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South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag


Yes, the Confederate Flag is an embarrassment.
  42% (11)
Yes, after this shooting there was not choice about it.
  7% (2)
Yes, but for different reasons.
  11% (3)
No, the Flag is not racist in any way.
  19% (5)
No, the Flag deserves to stay.
  19% (5)


Total Votes : 26
(last vote on : 6/25/2015 2:14:05 PM)
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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 9:33:25 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

Remember that all of those confederate heroes who were southern generals were honorable men who went to West Point with, and we're class mates of, the northern generals and made the hardest decission ofbtheir lives to leave and serve their state. It was tragic, but they were no less mento honor.

People opposed to America's military adventurism in foreign countries burn the American flag, not the flags or emblems of the units involved. They didn't choose to be there. It was the American government that sent them. If somebody wants to burn the Confederate flag, fine. The saltire banner was only ever flown to identify Confederate naval and military units. For the Klan to have adopted it is an unmitigated outrage, and perhaps the most offensive case of stolen valor in American history.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/22/2015 9:53:54 PM >

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 9:38:02 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 9:39:23 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3664
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		George Wallace was a pilot in WWII. Yet, he still stood on the wrong side of history as governor of Alabama. I don't think schools should be named after him either.

I know you're of the opinion that the Civil War was about States' Rights, but the South didn't care about the rights of other States, where slavery was illegal.

Since our Constitution begins with "We the people", it is heavily implied that Human Rights must always trump States Rights.

A bit of reading for you about why the South seceded, in their own words. http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/secession.html#South%20Carolina

< Message edited by JVoV -- 6/22/2015 9:44:31 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 9:43:22 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3664
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


People opposed to America's military adventurism in foreign countries burn the American flag, not the flags or emblems of the units involved. They didn't choose to be there. It was the American government that sent them. If somebody wants to burn the Confederate flag, fine. But good luck finding one, because there is no longer a Confederacy to fly it. The saltire banner identified Confederate naval and military units. For the Klan to have adopted it is an unmitigated outrage, and perhaps the most offensive case of stolen valor in American history.

K.




Since the original Klan was created by former Confederate soldiers, it isn't exactly stolen valor.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 9:51:09 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Since the original Klan was created by former Confederate soldiers, it isn't exactly stolen valor.

Yeah, six sore-losers.

K.

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:24:46 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

I know you're of the opinion that the Civil War was about States' Rights, but the South didn't care about the rights of other States, where slavery was illegal.

Since our Constitution begins with "We the people", it is heavily implied that Human Rights must always trump States Rights.


The South did not dictate to the North that they must have slaves so I think this means the South respected states rights.

"We the people" did not include slaves when written so this does not heavily imply anything of the sort except Citizen Rights which included southern Citizens who had the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 6/22/2015 10:25:16 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:29:15 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline 		...and their economy and therefore their happiness required owning slaves. It was their right to do so. Just because half the country decided to emancipate these slaves did not remove the right of these southern states to run their own economies. Wait, I see a pattern here...

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:35:03 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59




That seems too clean a flag. I suspect it was not so white when used. It may have had cordite, gunpowder and bloodstains of many southern and even northern loving mother's sons who I trust will visit you tonight in your somewhat disturbing dreams.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:39:21 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		 
There`s a story from WWII where after invading and defeating the Okinawans (100,000 islanders, 1/3 of the population killed),some southern Marines hung a confederate flag on Shuri Castle.

I don`t know the name but the commander ordered it taken down because it was offensive to non white Marines. 

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:46:07 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

 
There`s a story from WWII where after invading and defeating the Okinawans (100,000 islanders, 1/3 of the population killed),some southern Marines hung a confederate flag on Shuri Castle.

I don`t know the name but the commander ordered it taken down because it was offensive to non white Marines. 


So, we have southern Marines now? Were they offended by having it taken down or did they laugh, put the flag up in their tent and host a beer to that battle flag they carried all the way across the Pacific? Yep I guess there are Southern Marines.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:47:38 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59




That seems too clean a flag. I suspect it was not so white when used. It may have had cordite, gunpowder and bloodstains of many southern and even northern loving mother's sons who I trust will visit you tonight in your somewhat disturbing dreams.


The south`s inability to leave the past behind is a contributing factor as to why they are the poorest, l east educated, most unhealthy part of the nation with the most STDs, out of wed lock births, the most domestic violence and the highest divorce and murder rate.


Come join the 21st century and enjoy the prosperity and promise that your abstinence is keeping you from.


