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Civil War - 7/7/2015 8:34:07 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Slave Owners

Grant owned slaves
Lee freed his inherited slaves in 1852 according to the will of his father-in-law’s wishes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_slave_owners#D

Blacks Owned Saves (43% of free blacks in SC, etc)

Northern States had slaves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Lincoln on slavery

Did express desire to export former slaves to other parts of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery

Causes of Session
* slavery
* states rights
* sectionalism and cotton trade
* protectionism
* slave power and free soil
* territorial crisis

African Americans in the CSA (numbers approximate)
* 65,000 enlistees
* 13,000 saw combat

http://blackhistorymonth2014.com/526/black-confederate-soldiers

My opinion
* Those that state the civil war was about slavery are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about states rights are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about economics are correct
* Those that want to completely abolish the heritage of the civil war and those that want compensation (a Lincoln concept initially) for slavery are wrong.
* Northern states had slaves. Even MA had one.

What is your opinion?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 8:51:46 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Not sure what you are looking for here Ken... Are you asking opinion on reparations? Other than that I can't see where there can be much disagreement with the rest of your opinions.

I would think affirmative action was the route and the purpose for reparations. Anything else would be impossible to determine and administer. I can see where some white families, mine included, benefited from slavery...but only before the war. After... they lost everything and it took generations to regain some of it back. This is how the family had to give up 4 plantations and 8000 acres of land in S. Carolina and become dirt farmers in Missouri.

The bottom line is politically reparations will not come about in my lifetime and I believe it is a dead issue.

Butch



< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/7/2015 9:00:29 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 9:13:06 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Well with all of what I consider crap going on in the nation I am really just looking for thoughts.

I have read and heard a lot lately about the subject and the differing opinions are quite intreging to me

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 9:26:09 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not sure what you are looking for here Ken... Are you asking opinion on reparations? Other than that I can't see where there can be much disagreement with the rest of your opinions.

I would think affirmative action was the route and the purpose for reparations. Anything else would be impossible to determine and administer. I can see where some white families, mine included, benefited from slavery...but only before the war. After... they lost everything and it took generations to regain some of it back. This is how the family had to give up 4 plantations and 8000 acres of land in S. Carolina and become dirt farmers in Missouri.

The bottom line is politically reparations will not come about in my lifetime and I believe it is a dead issue.

Butch
la


Many of my ancestors were still in Europe so they are exempt.
Others lived in free states so they are exempt from guilt.
The rest were on the bad side of a nearly genocidal war.
Blacks (9th and 10th cavalry) participated in this war and are a still source of pride for blacks.
On net if there is a debt here it is too me not from me.

PS I think it is time that people quit holding 150 year old grudges.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/7/2015 9:27:59 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 9:29:15 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Slave Owners

Grant owned slaves
Lee freed his inherited slaves in 1852 according to the will of his father-in-law’s wishes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_slave_owners#D

Blacks Owned Saves (43% of free blacks in SC, etc)

Northern States had slaves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Lincoln on slavery

Did express desire to export former slaves to other parts of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery

Causes of Session
* slavery
* states rights
* sectionalism and cotton trade
* protectionism
* slave power and free soil
* territorial crisis

African Americans in the CSA (numbers approximate)
* 65,000 enlistees
* 13,000 saw combat

http://blackhistorymonth2014.com/526/black-confederate-soldiers

My opinion
* Those that state the civil war was about slavery are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about states rights are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about economics are correct
* Those that want to completely abolish the heritage of the civil war and those that want compensation (a Lincoln concept initially) for slavery are wrong.
* Northern states had slaves. Even MA had one.

What is your opinion?

Damn there you go interjecting reality


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 9:33:57 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Slave Owners

Grant owned slaves
Lee freed his inherited slaves in 1852 according to the will of his father-in-law’s wishes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_slave_owners#D

Blacks Owned Saves (43% of free blacks in SC, etc)

Northern States had slaves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Lincoln on slavery

Did express desire to export former slaves to other parts of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery

Causes of Session
* slavery
* states rights
* sectionalism and cotton trade
* protectionism
* slave power and free soil
* territorial crisis

African Americans in the CSA (numbers approximate)
* 65,000 enlistees
* 13,000 saw combat

http://blackhistorymonth2014.com/526/black-confederate-soldiers

My opinion
* Those that state the civil war was about slavery are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about states rights are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about economics are correct
* Those that want to completely abolish the heritage of the civil war and those that want compensation (a Lincoln concept initially) for slavery are wrong.
* Northern states had slaves. Even MA had one.

