RE: τι συμβαίνει?!?

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eulero83 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 4:56:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 hopefully what's going on is the end of that madness called euro. What happened is when the euro was created the various european countries would give away their power of minting their own currency and leaving to private banks the duty to guarantee the value of the money in return of an interest. This basically created a disproportion in the cost of money in the various country where in germany, BeNeLux and france is cheap wher in southern europe having a different economy is more expensive and basically it drained capital from the mediterranean countries to the central ones. This system created not many problems until the usa didn't start the world crisis in 2008. The rules supporting the euro basically rushed with the necessities of the countries to recover from the crisis so policies of austerity were imposed by the european bank to keep the currency strong, while some countries are starting to recover now greece's economy was cushed, the bailout strategy and a road map to recovery that the eu governament imposed to greece didn't improved the economy but killed it, the only effect was the debt was repaid in part by the other countries so private banks would be safe and eventually the people would pay the costs. Now the eu governament imposed other conditions on the same line of austerity for greece, but this time after changing their own governament they tried to negotiate a better deal, the eu governament called an ultimatum and greece prime minister decided to ask with a referendum to the people if the wanted to accept it or not, they voted to reject it. So they may decide now various option the governament is not pushing officially for a national currency but for a better deal, the eu governament said in the last days if they voted no they would be forced to do so. This opens various scenarios for grece and for the rest of europe because let's be clear € is a corrupted system and now people are starting to question it. Not us Eulero, because we haven't adopted it and are clinging doggedly to the Queen's Sterling. It was always going to be a mess because the Germans and French as far back as the 1950s always wanted a fully integrated union, no matter that economies need the power to decide their own interest rates to manage inflation among other things. The whole European Union is a shambles. I know that's why I never named the UK, I agree with what you wrote, unfortunatly when Italy started to question the system Berlusconi's depravity was leaked and we end up with Monti... I've never been for cospiration theory but...

eulero83 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 5:07:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I've also heard of another "bail in" where they rape Greek savings accounts for cash. If they go back to the drachma, who is going to want to own any of it? What country is going to accept a drachma as payment? Will they experience hyperinflation, a la Weimar, or Zmbabwe, as they attempt to inflate their debts away? Isn't the US just a great example of how that doesn't necessarily help?!? Many foreigner go to greece every year and they bring in euros and pounds, other countries may not want drachmas but olive oil and if the greek one is cheaper many other countries will prefer it, so they probably may get in more euros than those they spend.

NorthernGent -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 5:10:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I know that's why I never named the UK, I agree with what you wrote, unfortunatly when Italy started to question the system Berlusconi's depravity was leaked and we end up with Monti... I've never been for cospiration theory but... I can't conceive of any scenario where we won't vote to leave this union at the referendum. But, something is going on behind the scenes, because when we got hit with a bill to bail out a few countries our Prime Minister said we're not paying it. A week later the money was handed over. So, someone, somewhere has got us over a barrel and I wonder who it is and what it means for the referendum.

SirMatty1 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 5:14:33 PM)
If Olive Oil or others, Greece is broke. What the EU doesn't do is providing economical help. Greece has no industry that would get them anywhere. On the other hand, the other EU countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Cypress) are sick too. France has the flue and the UK can't stay far enough away from them. Merkel is busy with the talk of the day and no one looks at the real problem.

DesideriScuri -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 5:57:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV Unless Greece finds investors willing to deal, they'll have no choice but to keep spending in line with income. Austerity is nearly impossible without an amazing economy in the country, which isn't happening for whatever reasons. Balancing the budget is the first step. Fiscal responsibility can't be ignored by government, and excessive spending cannot be maintained without raising income. The Greeks need to look at why jobs aren't being created, and change laws that are in the way. The bold part is, pretty much, why Greece is so financially fucked up. There was little, if any, fiscal responsibility. Much of their spending was "excessive," relative to income. I just don't see how they dig themselves out. Will there be a mass exodus out of Greece? The ones that have the means to leave may take their incomes (and, therefore, tax revenues) with them, exacerbating the situation.

SirMatty1 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 6:03:52 PM)
With 170% debt on the BIP, there is no chance in hell they can balance the budget. That thing is down the toilet and it is the EZB fault, plus the EU Commission and Merkel. They should have put the breaks on years ago.

