τι συμβαίνει?!?

τι συμβαίνει?!? (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 2:41:17 PM)
"What's Going on?!?" http://news.yahoo.com/greece-votes-high-stakes-bailout-referendum-050534077--finance.html# Anyone have any idea what's going to happen next, and how Greece is ever going to get out of this mess? (ETA: In case anyone is wondering, I have Google Translate to thank for the Subject line.)

JVoV -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 3:06:38 PM)
The country is going to have problems getting financial assistance from outside sources. Taxes will have to go up, services will have to be cut. They'll be forced into a balanced budget whether they like it or not, because more debt won't be an option. We have similar issues here at home, with Puerto Rico. But because Puerto Ricans are US Citizens, they can relocate to the States to find work fairly easily.

DesideriScuri -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 3:15:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV The country is going to have problems getting financial assistance from outside sources. Taxes will have to go up, services will have to be cut. They'll be forced into a balanced budget whether they like it or not, because more debt won't be an option. We have similar issues here at home, with Puerto Rico. But because Puerto Ricans are US Citizens, they can relocate to the States to find work fairly easily. I've heard the US will probably just pay off PR's debts. I mean, what's $72B in debt for the US (1.65% of the $4.37T spending budget)? I wonder if Congress would agree to pay off all PR's debts in exchange for it becoming the 51st State. Tsipras was elected on a platform of no more austerity. Maybe I'm wrong, but "services will have to be cut" sounds like a deeper austerity, not to mention an increase in taxation. I've also heard of another "bail in" where they rape Greek savings accounts for cash. If they go back to the drachma, who is going to want to own any of it? What country is going to accept a drachma as payment? Will they experience hyperinflation, a la Weimar, or Zmbabwe, as they attempt to inflate their debts away? Isn't the US just a great example of how that doesn't necessarily help?!?

Politesub53 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 3:51:02 PM)
Greece has reached the point of no return. Todays vote to reject bailout plans may have been what the Greek government wanted, as it then validates the current stance. I cant see the EU playing the Greeks game and giving in, that would allow anyone with debt to just say we are not paying.

SirMatty1 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 3:59:23 PM)
I would assume that you only studies the recent headline news. The problem aren't the Greek people, the issue at hand is lack of democracy in the EU. The whole leadership was caught off guard, when the referendum was announced. Juncker himself said it more than once "For as long as no one objects, we are just moving on (creating the US of E)" Now the leadership got their balls and boobs kicked in a big way. I applaud the Greek people for having some spine and standing up.

JVoV -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:11:26 PM)
Unless Greece finds investors willing to deal, they'll have no choice but to keep spending in line with income. Austerity is nearly impossible without an amazing economy in the country, which isn't happening for whatever reasons. Balancing the budget is the first step. Fiscal responsibility can't be ignored by government, and excessive spending cannot be maintained without raising income. The Greeks need to look at why jobs aren't being created, and change laws that are in the way.

NorthernGent -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:19:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirMatty1 I would assume that you only studies the recent headline news. The problem aren't the Greek people, the issue at hand is lack of democracy in the EU. The whole leadership was caught off guard, when the referendum was announced. Juncker himself said it more than once "For as long as no one objects, we are just moving on (creating the US of E)" Now the leadership got their balls and boobs kicked in a big way. I applaud the Greek people for having some spine and standing up. That's not quite true. The Greeks signed up to the Euro currency and certain conditions attached to that and they haven't been able to meet some of those conditions. When they signed up to it they knew full well they were relinquishing some power to the Germans as senior partner of the Euro currency. Now that it's gone tits up for the Greeks they're welching on their part of the bargain. German tax payers aren't happy because they're keeping this thing afloat at the expense of the ordinary German. The German government doesn't want to let Greece go because it could be the start of a few more, and the Greeks know this so are negotiating where really they shouldn't be. They knew the rules and signed up to them, but they haven't performed. No one else to blame considering they knew what they were getting themselves into.

