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[Poll]

South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag


Yes, the Confederate Flag is an embarrassment.
  42% (11)
Yes, after this shooting there was not choice about it.
  7% (2)
Yes, but for different reasons.
  11% (3)
No, the Flag is not racist in any way.
  19% (5)
No, the Flag deserves to stay.
  19% (5)


Total Votes : 26


(last vote on : 6/25/2015 2:14:05 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 1:21:05 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Prejudice and hate are terrible things but these things are not represented by the Confederate Battle Flag but by how the South was treated after being destroyed by Sherman's March to the Sea and how she even now struggles to regain her right to life, liberty and happiness including health, stable families even though they are more stable in Nashville than in the Bronx.


shit meanwhile we got stability after a war of unification, two world wars and a civil war on our homeland and you in all this time could not?

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 3:25:19 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You seem unable to grasp that many Americans esp Americans of colour don't see a "symbol of freedom" when they see the Confederate flag.

That may be, but I find it difficult to be sanguine about an argument that perceptions outweigh reality. In my opinion, we've had quite enough of that lately.


Whatever merit your point possesses must surely apply equally to both sides of this particular issue. So I am unsure how it adds to the discussion.

I see, so anyone stating the other side isn't adding to the discussion. Yeah, I'll check my privilege.
.
Not at all. I have no idea where you got that from. My point was that both perspectives on the Confederate flag - that it is a symbol of OTOH "slavery" and OTOH "freedom" are both interpretations. Neither has the status of "reality". This is not a case of 'perception" versus "reality" as you chose to frame it.

The only reality of the Confederate flag possesses is that it is a bit of coloured material probably cotton, sewn together. Attaching any meaning to that bit of cotton is an act of interpretation.

This discussion revolves around the effects of different interpretations of that bit of coloured cotton. Neither side can legitimately or reasonably claim that its interpretation is the sole or only "reality", no matter how "real" that interpretation may feel to the various perception holders.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/23/2015 3:31:25 AM >


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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 7:52:41 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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This can't get any better. From the darling of the left no less:

http://chicksontheright.com/blog/item/29521-liberals-are-calling-the-confederate-flag-racist-but-look-who-s-used-it-before

Huh, looks like liberals love the Confederacy just as much as those super-raaaaaacist white Southern people (and we could certainly go into the history of the racism of Democrats and the left that they so conveeeeeeniently forget when things like Charleston happens).

You know, they blamed Marco Rubio for his wife's traffic tickets. Anyone gonna ask Hillary about things her hubby did as Governor of Arkansas? (Probably not.)












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(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 8:37:19 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You seem unable to grasp that many Americans esp Americans of colour don't see a "symbol of freedom" when they see the Confederate flag.

That may be, but I find it difficult to be sanguine about an argument that perceptions outweigh reality. In my opinion, we've had quite enough of that lately.


Whatever merit your point possesses must surely apply equally to both sides of this particular issue. So I am unsure how it adds to the discussion.

I see, so anyone stating the other side isn't adding to the discussion. Yeah, I'll check my privilege.
.
Not at all. I have no idea where you got that from. My point was that both perspectives on the Confederate flag - that it is a symbol of OTOH "slavery" and OTOH "freedom" are both interpretations. Neither has the status of "reality". This is not a case of 'perception" versus "reality" as you chose to frame it.

The only reality of the Confederate flag possesses is that it is a bit of coloured material probably cotton, sewn together. Attaching any meaning to that bit of cotton is an act of interpretation.

This discussion revolves around the effects of different interpretations of that bit of coloured cotton. Neither side can legitimately or reasonably claim that its interpretation is the sole or only "reality", no matter how "real" that interpretation may feel to the various perception holders.

Except what you're saying is pure bull shit that you are speaking just to speak. Why don't you look up what the flag represents? And you know what, your deconstruction of flag meaning is idiotic. Any meaning you may have to the universe is obviously skewed by what BS you've done to your thought process of hate. You don't sound smart here so quit trying. What an idiot.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 9:00:57 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

your deconstruction of flag meaning is idiotic.

It is not a deconstruction, deconstruction is a completely different analytical tool. I was using semiotic analysis. As you clearly don't understand what semiotics is, let me enlighten you. Semiotics is the study and analysis of signs and symbols. A flag is an excellent example of how meaning(s). is invested in a symbol - the core area of semiotics

Please take your childish trolling, hate and ignorance somewhere where I am not. Thanks. Have a nice day!