DesideriScuri -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 6:04:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirMatty1 With 170% debt on the BIP, there is no chance in hell they can balance the budget. That thing is down the toilet and it is the EZB fault, plus the EU Commission and Merkel. They should have put the breaks on years ago. No fault on the Greek government?

Zonie63 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 6:33:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV It's not like US States aren't carrying debts of their own. http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-debt-does-your-state-have/article/2560310 Even with a central federal government, individual states have different fiscal policies, including tax codes, public spending, etc. There is a difference, though. You're all Americans. Culturally you're all pretty similar. The odd difference here and there but generally you perceive yourselves to be one nation. This is true, although another key difference is that most of the tax money goes to the Federal government, as they do most of the spending. Do the taxpayers in the EU pay directly to their national governments or directly to the EU? quote: This is the exact opposite. We, the English, feel we have very little in common with these people. The fact we are geographically in a place called Europe is immaterial. So, what are we doing in a union with these people? It's not that we don't like them, we just don't agree with them on most things. So, how on earth can we forge a partnership with a group of people with whom we disagree on most things? Madness. I suppose it can be the same with any alliance, or even with the United Nations. My understanding is that one of the early motivators of the EU and its predecessors was to bring about greater political stability in Europe and minimize the causes for war. The US had to pour a lot of money into Greece during the Marshall Plan due to fears that Greece might turn communist. If the Greek economy falters and the political situation destabilizes, that could be a serious problem for Western interests. Greece is strategically located in a geopolitically fragile region. I think the West may have to think about ponying up whatever is needed to keep Greece within the Western fold.

Owner59 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 6:45:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirMatty1 The Empress of Europe in all her wisdom let that happen. The German finance Minister has no clue about economics, he is a lawyer. Europe is through and through a disaster zone. They get shit nailed to the wall. We got PR on our hands and will get that done one way or another. [image]http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/Kij/gao/Kijgao6eT.jpeg[/image]

JVoV -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/5/2015 7:27:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV It's not like US States aren't carrying debts of their own. http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-debt-does-your-state-have/article/2560310 Even with a central federal government, individual states have different fiscal policies, including tax codes, public spending, etc. There is a difference, though. You're all Americans. Culturally you're all pretty similar. The odd difference here and there but generally you perceive yourselves to be one nation. This is the exact opposite. We, the English, feel we have very little in common with these people. The fact we are geographically in a place called Europe is immaterial. So, what are we doing in a union with these people? It's not that we don't like them, we just don't agree with them on most things. So, how on earth can we forge a partnership with a group of people with whom we disagree on most things? Madness. Culturally similar? I think I'm insulted. Yet, with as different as each State is, we're all Americans. A real European Union will never be as simple, because none of the countries involved will ever agree to losing sovereignty, and thus their 'identity'. Otherwise Napoleon or Hitler wouldn't have had such a hard time.

tj444 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 9:47:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV We have similar issues here at home, with Puerto Rico. But because Puerto Ricans are US Citizens, they can relocate to the States to find work fairly easily. well,.. they still need the money for a plane ticket... that in itself is not easy at all if you have no cash..

tj444 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 9:51:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: SirMatty1 With 170% debt on the BIP, there is no chance in hell they can balance the budget. That thing is down the toilet and it is the EZB fault, plus the EU Commission and Merkel. They should have put the breaks on years ago. No fault on the Greek government? Isnt it like politics here? you always blame the previous govt/party in power... [;)]

tj444 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 10:01:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You are right about the concept of the EU being undemocratic though. We are due to have a vote on staying in or getting out here in the UK by 2017. I suspect we will be fed some bullshit to get us to stay in, I for one will be voting to get the fuck out. when is the vote in the UK? and of those fellow Brits you have talked to about in or out, what do most have to say about how they will vote?

tj444 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 10:13:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Not us Eulero, because we haven't adopted it and are clinging doggedly to the Queen's Sterling. It was always going to be a mess because the Germans and French as far back as the 1950s always wanted a fully integrated union, no matter that economies need the power to decide their own interest rates to manage inflation among other things. The whole European Union is a shambles. I think that each Euro country should do the same, keep their currency and have the Euro currency as a common/reserve currency to float against.. I dont think the EU central dictatorship govt is a benefit to anyone and it should be disbanded and go back to agreements between countries.. But imo the Euro currency should stay as an option against the US dollar, if there is no Euro currency then the US govt can continue to dictate, control and blackmail the rest of the world.. the only other option will be whatever China comes up with.. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-15/china-s-yuan-may-draw-1-trillion-on-getting-imf-reserve-status