SirMatty1 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:22:22 PM)
Goldman Sachs faked the books to start with. The EU has broken every contract under the sun, including the "no bail out".

NorthernGent -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:26:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirMatty1 Goldman Sachs faked the books to start with. The EU has broken every contract under the sun, including the "no bail out". I know, we all know. It's a shambles. A completely undemocratic mess ran by the unelected and/or a group of nobodies. But, that doesn't change the fact that the Greeks joined the Euro because there was something in it for them. And, they haven't fulfilled their part of the bargain. British, German, Dutch taxpayers are paying for this.

Owner59 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:27:58 PM)
[image]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CI-7QdEXAAAf0d4.jpg[/image]

Politesub53 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:29:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirMatty1 I would assume that you only studies the recent headline news. The problem aren't the Greek people, the issue at hand is lack of democracy in the EU. The whole leadership was caught off guard, when the referendum was announced. Juncker himself said it more than once "For as long as no one objects, we are just moving on (creating the US of E)" Now the leadership got their balls and boobs kicked in a big way. I applaud the Greek people for having some spine and standing up. You assume too much and know very little. The problems with Greece joinging the Euro started because they were let in without having the books balanced properly. It suited some other EU members to turn a blind eye at the time, due to the clamour for an ever larger EU. The fact remains the Greeks took on too much debt, and high interest rates have just made matters worse. That has fuck all to do with democracy. You are right about the concept of the EU being undemocratic though. We are due to have a vote on staying in or getting out here in the UK by 2017. I suspect we will be fed some bullshit to get us to stay in, I for one will be voting to get the fuck out.

eulero83 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:30:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri "What's Going on?!?" http://news.yahoo.com/greece-votes-high-stakes-bailout-referendum-050534077--finance.html# Anyone have any idea what's going to happen next, and how Greece is ever going to get out of this mess? (ETA: In case anyone is wondering, I have Google Translate to thank for the Subject line.) hopefully what's going on is the end of that madness called euro. What happened is when the euro was created the various european countries would give away their power of minting their own currency and leaving to private banks the duty to guarantee the value of the money in return of an interest. This basically created a disproportion in the cost of money in the various country where in germany, BeNeLux and france is cheap wher in southern europe having a different economy is more expensive and basically it drained capital from the mediterranean countries to the central ones. This system created not many problems until the usa didn't start the world crisis in 2008. The rules supporting the euro basically rushed with the necessities of the countries to recover from the crisis so policies of austerity were imposed by the european bank to keep the currency strong, while some countries are starting to recover now greece's economy was cushed, the bailout strategy and a road map to recovery that the eu governament imposed to greece didn't improved the economy but killed it, the only effect was the debt was repaid in part by the other countries so private banks would be safe and eventually the people would pay the costs. Now the eu governament imposed other conditions on the same line of austerity for greece, but this time after changing their own governament they tried to negotiate a better deal, the eu governament called an ultimatum and greece prime minister decided to ask with a referendum to the people if the wanted to accept it or not, they voted to reject it. So they may decide now various option the governament is not pushing officially for a national currency but for a better deal, the eu governament said in the last days if they voted no they would be forced to do so. This opens various scenarios for grece and for the rest of europe because let's be clear € is a corrupted system and now people are starting to question it.

SirMatty1 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:35:29 PM)
The Empress of Europe in all her wisdom let that happen. The German finance Minister has no clue about economics, he is a lawyer. Europe is through and through a disaster zone. They get shit nailed to the wall. We got PR on our hands and will get that done one way or another.