PS: How's your geography today dear? I so hope it is improving. You do understand we are talking about South Carolina and not South Dakota don't you?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/23/2015 9:20:03 AM >


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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 9:09:30 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

your deconstruction of flag meaning is idiotic.

It is not a deconstruction, deconstruction is a completely different analytical tool. I was using semiotic analysis. As you clearly don't understand what semiotics is, let me enlighten you. Semiotics is the study and analysis of signs and symbols.

Please take your hate and ignorance somewhere where I am not. Thanks. Have a nice day!

PS: How's your geography today? You do understand we are talking about South Carolina and not South Dakota don't you?

Im here, so if you don't want me to point out your hate then go elsewhere. You clearly didn't perform an analysis of the flag. Obviously since you don't understand what the flag symbolizes you didn't use semiotic analysis. You spouted nonsense (deconstruction), reordering meanings, to make yourself look smart and to argue your point. What you did was spew ignorance and it's shows.

I might add, my geography is fine. I specifically went into that thread to watch you and Cloudboy. My bet was rather than show crocodile tears you'd attack. You didn't let me down. I appreciate that. You were more pleased to jump on a mistake than to be sympathetic to all those killed. Each time you do that you show just how much you hate and how black your heart is. I enjoy making you show that to everyone.

< Message edited by HunterCA -- 6/23/2015 9:13:32 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 9:16:30 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 9:24:39 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



Oh cool. Speechless. Now I know how to do it best. While you're rolling in the mud, why don't you google what the battle flag represents and notice it has nothing to do with freedom. Then you'll feel better about your ignorance and your pompous statement to me.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 9:34:59 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
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Status: offline




I guess it does get better

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 6/23/2015 9:35:56 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 9:38:47 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin





I guess it does get better

My God! Is that the Confederate Stars and Bats on a campaign button for a liberal Democrat? As late as 2008?? Must'be been part of some vast right-wing conspiracy.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 9:59:00 AM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

your deconstruction of flag meaning is idiotic.

It is not a deconstruction, deconstruction is a completely different analytical tool. I was using semiotic analysis. As you clearly don't understand what semiotics is, let me enlighten you. Semiotics is the study and analysis of signs and symbols. A flag is an excellent example of how meaning(s). is invested in a symbol - the core area of semiotics

Please take your childish trolling, hate and ignorance somewhere where I am not. Thanks. Have a nice day!

PS: How's your geography today dear? I so hope it is improving. You do understand we are talking about South Carolina and not South Dakota don't you?

And, BTW, if you had been using semiotic analysis you'd have discussed the symbols on the flag. You can't help yourself being a smarty pants. But, you didn't do that. What you did is what I said and then after I said it you scurried around looking for anything that would make you look smart and that you could use to denigrate me. It's what you do. You were in no way doing any symbol analysis. This entire post is BS trying to cover your little rear.

For a clue, look at the campaign button above this post. See where it says Heritage not Hate. It doesn't say Freedom not Hate does it. So, you see, your original post was just as full of shit as this one.

Oh, don't worry. I'm not going to be infantile and use a ROTFL emoticon.

< Message edited by HunterCA -- 6/23/2015 10:01:53 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 10:16:30 AM   
tweakabelle


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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 10:37:56 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


Oh, don't worry. I'm not going to be infantile and use a ROTFL emoticon.


I guess that's the best she's got.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 11:53:22 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
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Status: offline
It appears that the flag has a history of controversy going back to its first use in Sth Carolina. Its meaning has long been contested:

" The "Stars and Bars" flag, currently the subject of controversy, was actually the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.

After the war ended, the symbol became a source of Southern pride and heritage, as well as a remembrance of Confederate soldiers who died in battle. But as racism and segregation gripped the nation in the century following, it became a divisive and violent emblem of the Ku Klux Klan and white supremacist groups. It was also the symbol of the States' Rights Democratic Party, or "Dixiecrats," that formed in 1948 to oppose civil-rights platforms of the Democratic Party. Then-South Carolina Gov. Strom Thurmond was the splinter group's nominee for president that same year; he won 39 electoral votes.

Now, the flag is a frequent emblem of modern white supremacist groups. The alleged Charleston shooter, Dylann Storm Roof, was photographed holding the Confederate flag in images on his website. Not all southerners, who believe the flag should be flown, however, see it as a racist symbol. They see it, instead, as a symbol of southern pride or as a way to remember ancestors who fought in the Civil War.

