actual quality of treatment .... taken as a whole... simply is not one of them.

I hope I've been able to help!

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

So, I'm just having trouble seeing it and it seems you're the one uninformed crazy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

You may laugh all you like, but the actual facts are the actual facts.

It is true that a small number of people travel to the USA to receive pioneering treatments, just as they travel to Switzerland, Germany or the UK.

The fact that a statistically tiny number of people cross borders to obtain a specific treatment doesn't have a meaningful impact on the fact that... broadly speaking you pay double for the same outcome.

I am not judging yiu for this ideological stance, it is your choice. We have the same choice too in Europe, and some opt to take it. But claims about the superiority of the us health system as a whole are simply ignorant of the facts.

Two things, people in Canada cross the border to get treatment that they'd have to wait eons for in Canada. And, generally, they take home the bills for the services rendered and submit them to their national insurance to be paid. So they do it more often than you suppose, do it for reasons you don't suggest and don't pay double for it. I will admit, I get that from conversations with Canadians and I could be wrong. A Canadian could tell us. And I'm pretty sure that's not been included in your studies.

Actually, no they dont. A few people might cross the border to the US, but not that many, imo. Unless the treatment has been approved by the Province's health care plan before crossing the border those people pay it themselves so they tend to have to have the money in the bank first (which means they tend to be well off & have that choice)... if there is no compelling reason for them to be going to the US the province will say no, wait your turn in our system or pay it yourself.. If a Canadian goes on a trip to the US and needs medical attention, Canada wont pay for it either, you are expected to have travel insurance that pays for it..

Some of the people that might cross are, as an example, those of certain ethnicity that want male children and want to know the sex as early as possible if the fetus is not a male.. http://erlc.com/article/life-digest-clinic-advertises-sex-selection

Most Canadians are happy with the system, and use it as it is set up.. according to this 99.39%

http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-03-2012/myths-canada-health-care.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Case in point:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279

quote:

On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

http://www.bcliving.ca/health/mri-scans-waiting-for-public-health-care-vs-paying-for-a-private-mri-clinic

quote:

Canada has one of the lowest rates of MRI scanning machines per capita in the developed world, with six MRI scanners per million people, compared to 40.1 in Japan, 14.4 in Switzerland and 26.6 in the United States. Pittsburgh alone has more MRI machines than all of Canada.

As I said above, socialized medicine is really good at doing things to keep the complaints down. Such as women's health and children's health, but don't get caught needing serious medicine.

I guess this sort of thing wasn't included in the aforesaid studies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Case in point:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279

quote:

On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

http://www.bcliving.ca/health/mri-scans-waiting-for-public-health-care-vs-paying-for-a-private-mri-clinic

quote:

Canada has one of the lowest rates of MRI scanning machines per capita in the developed world, with six MRI scanners per million people, compared to 40.1 in Japan, 14.4 in Switzerland and 26.6 in the United States. Pittsburgh alone has more MRI machines than all of Canada.

As I said above, socialized medicine is really good at doing things to keep the complaints down. Such as women's health and children's health, but don't get caught needing serious medicine.

I guess this sort of thing wasn't included in the aforesaid studies.

anyplace where the population is low is not gonna have the facilities a big city will, that is true in all countries, including the US.. that is why US seniors look very closely at medical facilities whenever they research a city/town to retire in..

Part of the reason US health care costs so much more than it needs to is cuz of all the unneeded & costly tests and MRIs are included in that.. its another "profit center" and all part of that great American capitalism..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/health/mris-often-overused-often-mislead-doctors-warn.html?_r=0

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Granted about population. Yet what is the population of Pittsburg compared to Canada. And, why am I paying the same as people in France while they have a 30% deductible and I dont. And I don't have to wisit until the government decides what I need. The last point alone is crazy to me. The concept that the State gets between me and my doctor is...well it's actually contrary to Roe vs Wade.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Granted about population. Yet what is the population of Pittsburg compared to Canada. And, why am I paying the same as people in France while they have a 30% deductible and I dont. And I don't have to wisit until the government decides what I need. The last point alone is crazy to me. The concept that the State gets between me and my doctor is...well it's actually contrary to Roe vs Wade.

