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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 8:27:29 PM

LookieNoNookie

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ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

Why is Affirmative Action/racial quotas (particularly in University admissions) allowed to continue? It is clearly racism by definition, and looks to me like a clear violation Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment.

How is this process still legal?

Most colleges have eliminated affirmative action for the very reasons you describe.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 10:26:41 PM

Owner59

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It was a reasonable remedy for centuries of slavery and decades of jim crow, legal oppression and discrimination.

Considering the republican pieces of shit attempting/succeeding in suppressing black voters, obviously we still have a ways to go.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 11:22:26 PM

Arturas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Affirmative Action has been a great success?? In what way???

There are now many professional blacks and other minorities in the boardrooms... in research... in government.... in production... on the bench up to the Supreme Court...in all other sectors of employment because of the aid they received through affirmative action. I can tell you from personal experience many of the entities I worked for or with are actively looking for educated African Americans to employ. Affirmative action helped fill many of those jobs that before could not be filled because of lack of applicants.

This was the purpose and it worked.

Butch

Don't think so. Those Blacks made their own way. Affirmative action never sent anyone to a boardroom. I myself have an office between two Black professionals who worked hard to get where they are just as I did and were not hired based on some affirmative action measures.

Clarence Thomas admitted to taking advantage of AA. It was his judgement and position that AA helped him make his way into law.

You mean he was not good enough to enroll in Yale and got in by bumping his betters using AA. That's how AA works. This is not an impressive endorsement of AA.

Justice Thomas is on record opposing desegregation and large government. Still, he cannot be criticized for not following his beliefs when it came to taking advantage of bigger government intrusions. Or can he? What is his "code".

< Message edited by Arturas -- 7/6/2015 11:25:19 PM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/6/2015 11:37:57 PM

Owner59

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Thomas benefited from AA....

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 1:55:45 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It was a reasonable remedy for centuries of slavery and decades of jim crow, legal oppression and discrimination.

Considering the republican pieces of shit attempting/succeeding in suppressing black voters, obviously we still have a ways to go.

Yes. AA has helped countless members of minority groups escape the poverty of their birth and into the professional classes in various places around the planet. I'd imagine it is particularly effective in the USA where tertiary education is a for-profit enterprise.

Here in Australia, one must achiereve similar educational levels as any other aspirant to a University place before one qualifies for AA support. So all the anecdotal complaints about low achievers using AA to deprive higher achievers of their 'rightful' place at University simply don't apply. Students who receive AA support tend to achieve better outcomes than average students, with higher graduation rates, higher post grad outcomes and better quality results (educationally).

As I pointed out in an previous post, the benefits of AA are long term. These kinds of successful programs should continue until minority groups achieve their pro-rata representation in the professions. Only when that long term goal is achieved will the need for AA-type programs vanish

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/7/2015 2:02:39 AM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 2:56:51 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
There is just no way education aid will continue dependence... of all the government programs those concerned with education have the biggest positive impact on the quality of life in this country. Why let the poor continue to raise more uneducated poor that are a burden on tax payers? Lets educate them so they can support themselves and contribute to the tax base and raise future tax payers... You think churches and private donations will do it? If that were the case there would be no need for government support in the first place.

I'm not opposed to public schools. I am opposed to just throwing more money at the same problems we threw money at before (esp. when nothing has changed for the better). I don't know what the answer is to get parents to provide a positive academic environment to their children. THAT would be the greatest boon for public schools and the economically challenged.

Churches and private donations were doing it. Not everyone is going to have a perfect life. There always was help from private donation sources (charities). It wasn't glamorous. It wasn't great. No one wanted to depend on someone else to provide for them. Along comes government, and those that rely on the system by choice don't have to rely on the benevolence of others; that "benevolence" is taken from others by government.

quote:

So you believe that we should be satisfied with classes of income in the US? Because there will always be poor we should not try to reduce the number and increase the well being of our fellow citizens...harsh.

Nowhere did I state anything like that.

quote:

You and others keep saying the government should not aid the poor... the government is not the best way to do it... well my friend what is. It has not been there in the past so I don't see a change in the future.

Look at my sig line. See the part about helping the "truly needy?" Government certainly can help. I'd much rather see that happen at a more local level, rather than at the Federal level (pesky lack of authority in the Constitution keeps rearing it's head). My "neighbors" aren't in Louisiana. Hell, my "neighbors" aren't in Michigan or Indiana.

How well has the War on Poverty worked out?

