Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 9:07:54 AM)

Living off the grid is illegal in Cape Coral, Florida, according to a court ruling Thursday.

Special Magistrate Harold S. Eskin ruled that the city’s codes allow Robin Speronis to live without utility power but she is still required to hook her home to the city’s water system. Her alternative source of power must be approved by the city, Eskin said.

As previously reported in Off The Grid News, Speronis has been fighting the city of Cape Coral since November when a code enforcement officer tried to evict her from her home for living without utilities. The city contends that Speronis violated the International Property Maintenance Code by relying on rain water instead of the city water system and solar panels instead of the electric grid.

Part of the conflict: She must hook up to the water system, although officials acknowledge she does not have to use it.

snip

(Editor’s note: Hear our earlier interview with Robin Speronis here.)


The International Property Maintenance Code is used in communities throughout the United States and Canada. The code states that properties are unsafe to live in if they do not have electricity and running water. Speronis has electricity and water. She gets running water by collecting rainwater and electricity from solar panels.
http://www.offthegridnews.com/current-events/court-rules-off-the-grid-living-is-illegal/


Hence the government simply ASSUMES authority to tell you how to live in YOUR house under the guise of protecting YOU. For YOUR own safety! (By force if you do not comply!)

Once an ordinance is created for any screwed up whim, the burden then falls upon you to prove to some court, starting with municipal (sucking your money), then county (sucking your money), then appeals (sucking your money), then finally state supreme court (sucking your money), to justify that they should not infringe on your right.

Meantime due to your failure to meet their guidelines, they insure your continued safety by kicking your asses OUT of your house, to the curb with no running water, no electricity, in the elements which it goes without saying DOES meet their guidelines for living standards.

This is level of infringement is on the books nationwide. Not only for this particular instance but across the board in virtually every aspect of life that can be (mob) regulated.

Its mob security. Laws like this are on the books for years, 'setting precedence' for other violations against your rights, where they only surface when someone is forced to litigate because you cant sue until there is some kind of injury because the court will simply throw it out as frivolous.

Meantime all these BS infringements force people to (spend their hard earned cash and pay the mob legal system) to fight for anything and everything that is not 'mob' approved extorting their retirement money in court battles that should never arise in the first place if we had a constitution.

Worse if this woman wins the case all she gets out of the deal is the ability to stay in her house, with no compensation for the mental anguish and costs she had to bear.

Life, liberty, RICO, extortion!

Why is this a nationwide epidemic in every facet of life?

So, tell me, where is that constitution again?

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?









tj444 -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 9:38:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?


there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones.. [8|]

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..




Lucylastic -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 9:39:20 AM)

How many people living in detroit went without running water??




Sanity -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 9:59:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?


there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones.. [8|]

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..


There are other components to the issue. Landlords who refuse to pay the bills or perform proper maintenance to keep the water and sewer systems in proper order, home owners whose septic tanks back up and cause raw sewage to run overland. Families building on the cheap who would otherwise choose to do without running water...

We have codes for a reason

Like many issues there are two sides, and the knee jerk reaction to hearing one side of the story isnt always the correct reaction




tj444 -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:00:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

How many people living in detroit went without running water??


they were still connected (all those pipes and stuff), just the flow of the water itself was shut off.. like the judge said, she had to be connected but that didnt mean she had to use it.. in the case of those in detroit, they werent allowed to use it.. so i would say detroit fits right in with the judge's ruling.. [8|]




tweakabelle -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:03:56 AM)

Sanity it almost sounds as though you approve of the water supply being cut off - presumably to people too poor to pay the bill. Please tell me you don't .......




tj444 -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:09:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?


there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones.. [8|]

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..


There are other components to the issue. Landlords who refuse to pay the bills or perform proper maintenance to keep the water and sewer systems in proper order, home owners whose septic tanks back up and cause raw sewage to run overland. Families building on the cheap who would otherwise choose to do without running water...

We have codes for a reason

Like many issues there are two sides, and the knee jerk reaction to hearing one side of the story isnt always the correct reaction

whoa.. i thought you were against govt regulations and control! what hipocracy!.. [&:]




Lucylastic -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:10:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

How many people living in detroit went without running water??


they were still connected (all those pipes and stuff), just the flow of the water itself was shut off.. like the judge said, she had to be connected but that didnt mean she had to use it.. in the case of those in detroit, they werent allowed to use it.. so i would say detroit fits right in with the judge's ruling.. [8|]

of course![8|]




Sanity -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:16:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Sanity it almost sounds as though you approve of the water supply being cut off - presumably to people too poor to pay the bill. Please tell me you don't .......


