quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Sounds like solid and good government at work. Making sure an one individual household is hooked up the city water system. Even if not a drop is used, its there in the case of an emergency. Fires do start in people's homes all the time. Its sometimes a good idea to have....something...to help keep a fire back until the professionals show up.

There is no realistic constitutional question here. The town can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The State can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The federal government can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. All three of these entities are created 'Of the People, By the People, For the People". RealOne forgets very often that we do not live in a dictatorship, in which Realone, is the dictator. We live in a democratic republic. An that if people feel a law should be changed, can do so by informing the public and running a campaign in the political environment.

Well, I've never actually seen a fire truck hook up to the kitchen faucet in a house. They usually use a fire hydrant outside which already is hooked up and belongs to the city. So even though you're trying to sound reasonable, as usual, your analogy just doesn't understand the topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
Oh and Joe, the vast majority of house fires start as grease fires in the kitchen. You don't use the kitchen sink water on them either. You should have a rated fire extinguisher in the kitchen and by the front door. The front door one is because as you are rushing out of the home in panick and realize it's just a little grease fire, the extinguisher is right there beside you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Sounds like solid and good government at work. Making sure an one individual household is hooked up the city water system. Even if not a drop is used, its there in the case of an emergency. Fires do start in people's homes all the time. Its sometimes a good idea to have....something...to help keep a fire back until the professionals show up.

There is no realistic constitutional question here. The town can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The State can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The federal government can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. All three of these entities are created 'Of the People, By the People, For the People". RealOne forgets very often that we do not live in a dictatorship, in which Realone, is the dictator. We live in a democratic republic. An that if people feel a law should be changed, can do so by informing the public and running a campaign in the political environment.

Well, I've never actually seen a fire truck hook up to the kitchen faucet in a house. They usually use a fire hydrant outside which already is hooked up and belongs to the city. So even though you're trying to sound reasonable, as usual, your analogy just doesn't understand the topic.

An where are those fire hydrants located? Outside the house of the person bitching about not wanting to have 'on grid' water system. In the unlikely event that the fire fighters are not able to get the fire hydrant operational, they do get creative on dealing with the problem until a better option presents itself.

That things do not go perfectly on every fire fighting event should not be considered 'unheard of'. Usually things go wrong here and there. For one reason or another. Yes, even professionals can fuck up from time to time. Equipment could have break downs. That I can recognize this without having to be a fire fighting professional, and you cant, serves as one more reminder of whom are the educated on this forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
Oh and Joe, the vast majority of house fires start as grease fires in the kitchen. You don't use the kitchen sink water on them either. You should have a rated fire extinguisher in the kitchen and by the front door. The front door one is because as you are rushing out of the home in panick and realize it's just a little grease fire, the extinguisher is right there beside you.

The name is 'joether', not 'joe'. Just like your not Mr. H, your HunterCA. I give you respect towards your name, I expect the same in return!

Actually the top ten 'Causes of Fires at Home' are:

1. Cooking Equipment
2. Heating Equipment
3. Smoking
4. Electrical Equipment
5. Candles
6. Children Playing with Fire
7. Inadequate Wiring
8. Flammable Liquids
9. Christmas Trees/Decorations
10. Barbecues

SOURCE

Most homes fail a safety inspection. The fire extinguisher is not in a handy place, or the operator is not proficient in its operation. That some forget that the little tank does not have much 'stuff' in it, and should evacuate quickly.

It has been observed in many situations (not just with home fires) that when panic grips a person's mindset, all ability to think rationally, logically, and wisely, go right out the door. Which is why most people panic around large fires. The professionals rarely due, because they have specific training in handling a crisis situation. I've been in my situations in which 'shit is hitting the fan' and calmly barked out orders because people around me, were either 'stuck like stone' or 'running around mindlessly'. But once they are given an order, they simply follow it without question. I should have been a military officer.....

quote:

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?

there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones..

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..

There are other components to the issue. Landlords who refuse to pay the bills or perform proper maintenance to keep the water and sewer systems in proper order, home owners whose septic tanks back up and cause raw sewage to run overland. Families building on the cheap who would otherwise choose to do without running water...

We have codes for a reason

Like many issues there are two sides, and the knee jerk reaction to hearing one side of the story isnt always the correct reaction

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?

It is "American" in Caps to be clear.