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 3:07:31 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It is hard to pay the high cost of education... think we should do something about that?... Oh I forgot private donations and churches will take care of that.
Maybe we should shift a little attention from wars...and guns...and gay marriage to education.
Butch

Butch, the high cost of education is due, in part, to government "helping" people afford it.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 3:19:23 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
As I pointed out in an previous post, the benefits of AA are long term. These kinds of successful programs should continue until minority groups achieve their pro-rata representation in the professions. Only when that long term goal is achieved will the need for AA-type programs vanish

If whites want to be CPA's at a higher rate than blacks (higher, even, than their racial proportions in the population), how is it okay to not stop AA-type hiring programs?

Why is it okay to take Student A over Student B simply because the only difference between the two is that Student A is a minority, and Student B is not?

Why is it okay for a collegiate educational program to accept more minority and/or women than white men (every applicant has to qualify to a certain level, but, after that, race and gender take a preferential role, regardless of how much more qualified an applicant is)? How can that be right?

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 7:56:45 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
As I pointed out in an previous post, the benefits of AA are long term. These kinds of successful programs should continue until minority groups achieve their pro-rata representation in the professions. Only when that long term goal is achieved will the need for AA-type programs vanish

If whites want to be CPA's at a higher rate than blacks (higher, even, than their racial proportions in the population), how is it okay to not stop AA-type hiring programs?

Why is it okay to take Student A over Student B simply because the only difference between the two is that Student A is a minority, and Student B is not?

Why is it okay for a collegiate educational program to accept more minority and/or women than white men (every applicant has to qualify to a certain level, but, after that, race and gender take a preferential role, regardless of how much more qualified an applicant is)? How can that be right?

What about the Asians? They are the new Jews in the college system. Much more qualified than anyone, but gain entrance at a lower rate. There is your reverse discrimination right there.

The other thing to ask yourself. . . okay. . . we are going to allow in some with lower merit based on skin color or sex (Because Diversity! Shut UP!). . . how do they do? Not very well, actually. Ya see, Colleges are not all equal in their faculty and professors and research.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 8:19:05 AM

kdsub

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quote:

government programs have greatly contributed to the extreme increases in the cost of an education

How and why

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 8:31:17 AM

kdsub

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quote:

Nowhere did I state anything like that

But you did... You said this...

.There will never ever be a time when there isn't poverty in the US. Even if the government handed out $100k to every man woman and child in the US every year, you and I both know cost of goods will rise accordingly and what it costs for a family of 4 to live (I think that's the metric for the poverty line) will rise accordingly....

In response to my contention that education would reduce the poor in American and make them tax paying citizens. This says to me you are OK with the poor and we should not use education to reduce their numbers...because... well... there will always be poor...Why else would you say that in response to my post?

Don't you think it a bit silly to say because there has been waste in government aid in the past we should not give needed aid in the future... A better response would be how we can assure our tax money is spent wisely to alleviate the suffering of the poor and provide for our general welfare? This the number one job of our government.

I have an even better idea if you don't like helping the poor... Why not extend free public education through four years of college... then it would not be aid but extending our domination on the world scene into the future.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/7/2015 8:34:59 AM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 11:50:32 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Nowhere did I state anything like that

But you did... You said this...

.There will never ever be a time when there isn't poverty in the US. Even if the government handed out $100k to every man woman and child in the US every year, you and I both know cost of goods will rise accordingly and what it costs for a family of 4 to live (I think that's the metric for the poverty line) will rise accordingly....

In response to my contention that education would reduce the poor in American and make them tax paying citizens. This says to me you are OK with the poor and we should not use education to reduce their numbers...because... well... there will always be poor...Why else would you say that in response to my post?

Don't you think it a bit silly to say because there has been waste in government aid in the past we should not give needed aid in the future... A better response would be how we can assure our tax money is spent wisely to alleviate the suffering of the poor and provide for our general welfare? This the number one job of our government.

I have an even better idea if you don't like helping the poor... Why not extend free public education through four years of college... then it would not be aid but extending our domination on the world scene into the future.

Butch

As for more government aid even though it hasn't worked in the past I refer you to Einstein's definition of insanity.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 12:41:02 PM

Arturas

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quote:

These kinds of successful programs should continue until minority groups achieve their pro-rata representation in the professions.

You forgot to add "artificially" to the end.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 2:41:45 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

government programs have greatly contributed to the extreme increases in the cost of an education

How and why

Seriously? When you have the opportunity for government to help pay for college, but only for those who can't afford it, doesn't increasing your tuition and fees make it more likely people won't be able to afford it?