Politesub53 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 3:48:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You are right about the concept of the EU being undemocratic though. We are due to have a vote on staying in or getting out here in the UK by 2017. I suspect we will be fed some bullshit to get us to stay in, I for one will be voting to get the fuck out. when is the vote in the UK? and of those fellow Brits you have talked to about in or out, what do most have to say about how they will vote? The vote has been promised for the end of 2017, the likelyhood is it will take place next year though. Public opinion is split and politicians are also split, even those from the same party, I will try and find a recent poll tomorrow if I remember. I am expecting an onslaught of reasons not to quit from the Conservatives and Labour, so I am not hopeful that we will be given the exacts facts on "What ifs" We have had one referendem on this before back in 1974 or 1975. The older generation will recall we were lied to back then abd told it was just a Common Market. The younger generation have never had a chance to vote on the issue. Cameron will be hoping the whole sorry house of cards doesnt start to implode before polling day.

Politesub53 -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 3:59:02 PM)
TJ......... Split opinions from different polls. I suspect it will be close in the polls until mich closer to the poll. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/21/majority-electorate-vote-uk-leave-eu-poll http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11617702/poll.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8112935e-e2ca-11e4-bf4b-00144feab7de.html#axzz3f9fAYYW6 The Guardian is left wing, the Telegraph is right wing. The FT shows an opinion poll but also has its own poll. click the tab for results. It is hardly surprising the FTs own poll shows a vote to stay in, as most of its readers do business in the EU.

Lucylastic -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 4:02:44 PM)
I wasnt old enough to vote in the referendum in the early 70s, but my dad used to be apoplectic about the common market. I wont vote in this one either, but my vote would be go......

MercTech -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 4:12:19 PM)
Too bad you can't treat a country like they do a failed corporation. Assign a court appointed executor to dispose of assets and pay off debts as best able. Hmmm, I wonder what the Parthenon would go for?

MrRodgers -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 4:43:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirMatty1 In the US we don't bail out other States. In Germany that is a concept going back almost to its founding. We need to keep one thing in mind. There is a very different legal system in Europe. Comparing the US and Europe makes almost no sense because of that. Germany in fact bailout Berlin and much more than Detroit needed. All secret and behind the scenes. States may be one thing but think of this socialism for the rich: 1970 Penn Central RR $3.2 billion 1971 Lockheed $1.4 billion 1974 Franklin National Bank $7.8 billion 1975 New York City $9.4 billion 1980 Chrysler $4.0 billion 1984 Central Illinois National Bank & Trust $9.5 billion 1989 Savings & Loans $293.3 billion 2001 Airline Industry $18.6 billion 2008 Bear Sterns $30 billion 2008 Auto Industry $25 billion 2008 Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae $400 billion 2008 American International Group $180 billion 2008 TARP $700 billion 2008 Citigroup $280 billion 2009 Bank of America $142.2 billion .....and how 'bout that federal reserve again hey ? Upon hearing the announcement that the first-ever audit would take place in July, the media was bowled over and nearly every broadcast network and newspaper covered the story. However, the audit’s findings were almost completely overlooked, even with a number as high as $16 trillion staring all of us in the face. The GAO report said that the Fed issued “conflict of interest waivers to employees and private contractors so they could keep investments in the same financial institutions and corporations that were given emergency loans.” The audit will inspect the “conflicts of interest” and the inner-workings of the Fed’s emergency-lending programs. HERE

MrRodgers -> RE: τι συμβαίνει?!? (7/6/2015 5:12:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Too bad you can't treat a country like they do a failed corporation. Assign a court appointed executor to dispose of assets and pay off debts as best able. Hmmm, I wonder what the Parthenon would go for? Unlike Greece, most corp. are allowed a bankruptcy chapter for reorganization. (few are liq. chapter 7, worst outcome) Seems Greece is being given the heave ho. Stupid, as lenders will now get less than they otherwise would if they's just extend. BTW Greece is now running a surplus not counting interest. Greece has 25% unemployment, has cut spending to the bone and the economy is in virtual depression. Lenders gain nothing with existing demands.

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