I don't. I think you don't really understand the Constitution in that it does not prevent a law from being inacted unless it violates that Constitution.

Now, the question seems to be "if Amercians are free then why can't they use rainwater in their house if they want to?"

The answer is Constitutionaly defined liberty does not mean you may do whatever you want wherever you want.

Take public nudity for example. If one could make the argument that anyone can hook their house up to rainwater barrels for drinking water in a town that has a code against that practice, likely for health reasons, then one could also make the argument they can walk around nude in that same town, just because they are "free".

On the other hand, you are free to leave the town and build a cabin or pitch a tent on some land you own and lay there nude, with your face to the heavens, open mouthed and waiting for your next drink of rain water, should it come in time to save you from dying of thirst as long as the neighbors cannot see you and are disturbed by it.

So you see, the difference is freedom exists but only if it does not restrict the freedom of another. The water barrels or whatever in that house you talk about could end up fermenting some mold or bacteria that could end up in the neighbors house via an inopportune leeward breeze so the town has an ordinance which restricts such things to protect the life and liberty of all citizens in that town.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones..

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..

quote:

ORIGINAL: peope

A question was raised about the constitutionality of it.
The constitution doesn't really limit the states in what laws they can create.
They create some right that a person may have but basically it is up to the states to decide the most silly laws and to delegate them as long as they do not violate the rights set in the constitution.

If I understand correctly the constitution gives this power to the state.
The state can basically come up with any laws it wants (except when it conflicts with the constitution).
The federal government is much more limitied in its consitutional power but has grown immensly since the New Deal and through what I consider is abuse of the intercommerce clause.

The right of the municipality comes either from the constitution of the state.
Through the laws and rules from that state constitution.

Places where you would be free from municipal rules would be in an unincorporated area.
However. I do not believe the is a state in which there is no county or alike alotted for any piece of land.

So you have the municipal level, the county level, the state level and the federal level of rules and laws to abide by.
There are american territories that are unincorporated and as such do not have any state laws.

Either way the federal level is allowed to tax you as a fundamental part of an assumed right as a sovereign.

I suppose you could make a claim to violation of property according to the federal constitution.
I doubt it would succeed. Considering the judgement in the AHCA that the penalty of not signing insurance was a tax.

I'm afraid the constitution give great freedom to the states to limit your freedom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones..

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..

There's nothing illegal about collecting rainwater. It's also not unreasonable for cities to require the utilities necessary for sanitation as said regulations protect the neighbors. Historically cities without decent sanitation have caused a lot of deaths, we know better at this point, there's no reason to let reality haters drag us through that whole shit show again.


P.S. Anybody living in a US city that decides to take their power off grid is a complete nut. Off grid solar systems cost 5-10 times what grid power does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If you live in an incorporated city you have those pesky things called "Building Codes" that are as easy to change as the path of a glacier. And, in most places, you run across little requirements such as water must be from a municipal supply monitored by the Health Department. Sewage outflow must be connected to a municipal treatment facility. And, a house is only considered fit for habitation if connected to the electric grid.

Now, get out in the county instead of a municipality you can do things like:
Split grey water and black water sewage treatment.
Put rainwater into a cistern and use it as a water supply (as long as you get the water Health Department tested)
Run your house on a battery bank connected to a generator and some solar panels to keep charged.

When in a city; they make you play by city rules. The only way to get around it is to apply for a "variance" and get it approved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?

there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones..

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..

There are other components to the issue. Landlords who refuse to pay the bills or perform proper maintenance to keep the water and sewer systems in proper order, home owners whose septic tanks back up and cause raw sewage to run overland. Families building on the cheap who would otherwise choose to do without running water...

We have codes for a reason

Like many issues there are two sides, and the knee jerk reaction to hearing one side of the story isnt always the correct reaction

However we are not talking about business property, which is regulated for tenant use, we are talking about 'private' property so the whole land lord thing is a red herring.

How does a family on the cheap in the privacy of their home damage 'you'?

Yes we do have codes and they are city (corporate) bylaws, so how does that come into play with 'private' property within the city limits?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?

there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones..

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..

There are other components to the issue. Landlords who refuse to pay the bills or perform proper maintenance to keep the water and sewer systems in proper order, home owners whose septic tanks back up and cause raw sewage to run overland. Families building on the cheap who would otherwise choose to do without running water...