NorthernGent -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:38:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri "What's Going on?!?" http://news.yahoo.com/greece-votes-high-stakes-bailout-referendum-050534077--finance.html# Anyone have any idea what's going to happen next, and how Greece is ever going to get out of this mess? (ETA: In case anyone is wondering, I have Google Translate to thank for the Subject line.) hopefully what's going on is the end of that madness called euro. What happened is when the euro was created the various european countries would give away their power of minting their own currency and leaving to private banks the duty to guarantee the value of the money in return of an interest. This basically created a disproportion in the cost of money in the various country where in germany, BeNeLux and france is cheap wher in southern europe having a different economy is more expensive and basically it drained capital from the mediterranean countries to the central ones. This system created not many problems until the usa didn't start the world crisis in 2008. The rules supporting the euro basically rushed with the necessities of the countries to recover from the crisis so policies of austerity were imposed by the european bank to keep the currency strong, while some countries are starting to recover now greece's economy was cushed, the bailout strategy and a road map to recovery that the eu governament imposed to greece didn't improved the economy but killed it, the only effect was the debt was repaid in part by the other countries so private banks would be safe and eventually the people would pay the costs. Now the eu governament imposed other conditions on the same line of austerity for greece, but this time after changing their own governament they tried to negotiate a better deal, the eu governament called an ultimatum and greece prime minister decided to ask with a referendum to the people if the wanted to accept it or not, they voted to reject it. So they may decide now various option the governament is not pushing officially for a national currency but for a better deal, the eu governament said in the last days if they voted no they would be forced to do so. This opens various scenarios for grece and for the rest of europe because let's be clear € is a corrupted system and now people are starting to question it. Not us Eulero, because we haven't adopted it and are clinging doggedly to the Queen's Sterling. It was always going to be a mess because the Germans and French as far back as the 1950s always wanted a fully integrated union, no matter that economies need the power to decide their own interest rates to manage inflation among other things. The whole European Union is a shambles.

JVoV -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:42:23 PM)
It's not like US States aren't carrying debts of their own. http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-debt-does-your-state-have/article/2560310 Even with a central federal government, individual states have different fiscal policies, including tax codes, public spending, etc.

SirMatty1 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:45:34 PM)
In the US we don't bail out other States. In Germany that is a concept going back almost to its founding. We need to keep one thing in mind. There is a very different legal system in Europe. Comparing the US and Europe makes almost no sense because of that.

Politesub53 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:46:03 PM)
The ONLY way the Euro could ever work is if every member nation was in complete lockstep financially. That would mean having the same taxes, growth rates etc etc. It doesnt work, has never worked, will never work.

eulero83 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:47:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV Unless Greece finds investors willing to deal, they'll have no choice but to keep spending in line with income. They might have better commercial deals from russia, and by the way they are a very turistic country if they weaken their corrency more people would go there because they would find it cheaper, they produce a lot of oil that could be exported more easly, so they are not doomed if they bail out. quote: Austerity is nearly impossible without an amazing economy in the country, which isn't happening for whatever reasons. Balancing the budget is the first step. Fiscal responsibility can't be ignored by government, and excessive spending cannot be maintained without raising income. The Greeks need to look at why jobs aren't being created, and change laws that are in the way. When they buy money their bonds go away at a 15% interest this means that share of taxes raised is not invested in the country's economy but goes to others, in germany it's 3% for example, here in italy it's the 8%. That's the main reason.

NorthernGent -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV It's not like US States aren't carrying debts of their own. http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-debt-does-your-state-have/article/2560310 Even with a central federal government, individual states have different fiscal policies, including tax codes, public spending, etc. There is a difference, though. You're all Americans. Culturally you're all pretty similar. The odd difference here and there but generally you perceive yourselves to be one nation. This is the exact opposite. We, the English, feel we have very little in common with these people. The fact we are geographically in a place called Europe is immaterial. So, what are we doing in a union with these people? It's not that we don't like them, we just don't agree with them on most things. So, how on earth can we forge a partnership with a group of people with whom we disagree on most things? Madness.

SirMatty1 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:49:23 PM)
Which basically requires one Government. The jerks took the second step (one currency) before the first (one Government to ensure the same laws and principles). You can't have independent national economic rules, when you don't "own" your currency.

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