Youre even more insane than usual this morning. I am not even going to ask how you got that from my post...




Sanity -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:18:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

whoa.. i thought you were against govt regulations and control! what hipocracy!.. [&:]


What a straw man fallacy... [sm=dontfeedtrolls.gif]




tj444 -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:23:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

whoa.. i thought you were against govt regulations and control! what hipocracy!.. [&:]


What a straw man fallacy... [sm=dontfeedtrolls.gif]

thats the same crap you try on me (as you did in the money in elections thread) and anyone else you view as a "liberal" or a D..




Sanity -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:24:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

thats the same crap you try on me (as you did in the money in elections thread) and anyone else you view as a "liberal" or a D..


Now you are making shit up




JVoV -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 10:48:42 AM)

The city has the authority to set housing standards within its city limits. Anyone that doesn't like it can move outside of city limits.




tj444 -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 11:02:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

The city has the authority to set housing standards within its city limits. Anyone that doesn't like it can move outside of city limits.

not necessarily.. even people in the desert with no one for miles arent safe.. in some cases they have ended up with criminal convictions and been forced off their property and become homeless..

http://www.laweekly.com/news/la-countys-private-property-war-2171198




Sanity -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 11:13:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

The city has the authority to set housing standards within its city limits. Anyone that doesn't like it can move outside of city limits.

not necessarily.. even people in the desert with no one for miles arent safe.. in some cases they have ended up with criminal convictions and been forced off their property and become homeless..

http://www.laweekly.com/news/la-countys-private-property-war-2171198


Wow, real environazis. In California...

Who would have thunk it possible




HunterCA -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 12:19:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Anyone see a little glitch in the american 'freedom' system?


there are many HUGE glitches in the american freedom system..

why is it illegal for her when there are many others living outside of cities that live off the grid? imo, its about money and control.. the city wants all homes connected so they have to pay "their yearly share" of the maintenance and expansion costs.. and my gawd.. if one person can get away with this "illegal" behaviour, then how many others will follow? that would be the start of anarchy! govt wants its citizens to be obedient lobotomized drones.. [8|]

I am still gobsmacked that there are areas in the US where collecting rainwater is illegal..



A) city owns the water rights. They are dedicated when the land is subdivided.
B) health and safety issues. When the person comes down with cryptosporidium or some other thing the city is going to be sued.
C) off grid people. (As I live off grid completely except for having propane trucked in) still have wells and septic systems permitted by and inspected by the County.
D) it was a cross contaminated water source that Typhoid Mary spread. So personally being contaminated on your own property doesn't insulate you from passing it along to your neighbors.
E) if she was not using the sewer system then she was eliminating waste on her property which compounds all of the above plus more. If she was using the sewer system then she wasn't paying her fair share if she wasn't using the complete system including water and sewer. It's why the officials didn't care if she used the water or not as long as she hooked up. Then she pays her fair share. Note, that Elizabeth Warren is big now on who should pay their fair share of infrastructure.
F) the international code mentioned is 98% the American plumping Code in metric with a few things for other countries. Most places that adopt it do so because it's cheaper to do so then develop your own. It's not a conspiracy.
G) state regulations, through EPA regulations harshly deal with water and waste water. Generally, cities and counties have little choice. Yet, the questions comes up of why cant city folk be off the grid like country folk. I have 80 acres of land. I have a septic tank and a leach field. Before I could build those, I had to prove I could shut down the leach field and make another as the life expectancy is only about 20 years for a leach field. Every house generates, on average, about 250 gallons of liquid waste per day. If you live on a 50'x100' lot you're not going to be able to dispose of your waste.
H) you all might have seen in the news recently how the EPA now thinks they own the little wet spots that exist after a rain near creeks. They call them waters of the U.S. well, you better bet your sweet bippie that the EPA belives it owns that woman's rain runoff. It's all calculated in Permits issued by either the Fed or State government where you live...in the US. If everyone stored rain runoff, all ofbthe little fishies wouldn't have anything to drink and play in. Sure one person isn't going to affect it, but then the government is put in the position of being asked if she can why can't i. Ain't gonna happen.

Okay, I can go on another couple,of pages of this. But you all probably get the point.

Yes it is money predicated on everyone pays a fair shair. But, it's also health and safety.





peope -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 12:25:14 PM)

A question was raised about the constitutionality of it.
The constitution doesn't really limit the states in what laws they can create.
They create some right that a person may have but basically it is up to the states to decide the most silly laws and to delegate them as long as they do not violate the rights set in the constitution.

