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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:18:17 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Please look at the demographics thus far in this topic, a balanced debate cant be had...
jus sayin

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 5:09:05 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		quick anecdote---I once interviewed for a college position and was told by the interviewer "if it was completely up to me, id hire you in a minute, but I have to be honest, youre the wrong color and gender."

if I were a black person, or a woman, and I learned about that (what I just said), I think id be ashamed to be the hire, or at the very least, the temptation to be ashamed would be there, as well as a great deal of doubt.


(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 6:28:00 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		By focussing entirely and solely on the effects of AA on the entrance criteria, one gets a skewed vision of what AA is and what it seeks to achieve.

My University runs AA programs targetting groups such as Aborigines and people from Non-English Speaking backgrounds. Students from these programs tend to be more committed and achieve better outcomes than average. Communities such as these have virtually zero representation in the professsions such as law, medicine. There are virtually no Aboriginal doctors - IIRC the first one graduated about 5 years ago. Yet Aboriginal communities have appalling health services with something like a 20 year gap between Aboriginal life expectancy future and the figure for all Australians. Ditto for legal professionals. Ditto for all and any professions. Communities such as these do not possess a middle class, and until one emerges, their future outlook will continue to be dire. So, there is an urgent need for members of these communities to acquire the professional skills that empower them and greatly increase their level of self reliance.

It is difficult to quantify outcomes of AA but a broad long term indicator will be the emergence and growth of middle/professional classes in currently marginalised communities. Nor is it possible to quantify the exact amount of $ that are being saved currently and will continue to be saved in future as these communities find their way out of the poverty trap that generations of widespread often state sponsored racism assigned them to (probably led out of the trap by graduates of AA programs)

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/6/2015 6:49:50 AM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 6:33:52 AM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2347
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

It has been demonstrated repeatedly that government help for the underprivileged has little long term effect


No it has not been proven... affirmative action has been a great success. Yes the rest of your post is sensible and I agree but affirmative action based on scholastic ability and economic standing would be a wise, useful, and successful use of our money. We talk about the need for better education in the inner cities and poor rural America... will here is a constructive way to achieve it...EDUCATION is the key to a better life.

Butch


Affirmative Action has been a great success?? In what way???

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 7:29:18 AM   
SweetAnise


Posts: 480
Joined: 8/23/2013
Status: offline 		I don't come here at all but must say something quickly. You do realize that Affirmative Action (AA) was created not just for blacks? It was created for all minorities who were qualified. ALL minorities including Latinos, Armenians, Irish, Indian, women and anyone who were subject to discrimination, prejudice, and racism?

You do know that although AA stated minorities had the right to be hired at jobs and have a good education- employers and schools were still not being hired at alarming rates and more specifically because of their race. So the government placed racial quotas that told schools and empolyers that if they DID NOT hire a certain number of ethnic groups they would lose federal and state funding. Thus allowing these ethnic minorities to work and go to school and making things fairs. And it was good and it worked for a long time

BUT something happen....

Employers and Schools reverted back to their old ways of not hiring certain minorities and ethnic minority races and found a loophole in both AA and the racial quotas. If they didn't hire or allow these groups into schools before the federal government would step in they would suddenly just hire and admit anyone.

For example: All year long a university is accept predominately white students suddenly realizes they don't have enough minorities and would be subject to penalties by the government. They would then grab ANY applicant qualified or not and ACCEPT THEM.

Another example: If a white American John and black American Jim was taking the firemen's test and the department has not been hiring any minorities and only their own (you know what I mean)- knowing they would get a hefty penalty in their reporting to the government- John receive a 95 and Jim receives 85. Jim will be hired not because of his score but for the department to seem to comply with the law. Upsetting John and making him feel this is reverse discrimination but since he doesn't understand what is really going on...he goes online and post a bunch of angry notes that it is unfair that black can use the race card etc...blah blah. If John only knew the truth. If Jim know the truth he would be upset too...but for him he sees this as a step up and gladly takes the position.

My point? AA and racial quotas are being misused and abused by certain groups to keep their funding. So when I hear people asking how AA is no longer helpful because racism or discrimination doesn't really exist anymore. Or that white Americans begin screaming about reverse discrimination. I explain that something that was use to protect minorities and ethnic groups for discrimination is being abused by those for money. Take AA and racial quota away and we will revert back to the same way of thinking.

Meaning...nothing has changed. Discrimination is still alive and well. Racism still exists and AA and Racial Quotas are being used to make it is look like White Americans are losing when they are the ones doing the same old behavior.

Just my thoughts and I will likely not read replies because I don't really come here much. But I just had to say something :) Have a great day.