The flag was first flown over the state Capitol dome by Democratic Gov. Fritz Hollings in 1962 to mark the centennial of the start of the Civil War, but many saw it as a reaction to the civil-rights movement and school desegregation. For nearly four decades, it continued to be a controversial issue in the Palmetto State. A 1994 nonbinding referendum placed on the GOP primary ballot found that three-in-four voters said the flag should keep flying. That same year, black ministers and the NAACP threatened a boycott of the state if the flag didn't come down, and business leaders sued to remove the flag.

But in 2000, a compromise was reached — the battle flag would be removed from atop the dome and a smaller, square version would be placed at a less-prominent place on the Statehouse grounds — on a 20-foot pole next to the 30-foot Confederate monument. But that didn't end the controversy, and many years of protests, criticism and boycotts followed
."
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/22/416548613/the-complicated-political-history-of-the-confederate-flag


Here is more evidence from Time Magazine to support the view that the meaning of the flag has long been controversial:

"South Carolina has not always flown the flag. The state’s first modern hoisting of the standard came in 1961, as part of official commemorations of the centennial anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War. As K. Michael Prince notes in his book about the relationship between the state and the flag, Rally ’round the Flag, Boys!, the celebrations kicked off in Charleston, where the fighting had begun 100 years earlier. The flag’s place at the Capitol was officially confirmed by the state legislature the following year.

Still many historians say the appearance of the flag likely had a more nefarious purpose: to symbolize Southern defiance in the face of a burgeoning Civil Rights Movement. The move was, TIME later noted, “a states’-rights rebuff to desegregation.”

“The Confederate flag symbolizes more than the civil war and the slavery era,” wrote James Forman Jr. a professor at Yale Law School, in a law journal article about the flag’s history at state capitols. “The flag has been adopted knowingly and consciously by government officials seeking to assert their commitment to black subordination.”

The decision in South Carolina didn’t attract much attention at the time. Civil-rights activists were more concerned with securing voting rights and ending legal segregation than a flag, and the state legislature relied on a concurrent resolution, which is typically reserved for uncontroversial measures, to order the flag placed atop the statehouse. Because concurrent resolutions don’t require much debate, there’s little record of what arguments were used in favor of flying the flag.

But there was also little question about the segregationist views of some South Carolina political leaders at the time. South Carolina Senator Strom Thurmond famously launched a 24-hour filibuster of the Civil Rights Act in 1957. And the state’s governor, Donald Stuart Russell, fought to keep African Americans out of state universities."

http://time.com/3930464/south-carolina-confederate-flag-1962/

Re-posted from the 'gun control' thread.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/23/2015 11:55:10 AM >


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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 12:01:26 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Not at all. I have no idea where you got that from. My point was that both perspectives on the Confederate flag - that it is a symbol of OTOH "slavery" and OTOH "freedom" are both interpretations. Neither has the status of "reality". This is not a case of 'perception" versus "reality" as you chose to frame it.

The only reality of the Confederate flag possesses is that it is a bit of coloured material probably cotton, sewn together. Attaching any meaning to that bit of cotton is an act of interpretation.

This discussion revolves around the effects of different interpretations of that bit of coloured cotton. Neither side can legitimately or reasonably claim that its interpretation is the sole or only "reality", no matter how "real" that interpretation may feel to the various perception holders.

Well let's sort out where we agree and disagree. Yes, every flag is just a piece of colored material, if you want to take as your starting point such a severely reductive perspective, in which case the only thing that matters is whether or not it clashes with your décor. And yes, people can project onto a flag just about any meaning they want; or more to the point, any meaning that suits their purpose and furthers their agenda.

Taking an example at random, the crosses of St. George, St. Andrew, and St. Patrick on the Australian flag could, by someone so inclined, and by your argument perfectly legitimately, be perceived as a warning that non-Christians will not find a warm welcome there; and the Southern Cross on the flag as symbolic of the colossal ego of Australians, who fancy themselves to be aligned with the Heavens looking down upon all the other peoples of the Earth.

Is there, as you argue, no reality here? Is someone who exclaims, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!" really just expressing a different and equally legitimate interpretation? This is where we differ. I don't think so. Yes, people will perceive whatever they want to perceive. But sometimes the appropriate response is, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!"

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/23/2015 12:54:26 PM >

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RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 12:16:02 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

From your first quote:

"After the war ended, the symbol became a source of Southern pride and heritage, as well as a remembrance of Confederate soldiers who died in battle. But as racism and segregation gripped the nation in the century following, it became a divisive and violent emblem of the Ku Klux Klan and white supremacist groups.