The govt in Canada doesnt get between the patient and the doctor.. if the doctor feels you need some test or operation then you get it, the govt doesnt keep you from getting it or decide what you need..

While you talk about Roe vs Wade, I just read about how many clinics here in TX have been shut down by your govt.. so what is all this you are talking about being crazy??? Thank gawd Canada doesnt keep dragging women & women's rights back into the dark ages like the govt in the US does..

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/federal-court-texas-law-will-close-majority-abortion-clinics

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Granted about population. Yet what is the population of Pittsburg compared to Canada. And, why am I paying the same as people in France while they have a 30% deductible and I dont. And I don't have to wisit until the government decides what I need. The last point alone is crazy to me. The concept that the State gets between me and my doctor is...well it's actually contrary to Roe vs Wade.

The govt in Canada doesnt get between the patient and the doctor.. if the doctor feels you need some test or operation then you get it, the govt doesnt keep you from getting it or decide what you need..

While you talk about Roe vs Wade, I just read about how many clinics here in TX have been shut down by your govt.. so what is all this you are talking about being crazy??? Thank gawd Canada doesnt keep dragging women & women's rights back into the dark ages like the govt in the US does..

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/federal-court-texas-law-will-close-majority-abortion-clinics

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I haven't been following the thread and I might be missing some of the context/timing when I say what I am about to say---the democratic party platform and the communist party platform share a great deal in common.

ive mentioned this before here and some of the forum comrades got all bent out of shape over that.

quote:

That was the theme of Horowitz’s speech as he continued: how the communists had taken over the Democratic Party. “The communist party is the Democratic Party,” Horowitz stated. “In The Great Gatsby, [F. Scott] Fitzgerald describes the rich as people who break things and leave them for others to clean up. That is a wonderful description of the left.” Horowitz, who began as a radical Marxist, said that the modern left had learned stealth from their failures in the 1960s: “The left have learned from the 1960s…we in the 1960s didn’t want to pretend to be Jeffersonian democrats…That’s why we failed in the 1960s. That’s why they’ve succeeded now.”

But the right, Horowitz pointed out, has failed to acknowledge that reality. On Obamacare, for example, Horowitz railed against the language used by the left: “single-payer.” Instead, he said, “it is communism,” pointing out that it was state ownership of the means of production. He added, “The left hate the Constitution because Madison designed it to thwart them.”...

Horowitz summed up pessimistically: “We are within reach of a totalitarian state in this country…These are very very dark days for this country.” But, Horowitz held out hope: “there’s been an earthquake on the conservative side since I switched sides…the tea party is the earthquake. The best thing that Republicans can do is stop the fratricide.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2013/11/12/horowitz-blasts-left-heritage/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/962342/posts

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Case in point:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279

quote:

On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

http://www.bcliving.ca/health/mri-scans-waiting-for-public-health-care-vs-paying-for-a-private-mri-clinic

quote:

Canada has one of the lowest rates of MRI scanning machines per capita in the developed world, with six MRI scanners per million people, compared to 40.1 in Japan, 14.4 in Switzerland and 26.6 in the United States. Pittsburgh alone has more MRI machines than all of Canada.

As I said above, socialized medicine is really good at doing things to keep the complaints down. Such as women's health and children's health, but don't get caught needing serious medicine.

I guess this sort of thing wasn't included in the aforesaid studies.

anyplace where the population is low is not gonna have the facilities a big city will, that is true in all countries, including the US.. that is why US seniors look very closely at medical facilities whenever they research a city/town to retire in..

Part of the reason US health care costs so much more than it needs to is cuz of all the unneeded & costly tests and MRIs are included in that.. its another "profit center" and all part of that great American capitalism..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/health/mris-often-overused-often-mislead-doctors-warn.html?_r=0

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Granted about population. Yet what is the population of Pittsburg compared to Canada. And, why am I paying the same as people in France while they have a 30% deductible and I dont. And I don't have to wisit until the government decides what I need. The last point alone is crazy to me. The concept that the State gets between me and my doctor is...well it's actually contrary to Roe vs Wade.