One of my family members served in the Union Army as cavalry commander. He saw action and lost men in battle. We have his battle sword with his name and commission engraved on it. Probably worth a hundred grand.

My family is very proud of him and our history and I sleep fine.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/22/2015 11:01:41 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:51:53 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

 
There`s a story from WWII where after invading and defeating the Okinawans (100,000 islanders, 1/3 of the population killed),some southern Marines hung a confederate flag on Shuri Castle.

I don`t know the name but the commander ordered it taken down because it was offensive to non white Marines. 


I suppose you feel that because some might be offended by the Confederate Battle Flag that it somehow is bad because some choose to be offended. The herd can be offended all they wish but this does not make the flag offensive. The herd does not define anything except those things that govern the herd.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 10:55:02 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59




That seems too clean a flag. I suspect it was not so white when used. It may have had cordite, gunpowder and bloodstains of many southern and even northern loving mother's sons who I trust will visit you tonight in your somewhat disturbing dreams.


The south`s inability to leave the past behind is a contributing factor as to why they are the poorest, l east educated, most unhealthy part of the nation with the most STDs, out of wed lock births, the most domestic violence and the highest divorce and murder rate.






Perhaps it instead has more to do with being destroyed by the war for their rights by fellow human beings who visited their beliefs on them rather than some meaningless and unsubstantiated catch phrase or talking point.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 11:01:35 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline 		Shall we talk about how the North did not lend money to the South to rebuild it's economy but instead stole what the South had via the Carpetbaggers? Then let's talk about how and why the South was poor for decades and lived in this situation and still does, treated with disdain by others, with hate and clear prejudice against Southern Citizens, a prejudice well represented by your posts.

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"We master Our world."

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 11:04:36 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline 		Prejudice and hate are terrible things but these things are not represented by the Confederate Battle Flag but by how the South was treated after being destroyed by Sherman's March to the Sea and how she even now struggles to regain her right to life, liberty and happiness including health, stable families even though they are more stable in Nashville than in the Bronx.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 11:19:37 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		You seem either unable or unwillilng to grasp the fact that many Americans esp Americans of colour don't see a "symbol of freedom" when they see the Confederate flag.

They see a symbol of the slave trade, and people who committed treason, plunging your country into a bitter civil war to save that despicable trade.

While there were many honourable people who fought under that symbol, slavery is not an honourable institution - indeed slavery is about as far removed from an honourable institution as you can get. Reminders of slavery, glorifying the symbol of slavery is an in-your-face ceaseless insult to the grandchildren of those slaves.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/22/2015 11:28:02 PM >

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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 11:28:31 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You seem unable to grasp that many Americans esp Americans of colour don't see a "symbol of freedom" when they see the Confederate flag.

That may be, but I find it difficult to be sanguine about an argument that perceptions outweigh reality. In my opinion, we've had quite enough of that lately.

K.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 11:48:31 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You seem unable to grasp that many Americans esp Americans of colour don't see a "symbol of freedom" when they see the Confederate flag.

That may be, but I find it difficult to be sanguine about an argument that perceptions outweigh reality. In my opinion, we've had quite enough of that lately.

K.



Whatever merit your point possesses must surely apply equally to both sides of this particular issue. So I am unsure how it adds to the discussion.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/22/2015 11:57:35 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Whatever merit your point possesses must surely apply equally to both sides of this particular issue. So I am unsure how it adds to the discussion.

I see, so anyone stating the other side isn't adding to the discussion. Yeah, I'll check my privilege.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 12:48:49 AM   
JVoV


Posts: 3664
Joined: 3/9/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Shall we talk about how the North did not lend money to the South to rebuild it's economy but instead stole what the South had via the Carpetbaggers? Then let's talk about how and why the South was poor for decades and lived in this situation and still does, treated with disdain by others, with hate and clear prejudice against Southern Citizens, a prejudice well represented by your posts.

Emancipation was punishment for the South, with nobody in power caring what would happen because of it.

The economy was devastated. The emancipated slaves were put out into a world they weren't prepared for, and many died from starvation, illness, or exposure. Some estimates are as high as 1/4th the total number of emancipated slaves died within two years of freedom.

They often found shelter at 'contraband camps', with limited food supplies and horrible sanitary conditions. Disease was rampant.

Many returned to the plantations as sharecroppers. Some went West, to start new lives. But they persevered, while Northern religious leaders expected them to die out, or go back to Africa.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 40
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