Well no, it didn't "become" that. They misused it as that, and I would prefer they not win this one.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 4:48:21 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

And, BTW, if you had been using semiotic analysis you'd have discussed the symbols on the flag. You can't help yourself being a smarty pants. But, you didn't do that. What you did is what I said and then after I said it you scurried around looking for anything that would make you look smart and that you could use to denigrate me. It's what you do. You were in no way doing any symbol analysis. This entire post is BS trying to cover your little rear.

For a clue, look at the campaign button above this post. See where it says Heritage not Hate. It doesn't say Freedom not Hate does it. So, you see, your original post was just as full of shit as this one.

Oh, don't worry. I'm not going to be infantile and use a ROTFL emoticon.


You didn't point out in that post that Tweakabelle is full of hate, Hunter. A post to Tweakabelle in which you don't mention that she's full of hate is a *wasted* post. Just saying.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 4:50:00 PM   
HunterCA


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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420142/america-one-nation-indivisible



quote:

everyone is weighing in on the horrific murders in Charleston and blaming the mindset of the mass murderer on wider social pathologies. After the airing of the racist crackpot ideas of the unhinged Dylann Roof, calls have gone out to ban the public flying of the battle flag of the Old Confederacy, which has also been incorporated in various forms in four state flags. Perhaps we should step back and eschew symbolism that separates us by race rather than unites us as fellow citizens.




quote:

ut perhaps we should not stop there, given increasing ethnic tensions and widening racial fault lines. There are plenty of other overt racialist symbols that separate Americans. One is the prominent use of La Raza, “The Race” — seen most prominently in the National Council of La Raza, an ethnic lobbying organization that has been and is currently a recipient of federal funds. The National Council of La Raza should be free to use any title it wishes, but it should not expect the federal government to subsidize its separatist.




quote:

ne wonders why in 2015 there is still nomenclature such as “the Congressional Black Caucus,” over half a century after the civil-rights movement sought to promote integration and the idea that Americans should be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.. The Caucus ostensibly seeks to ensure the end of exclusion by race from full participation in American society by creating a lobbying group focused entirely on one particular race. The postmodern rationale is either that groups that have suffered past disfranchisement and discrimination should not be subject to current anti-discriminatory protocols, or that they should at least enjoy a compensatory period of exclusion from color-blind values to offset centuries of oppression.




quote:

The premise seems to be that African-American House members seek to promote a common “black” agenda that transcends their local, county, or state interests. Thus the group’s membership is entirely race-based. The Caucus is not open to those members of the House of Representatives who are not African-American, but who might share the Caucus’s racial or political agenda — as the Jewish-American Representative Steven Cohen learned when he was elected to Congress in 2006. The Lebanese-American Ralph Nader was once attacked at a Caucus meeting in clearly racial terms on the understanding that the group was exempt from charges of racism.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 4:55:38 PM   
HunterCA


Posts: 2343
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

And, BTW, if you had been using semiotic analysis you'd have discussed the symbols on the flag. You can't help yourself being a smarty pants. But, you didn't do that. What you did is what I said and then after I said it you scurried around looking for anything that would make you look smart and that you could use to denigrate me. It's what you do. You were in no way doing any symbol analysis. This entire post is BS trying to cover your little rear.

For a clue, look at the campaign button above this post. See where it says Heritage not Hate. It doesn't say Freedom not Hate does it. So, you see, your original post was just as full of shit as this one.

Oh, don't worry. I'm not going to be infantile and use a ROTFL emoticon.


You didn't point out in that post that Tweakabelle is full of hate, Hunter. A post to Tweakabelle in which you don't mention that she's full of hate is a *wasted* post. Just saying.

She's an Aussie seriously lecturing us on the Confederate Battle Flag. She's doing just fine in pointing out her limitations all on her own. I should say, you did actually ask about stuff you didn't understand since you weren't local. She's not got that sense and I'm content for her to demonstrate it.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: South Carolina to Pull Confederate Flag - 6/23/2015 5:57:32 PM   
LipstickLeuger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: LipstickLeuger

All this over a flag.

I don't think any flag except for the American one and the State one, should be flown at any state capitol. The Confederate flag is the symbol of the South and to strip them of their history/symbolism because of this shooting, is not going to help any type of racial relations IMO. I see no problem with having it at Courthouses, or schools or any other Southern place. Besides, I fondly remember the Dukes Of Hazzard with their car the General Lee from my childhood. Racisim is alive and well everywhere in America, not just the South, so to hot button them is inappropriate.


Awe yes, The Dukes Of Hazard, good catch. Freakin offensive show with that offensive car😎

Yeah, still loved it though! LMAO

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Profile   Post #: 60
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