We have codes for a reason

Like many issues there are two sides, and the knee jerk reaction to hearing one side of the story isnt always the correct reaction

whoa.. i thought you were against govt regulations and control! what hipocracy!..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Damn, joe

Hunter said most fires start in the kitchen, your source states that the number one cause of house fires is... ?

(You think youre proving him wrong, while youre only providing him with backup)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Sounds like solid and good government at work. Making sure an one individual household is hooked up the city water system. Even if not a drop is used, its there in the case of an emergency. Fires do start in people's homes all the time. Its sometimes a good idea to have....something...to help keep a fire back until the professionals show up.

There is no realistic constitutional question here. The town can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The State can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The federal government can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. All three of these entities are created 'Of the People, By the People, For the People". RealOne forgets very often that we do not live in a dictatorship, in which Realone, is the dictator. We live in a democratic republic. An that if people feel a law should be changed, can do so by informing the public and running a campaign in the political environment.

Well, I've never actually seen a fire truck hook up to the kitchen faucet in a house. They usually use a fire hydrant outside which already is hooked up and belongs to the city. So even though you're trying to sound reasonable, as usual, your analogy just doesn't understand the topic.

An where are those fire hydrants located? Outside the house of the person bitching about not wanting to have 'on grid' water system. In the unlikely event that the fire fighters are not able to get the fire hydrant operational, they do get creative on dealing with the problem until a better option presents itself.

That things do not go perfectly on every fire fighting event should not be considered 'unheard of'. Usually things go wrong here and there. For one reason or another. Yes, even professionals can fuck up from time to time. Equipment could have break downs. That I can recognize this without having to be a fire fighting professional, and you cant, serves as one more reminder of whom are the educated on this forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA
Oh and Joe, the vast majority of house fires start as grease fires in the kitchen. You don't use the kitchen sink water on them either. You should have a rated fire extinguisher in the kitchen and by the front door. The front door one is because as you are rushing out of the home in panick and realize it's just a little grease fire, the extinguisher is right there beside you.

The name is 'joether', not 'joe'. Just like your not Mr. H, your HunterCA. I give you respect towards your name, I expect the same in return!

Actually the top ten 'Causes of Fires at Home' are:

1. Cooking Equipment
2. Heating Equipment
3. Smoking
4. Electrical Equipment
5. Candles
6. Children Playing with Fire
7. Inadequate Wiring
8. Flammable Liquids
9. Christmas Trees/Decorations
10. Barbecues

SOURCE

Most homes fail a safety inspection. The fire extinguisher is not in a handy place, or the operator is not proficient in its operation. That some forget that the little tank does not have much 'stuff' in it, and should evacuate quickly.

It has been observed in many situations (not just with home fires) that when panic grips a person's mindset, all ability to think rationally, logically, and wisely, go right out the door. Which is why most people panic around large fires. The professionals rarely due, because they have specific training in handling a crisis situation. I've been in my situations in which 'shit is hitting the fan' and calmly barked out orders because people around me, were either 'stuck like stone' or 'running around mindlessly'. But once they are given an order, they simply follow it without question. I should have been a military officer.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
off grid systems are far superior to on grid and most importantly removes private parties from the requirement to be regulated as a result of using a publicly regulated utility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
off grid systems are far superior to on grid and most importantly removes private parties from the requirement to be regulated as a result of using a publicly regulated utility.

I design off grid systems and that's pure bullshit. The only reasons to be off the power grid are:

1. Being too remote to reasonably access the grid.

2. Insufficiently medicated paranoia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If you live in an incorporated city you have those pesky things called "Building Codes" that are as easy to change as the path of a glacier. And, in most places, you run across little requirements such as water must be from a municipal supply monitored by the Health Department. Sewage outflow must be connected to a municipal treatment facility. And, a house is only considered fit for habitation if connected to the electric grid.

Now, get out in the county instead of a municipality you can do things like:
Split grey water and black water sewage treatment.
Put rainwater into a cistern and use it as a water supply (as long as you get the water Health Department tested)
Run your house on a battery bank connected to a generator and some solar panels to keep charged.

When in a city; they make you play by city rules. The only way to get around it is to apply for a "variance" and get it approved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I design off grid systems and that's pure bullshit. The only reasons to be off the power grid are:

1. Being too remote to reasonably access the grid.

2. Insufficiently medicated paranoia.