If I understand correctly the constitution gives this power to the state.
The state can basically come up with any laws it wants (except when it conflicts with the constitution).
The federal government is much more limitied in its consitutional power but has grown immensly since the New Deal and through what I consider is abuse of the intercommerce clause.

The right of the municipality comes either from the constitution of the state.
Through the laws and rules from that state constitution.

Places where you would be free from municipal rules would be in an unincorporated area.
However. I do not believe the is a state in which there is no county or alike alotted for any piece of land.

So you have the municipal level, the county level, the state level and the federal level of rules and laws to abide by.
There are american territories that are unincorporated and as such do not have any state laws.

Either way the federal level is allowed to tax you as a fundamental part of an assumed right as a sovereign.

I suppose you could make a claim to violation of property according to the federal constitution.
I doubt it would succeed. Considering the judgement in the AHCA that the penalty of not signing insurance was a tax.

I'm afraid the constitution give great freedom to the states to limit your freedom.




HunterCA -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 12:42:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

The city has the authority to set housing standards within its city limits. Anyone that doesn't like it can move outside of city limits.

not necessarily.. even people in the desert with no one for miles arent safe.. in some cases they have ended up with criminal convictions and been forced off their property and become homeless..

http://www.laweekly.com/news/la-countys-private-property-war-2171198



It's the People's Republic of California. What do you expect from left wing big government.

You only have to bring it up to current code when you want to build a major extension on the building or you never got a permit in the first place. Around here, I don't know a builder who would work without a building permit tacked on a post outside.

It's all health and safety. For instance, although I'm an engineer, im not a structural engineer. When my house, I built, went in for a building permit check they found structural stuff I needed to add that I realized was correct when I looked into it. BTW, even in the People's Republic of California, it's legal for a home owner to design their own home without professional help. And that pretty much why the City and County check the designs and issue permits.

For instance, just because these people went out in the middle of no where and built a house on their own, the county is still responsible for fire, police and ambulance. It's tough to put out a fire when there is no reliable water supply, it's also tough for a fire truck to drive, full of water, on a mile long dirt road not meant to take the weight of a loaded fire truck. I'll lay you odds these people would expect an ambulance to show up if they called, but, how is an ambulance going to find them if they're not in any system?

In agricultural areas, such as antelope valley. The top layer of ground water is always contaminated with farming tailgater. Pesticides, fertilizer, cow shit, pig shit. So you dig a well down until you find water and never talk to the county and you get sick. Who are you going to sue because they were supposed to tell you that you were being stupid?




joether -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 12:44:45 PM)

Sounds like solid and good government at work. Making sure an one individual household is hooked up the city water system. Even if not a drop is used, its there in the case of an emergency. Fires do start in people's homes all the time. Its sometimes a good idea to have....something...to help keep a fire back until the professionals show up.

There is no realistic constitutional question here. The town can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The State can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The federal government can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. All three of these entities are created 'Of the People, By the People, For the People". RealOne forgets very often that we do not live in a dictatorship, in which Realone, is the dictator. We live in a democratic republic. An that if people feel a law should be changed, can do so by informing the public and running a campaign in the political environment.





HunterCA -> RE: Off-Grid Living Is Illegal! So hows that Constitution Working for ya? (6/5/2015 12:48:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Sounds like solid and good government at work. Making sure an one individual household is hooked up the city water system. Even if not a drop is used, its there in the case of an emergency. Fires do start in people's homes all the time. Its sometimes a good idea to have....something...to help keep a fire back until the professionals show up.

There is no realistic constitutional question here. The town can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The State can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. The federal government can create laws with regards to a water system and how it is used. All three of these entities are created 'Of the People, By the People, For the People". RealOne forgets very often that we do not live in a dictatorship, in which Realone, is the dictator. We live in a democratic republic. An that if people feel a law should be changed, can do so by informing the public and running a campaign in the political environment.





Well, I've never actually seen a fire truck hook up to the kitchen faucet in a house. They usually use a fire hydrant outside which already is hooked up and belongs to the city. So even though you're trying to sound reasonable, as usual, your analogy just doesn't understand the topic.

Oh and Joe, the vast majority of house fires start as grease fires in the kitchen. You don't use the kitchen sink water on them either. You should have a rated fire extinguisher in the kitchen and by the front door. The front door one is because as you are rushing out of the home in panick and realize it's just a little grease fire, the extinguisher is right there beside you.




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