< Message edited by SweetAnise -- 7/6/2015 7:37:53 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 9:31:18 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		DesideriScuri

I believe the various, any, and all affirmative action programs of today can and should use economic standing and scholastic ability instead of race as the determining factor in applications for aid.

What should be the purpose of these programs today?.... Should it be to assure employment and education opportunities reflect the ethnic makeup of the area.... or... to help those that need it most regardless of racial makeup of the area?

I believe there was a time when racial or ethnic factors were needed to help minorities recover from past discrimination.... It has worked wonderfully and the makeup of the both white and blue collar work force reflects this. The overall wealth of many minorities has been increased greatly.

I also believe there is still work to be done in minority communities but the political and economic situation in America will force the end of affirmative action as it is used today...and it should. Now is the time to remove the racial requirement but instead of throwing an excellent program away I believe we should continue using economics... That is if America is willing to continue helping those less fortunate.

Government aid is a contentious subject in these poor economic times... I understand this. This means that any program we keep must serve a needed purpose that is temporary and efficient and will in the end produce more than it costs. Education is and will continue to be the key to a prosperous future. Not only will we benefit from this generation but educated prosperous parents have a much better chance of producing prosperous, or at least self sufficient children. In the long run this program will strengthen our tax base and lessen government dependant aid... What can be bad about this?

Yes it is not the end all catch all solution but it is a good step in that direction.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/6/2015 9:37:55 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 10:10:19 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Affirmative Action has been a great success?? In what way???


There are now many professional blacks and other minorities in the boardrooms... in research... in government.... in production... on the bench up to the Supreme Court...in all other sectors of employment because of the aid they received through affirmative action. I can tell you from personal experience many of the entities I worked for or with are actively looking for educated African Americans to employ. Affirmative action helped fill many of those jobs that before could not be filled because of lack of applicants.

This was the purpose and it worked.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/6/2015 10:29:21 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 12:07:20 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

By focussing entirely and solely on the effects of AA on the entrance criteria, one gets a skewed vision of what AA is and what it seeks to achieve.

My University runs AA programs targetting groups such as Aborigines and people from Non-English Speaking backgrounds. Students from these programs tend to be more committed and achieve better outcomes than average. Communities such as these have virtually zero representation in the professsions such as law, medicine. There are virtually no Aboriginal doctors - IIRC the first one graduated about 5 years ago. Yet Aboriginal communities have appalling health services with something like a 20 year gap between Aboriginal life expectancy future and the figure for all Australians. Ditto for legal professionals. Ditto for all and any professions. Communities such as these do not possess a middle class, and until one emerges, their future outlook will continue to be dire. So, there is an urgent need for members of these communities to acquire the professional skills that empower them and greatly increase their level of self reliance.

It is difficult to quantify outcomes of AA but a broad long term indicator will be the emergence and growth of middle/professional classes in currently marginalised communities. Nor is it possible to quantify the exact amount of $ that are being saved currently and will continue to be saved in future as these communities find their way out of the poverty trap that generations of widespread often state sponsored racism assigned them to (probably led out of the trap by graduates of AA programs)

We all know what the purpose of AA is (other than helping people quit drinking) and it is well intentioned. We also know that it constitutes discrimination against anyone it isn't helping. The third thing we know is that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 3:53:11 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Give a man a fish and he is not hungry today. Teach a man to fish and he is not hungry the rest of this life. We tend to give a man a fish, again and again and again and because we do he does not want to learn to fish and you will have to take fish from those who do fish and so they will either stop fishing or fish somewhere else.

If you poison the water, the fish die, if cut down on the amount of fish allowed per day, the people die. If you swap the rod for a net, the catch is at least halved...
IF you pass around barbless hooks, they aint gonna catch bugger all.
Republicans have never found a social program they didnt like to cut.
The douchebag in kansas proved that.
25$ per day for withdrawl. What bright spark didnt notice that you can only withdraw cash in 20 $ increments. and pay a buck for the privilege.
Cutting social programs is doing the damage, cutting the wrong THINGS is doing the damage.


But social programs don't teach a man to fish. Education does. So, what do you think about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him a free one, taken from a fisherman, every day?

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 3:55:49 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Affirmative Action has been a great success?? In what way???


There are now many professional blacks and other minorities in the boardrooms... in research... in government.... in production... on the bench up to the Supreme Court...in all other sectors of employment because of the aid they received through affirmative action. I can tell you from personal experience many of the entities I worked for or with are actively looking for educated African Americans to employ. Affirmative action helped fill many of those jobs that before could not be filled because of lack of applicants.

This was the purpose and it worked.

Butch


Don't think so. Those Blacks made their own way. Affirmative action never sent anyone to a boardroom. I myself have an office between two Black professionals who worked hard to get where they are just as I did and were not hired based on some affirmative action measures.