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/11/23/why-the-government-is-to-blame-for-high-college-costs

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/18/290868013/how-the-cost-of-college-went-from-affordable-to-sky-high

http://mercatus.org/expert_commentary/subsidized-loans-drive-college-tuition-student-debt-record-levels

http://www.heritage.org/research/education-notebook/the-real-problem-of-rising-college-costs

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/02/is-financial-aid-really-making-college-more-expensive/253153/

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 2:48:36 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Nowhere did I state anything like that

But you did... You said this...
.There will never ever be a time when there isn't poverty in the US. Even if the government handed out $100k to every man woman and child in the US every year, you and I both know cost of goods will rise accordingly and what it costs for a family of 4 to live (I think that's the metric for the poverty line) will rise accordingly....
In response to my contention that education would reduce the poor in American and make them tax paying citizens. This says to me you are OK with the poor and we should not use education to reduce their numbers...because... well... there will always be poor...Why else would you say that in response to my post?
Don't you think it a bit silly to say because there has been waste in government aid in the past we should not give needed aid in the future... A better response would be how we can assure our tax money is spent wisely to alleviate the suffering of the poor and provide for our general welfare? This the number one job of our government.
I have an even better idea if you don't like helping the poor... Why not extend free public education through four years of college... then it would not be aid but extending our domination on the world scene into the future.
Butch

Completely wrong analysis. How does one determine who is "poor?"

Do we set it at some percentage of median income? Fuck. When median income rises, so does the level at which someone is considered "poor."

Do we set it as the bottom 25% of income earners? Fuck, again. There will always be a bottom 25%.

Do we set it at some arbitrary, magically conceived cost of living? As incomes rise, so, too, will the general cost of living (mo' money chasing the same amount of goods means price hikes, thus making the cost of living higher).

FFS, how are we to define who is, and who isn't "poor?"

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 3:03:20 PM

kdsub

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No... it just means more people will be educated... I and others have been posting links back and forth with opposing views on the reasons for the cost of high education... but the bottom line is it PAYS BIG TIME for those who get the education and this fact is irrefutable. I cannot see where the existing Affirmative Action program, what we are talking about, can be the reason for higher education costs.

The cost of education cannot be laid at the feet of government... Not when the majority of higher education facilities are private with no government input or control of tuition. It is simply greed.

Butch

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 3:56:48 PM

Arturas

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quote:

but the bottom line is it PAYS BIG TIME for those who get the education and this fact is irrefutable

True. Otherwise these students would have had to work during that time otherwise. Instead, they became professional students and ate lots of pizza after classes. Soon as they started to fail they went to another school with another major and ate more pizza. Wish I had thought of that. Instead, I enlisted, went to school on the GI bill working part time, graduated and paid my taxes which paid for their pizza.

Still, I'm okay with this. I see them on the streets now more and more, on the corners with little signs asking for help. Do I help them? Not now because I already did. Were you not paying attention?

< Message edited by Arturas -- 7/7/2015 4:05:35 PM >

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 4:02:47 PM

Arturas

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It's like a gen Y I worked with for a year. I remarked one day how some people were buying houses, mortgaging them every year or so again on increased values and using them like ATMs and then handing the key over to the lender as soon as the bubble burst. He grinned and me and said how wonderful that was. It was then I knew that our younger gens were going to use the system for selfish gain, be it affirmative action or the housing bubble or disability claims for untraceable illnesses or their parents basement.

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 4:16:18 PM

kdsub

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I see something different... I see two department heads that are African Americans that took advantage of affirmative action... They are very competent and when I work with them I see colleagues and friends doing a good job with the respect of their workers.

These two are the only ones that I know personally but if they are typical it is a very good program.... But again I am not defending AF... I believe its time has past but It does show education makes a difference and worth the cost.

Butch

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RE: Affirmative Action - 7/7/2015 4:31:57 PM

HunterCA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I would much rather my taxes go for producing tax paying citizens then paying hard earned tax money for a life time of dependency.

I would cost less for scholastic aid then the other option don't you think... not just for that generation but for generations to come.

I can guarantee you that there are many excellent students out there that cannot afford advanced schooling... Rather than doctors...educators... engineers we end up with burger flipping disgruntled people on a life time of government aid... which would you rather have?

Butch

I truly belives this for the first thirty five years or so of the Great Society and it hasn't done a thing. Well, not true, it's taught minorities that they are owed something and the reason they are owed is because racism is rampant in society, so they can hate the hand that feeds them. It just doesn't work. Whatever the government pays for you get more of. Pay for broken families and hate the system along with all whites, that what you get. It's how Al Sharpten and Jessie Jackson make a living.

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