The govt in Canada doesnt get between the patient and the doctor.. if the doctor feels you need some test or operation then you get it, the govt doesnt keep you from getting it or decide what you need..

While you talk about Roe vs Wade, I just read about how many clinics here in TX have been shut down by your govt.. so what is all this you are talking about being crazy??? Thank gawd Canada doesnt keep dragging women & women's rights back into the dark ages like the govt in the US does..

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/federal-court-texas-law-will-close-majority-abortion-clinics

Excuse me, I may have misunderstood. Didn't you say,"if there is no compelling reason for them to be going to the US the province will say no, wait your turn in our system or pay it yourself." Isn't the Province the government?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Case in point:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279

quote:

On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

http://www.bcliving.ca/health/mri-scans-waiting-for-public-health-care-vs-paying-for-a-private-mri-clinic

quote:

Canada has one of the lowest rates of MRI scanning machines per capita in the developed world, with six MRI scanners per million people, compared to 40.1 in Japan, 14.4 in Switzerland and 26.6 in the United States. Pittsburgh alone has more MRI machines than all of Canada.

As I said above, socialized medicine is really good at doing things to keep the complaints down. Such as women's health and children's health, but don't get caught needing serious medicine.

I guess this sort of thing wasn't included in the aforesaid studies.

anyplace where the population is low is not gonna have the facilities a big city will, that is true in all countries, including the US.. that is why US seniors look very closely at medical facilities whenever they research a city/town to retire in..

Part of the reason US health care costs so much more than it needs to is cuz of all the unneeded & costly tests and MRIs are included in that.. its another "profit center" and all part of that great American capitalism..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/health/mris-often-overused-often-mislead-doctors-warn.html?_r=0

With reference to your link. The last time I needed knee surgery my primary care physician sent me to have an MRI, no waiting by the way, and shot it, with me, over to a sports musician orthopedic surgeon, no waiting by the way. The surgeon looked at it, ask me what was wrong and groaned. He told me what may be your problem will not show up on an MRI. Called a nurse who walked me down the hall and did an x-ray, no waiting by the way, and took me back to my room. In about 15 minutes the doctor came in my my x-ray, no waiting by the way, and told me exactly what was wrong and said I did need surgery. He sent me to the front desk to schedule surgery, no waiting by the way, for two weeks out. So, there is probably some validity to your NYT article. But, with no government involved, from start to finish it was three weeks and a couple of hundred dollars in co-pay. But, I'm pretty sure that talking to the experienced orthopedic would have precluded that so I'm glad, if there are docs doing unnecessary tests it's being weeded out. Any system can get better or be taken advantage of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I haven't been following the thread and I might be missing some of the context/timing when I say what I am about to say---the democratic party platform and the communist party platform share a great deal in common.

ive mentioned this before here and some of the forum comrades got all bent out of shape over that.

quote:

That was the theme of Horowitz’s speech as he continued: how the communists had taken over the Democratic Party. “The communist party is the Democratic Party,” Horowitz stated. “In The Great Gatsby, [F. Scott] Fitzgerald describes the rich as people who break things and leave them for others to clean up. That is a wonderful description of the left.” Horowitz, who began as a radical Marxist, said that the modern left had learned stealth from their failures in the 1960s: “The left have learned from the 1960s…we in the 1960s didn’t want to pretend to be Jeffersonian democrats…That’s why we failed in the 1960s. That’s why they’ve succeeded now.”

But the right, Horowitz pointed out, has failed to acknowledge that reality. On Obamacare, for example, Horowitz railed against the language used by the left: “single-payer.” Instead, he said, “it is communism,” pointing out that it was state ownership of the means of production. He added, “The left hate the Constitution because Madison designed it to thwart them.”...