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"We master Our world."

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 3:58:06 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Give a man a fish and he is not hungry today. Teach a man to fish and he is not hungry the rest of this life. We tend to give a man a fish, again and again and again and because we do he does not want to learn to fish and you will have to take fish from those who do fish and so they will either stop fishing or fish somewhere else.

If you poison the water, the fish die, if cut down on the amount of fish allowed per day, the people die. If you swap the rod for a net, the catch is at least halved...
IF you pass around barbless hooks, they aint gonna catch bugger all.
Republicans have never found a social program they didnt like to cut.
The douchebag in kansas proved that.
25$ per day for withdrawl. What bright spark didnt notice that you can only withdraw cash in 20 $ increments. and pay a buck for the privilege.
Cutting social programs is doing the damage, cutting the wrong THINGS is doing the damage.


But social programs don't teach a man to fish. Education does. So, what do you think about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him a free one, taken from a fisherman, every day?

Another area cut every time theres money to be saved. You aint doing so good.


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:00:11 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		Affirmative Action tells people, "You are not good enough to get this job on your own merits, so we are going to skew things for you."

Why would I want a job like that?

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:02:53 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Affirmative Action has been a great success?? In what way???


There are now many professional blacks and other minorities in the boardrooms... in research... in government.... in production... on the bench up to the Supreme Court...in all other sectors of employment because of the aid they received through affirmative action. I can tell you from personal experience many of the entities I worked for or with are actively looking for educated African Americans to employ. Affirmative action helped fill many of those jobs that before could not be filled because of lack of applicants.

This was the purpose and it worked.

Butch


Don't think so. Those Blacks made their own way. Affirmative action never sent anyone to a boardroom. I myself have an office between two Black professionals who worked hard to get where they are just as I did and were not hired based on some affirmative action measures.

Clarence Thomas admitted to taking advantage of AA. It was his judgement and position that AA helped him make his way into law.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/6/2015 4:10:42 PM >

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:09:33 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Affirmative action had done it's job by the end of the 1980s. It is still around because of bureaucratic inertia and because it is PC to discriminate in favor of the "poor underprivileged minorities that would never make it without special dispensation."

I consider it just another form or racism jut more insidious than derogatory speech.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:20:13 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quick anecdote---I once interviewed for a college position and was told by the interviewer "if it was completely up to me, id hire you in a minute, but I have to be honest, youre the wrong color and gender."





Surely this is one of the plus points of AA, it gives people an excellent excuse not to hire people who "may" be qualified but are just trouble



< Message edited by deathtothepixies -- 7/6/2015 4:21:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:37:04 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		The last time I had an interview that I could tell was a non-starter because I didn't have a congenital suntan; I had the interviewer very very afraid... "So you are refusing to hire a disabled veteran due to racial discrimination?"

They ended up making me a job offer at 1/3 the going rate for such a position since I "already had an income from my disability pension".

They were lucky I find lawsuit trolling distasteful and I really didn't want the job. (Ya just have to do three contacts a week when drawing unemployment insurance) There lawyer could have bought a vacation home by the time one could be done with them. Maybe we need a thread on stupid things one has heard fro a job interviewer?

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:40:15 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

The last time I had an interview that I could tell was a non-starter because I didn't have a congenital suntan; I had the interviewer very very afraid... "So you are refusing to hire a disabled veteran due to racial discrimination?"

They ended up making me a job offer at 1/3 the going rate for such a position since I "already had an income from my disability pension".

They were lucky I find lawsuit trolling distasteful and I really didn't want the job. (Ya just have to do three contacts a week when drawing unemployment insurance) There lawyer could have bought a vacation home by the time one could be done with them. Maybe we need a thread on stupid things one has heard fro a job interviewer?

I had a job interviewer tell me he couldn't hire me because I was white. And this was under a court approved AA program.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:42:44 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
The University of Texas gets part of its diversity from taking the students from the top 20% of their class in any school district. All top students in their respective areas have a way in.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:46:00 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The University of Texas gets part of its diversity from taking the students from the top 20% of their class in any school district. All top students in their respective areas have a way in.

That would be entry based on merit, which is not AA.
Is diversity a plus when quality suffers?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 4:47:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quick anecdote---I once interviewed for a college position and was told by the interviewer "if it was completely up to me, id hire you in a minute, but I have to be honest, youre the wrong color and gender."





Surely this is one of the plus points of AA, it gives people an excellent excuse not to hire people who "may" be qualified but are just trouble



And yet this was the opening of the interview, does the fact that he was white and retired military make him trouble. Or maybe he was more qualified than the person doing the interview.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 40
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