Horowitz summed up pessimistically: “We are within reach of a totalitarian state in this country…These are very very dark days for this country.” But, Horowitz held out hope: “there’s been an earthquake on the conservative side since I switched sides…the tea party is the earthquake. The best thing that Republicans can do is stop the fratricide.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2013/11/12/horowitz-blasts-left-heritage/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/962342/posts

Wow... This Horowitz guy beats some of the most moronic posts I have seen on here. Is there such a thing as a super moron? If there is, then David Horowitz embodies super-moronism.

Who reads this stuff?

He starts off with healthcare. A topic he knows nothing about. Single-payer is Communism???
Why do you say that? I might ask :)

His answer: "State ownership of the means of production" Ummmm....

Does he know what single-payer is??? Does he know that health insurance is NOT production?

I am no expert on Marx, but this guy clearly isn't either. Nor is he an expert on anything.


Obama, Horowitz claimed, is a deep believer in this concept, all the way down to his carpet in the Oval Office, which assures those who enter that the moral arc of the universe bends toward justice. “Leftism is a crypto-religion,” he explained. “They see themselves as a savior. People who believe that redemption will take place in this life and I will be a part of it, that’s Hitler. That’s Mao…That’s the American left.”

Yes. It's Obama's carpet that represents seeing himself as a savior. How profound!


Third, Horowitz said that the left was characterized by “alienation from this country… What weakens America is actually good.” Horowitz cited the Obama administration’s eager withdrawal from Iraq as evidence of that proposition:

Yes. Obama withdrew from Iraq to weaken America, because it's good! Nothing to do with the fact that his predecessor signed a deal for our troops to leave. No.

Nothing to do with the fact, that there was no exit strategy when we went in there. Nope.

Nothing to do, with the fact that there was noting militarily to accomplish at that point for our troops that would help long-term Iraqi stability. Nope.

Obama was thinking, "I want to weaken America, because it's good!"


People actually read this stuff and drink this kool-aid. I haven't met one, but I have seen them on TV!

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Case in point:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/AcuteCoronarySyndrome/18279

quote:

On the other hand, Newfoundland -- with a population of about 500,000, less than Wyoming -- is less well equipped. Doctors in the province do coronary artery bypass grafts (CABG) and other common procedures, but often send patients elsewhere in the country for transplants or rare operations.

http://www.bcliving.ca/health/mri-scans-waiting-for-public-health-care-vs-paying-for-a-private-mri-clinic

quote:

Canada has one of the lowest rates of MRI scanning machines per capita in the developed world, with six MRI scanners per million people, compared to 40.1 in Japan, 14.4 in Switzerland and 26.6 in the United States. Pittsburgh alone has more MRI machines than all of Canada.

As I said above, socialized medicine is really good at doing things to keep the complaints down. Such as women's health and children's health, but don't get caught needing serious medicine.

I guess this sort of thing wasn't included in the aforesaid studies.

anyplace where the population is low is not gonna have the facilities a big city will, that is true in all countries, including the US.. that is why US seniors look very closely at medical facilities whenever they research a city/town to retire in..

Part of the reason US health care costs so much more than it needs to is cuz of all the unneeded & costly tests and MRIs are included in that.. its another "profit center" and all part of that great American capitalism..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/health/mris-often-overused-often-mislead-doctors-warn.html?_r=0

With reference to your link. The last time I needed knee surgery my primary care physician sent me to have an MRI, no waiting by the way, and shot it, with me, over to a sports musician orthopedic surgeon, no waiting by the way. The surgeon looked at it, ask me what was wrong and groaned. He told me what may be your problem will not show up on an MRI. Called a nurse who walked me down the hall and did an x-ray, no waiting by the way, and took me back to my room. In about 15 minutes the doctor came in my my x-ray, no waiting by the way, and told me exactly what was wrong and said I did need surgery. He sent me to the front desk to schedule surgery, no waiting by the way, for two weeks out. So, there is probably some validity to your NYT article. But, with no government involved, from start to finish it was three weeks and a couple of hundred dollars in co-pay. But, I'm pretty sure that talking to the experienced orthopedic would have precluded that so I'm glad, if there are docs doing unnecessary tests it's being weeded out. Any system can get better or be taken advantage of.

I would say that you are lucky, from what i have read few Americans get that kind of medical care or can afford it..