What is your opinion?

Damn there you go interjecting reality



Agree.

So. Can we fly the flag? Ya'll?


_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 9:46:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Slave Owners

Grant owned slaves
Lee freed his inherited slaves in 1852 according to the will of his father-in-law’s wishes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_slave_owners#D

Blacks Owned Saves (43% of free blacks in SC, etc)

Northern States had slaves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Lincoln on slavery

Did express desire to export former slaves to other parts of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery

Causes of Session
* slavery
* states rights
* sectionalism and cotton trade
* protectionism
* slave power and free soil
* territorial crisis

African Americans in the CSA (numbers approximate)
* 65,000 enlistees
* 13,000 saw combat

http://blackhistorymonth2014.com/526/black-confederate-soldiers

My opinion
* Those that state the civil war was about slavery are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about states rights are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about economics are correct
* Those that want to completely abolish the heritage of the civil war and those that want compensation (a Lincoln concept initially) for slavery are wrong.
* Northern states had slaves. Even MA had one.

What is your opinion?

Damn there you go interjecting reality



Agree.

So. Can we fly the flag? Ya'll?


Never wanted to.......till now.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 9:49:15 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not sure what you are looking for here Ken... Are you asking opinion on reparations? Other than that I can't see where there can be much disagreement with the rest of your opinions.

I would think affirmative action was the route and the purpose for reparations. Anything else would be impossible to determine and administer. I can see where some white families, mine included, benefited from slavery...but only before the war. After... they lost everything and it took generations to regain some of it back. This is how the family had to give up 4 plantations and 8000 acres of land in S. Carolina and become dirt farmers in Missouri.


I have ancestors from both sides of the Civil War, so I suppose if people want to blame descendants for the sins of their ancestors, then I guess I'd end up split in two. If one wants to reduce it to the "good guys" vs. "bad guys," then some of my forebears can be found in both camps.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 9:49:21 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		LOL BamaD and Artus

You have my permission Artus Which one you gonna fly? Personally I fly only 3 flags (2 since my son retired) US, AZ and Blue Star (Son in the service flag)

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 10:02:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Ha... my 5th removed grandfather paid the price for slavery... he was ambushed and murdered by four of his own runaway slaves. They made the mistake of trying to cover their murder by making it look like he fell from his horse and was dragged to his death... But they put his right foot in the left stirrup. His sons noticed this and hunted down the slaves who confessed... you can still read the actual article in the Abbeville Banner newspaper archives. December 5th 1847

I understand he was an asshole... that seems to run in my family....

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/7/2015 10:16:04 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 10:29:35 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
My opinion
* Those that state the civil war was about slavery are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about states rights are correct
* Those that state the civil war was about economics are correct
* Those that want to completely abolish the heritage of the civil war and those that want compensation (a Lincoln concept initially) for slavery are wrong.
* Northern states had slaves. Even MA had one.

What is your opinion?


Another dimension of Civil War history which is also interesting is not so much related to the causes of it, but also in why it lasted for as long as it did and why was it so bloody and vicious.

Economically, industrially, and militarily, the North clearly outmatched the South in terms of resources and manpower. Once the Union blockade and most of the major Confederate ports were captured by 1862, the South was cut off from the rest of the world. The Union probably could have won the war rather quickly. Even after Vicksburg and Gettysburg, when the South probably should have realized that they had no chance of winning, they just kept on fighting. They may have been hoping for a political victory.

While there was significant opposition to the war in the Northern states, I think the South truly underestimated the resolve and commitment many Northerners had towards ending slavery. That's what kept Lincoln in office and gave men like Sherman and Grant license to do whatever was necessary to end the war. They weren't screwing around, and they were way past the point where the South could just cut a deal. Unconditional surrender was their only option.

As for the Northern states, yes, they had slaves, but in much smaller numbers than in the South. At the beginning, all of the colonies had slaves, but slavery was not quite so widespread as it later came to be. That was the major problem and what added fuel to the fire. It was the expansion of slavery that caused the dissension which would ultimately erupt into the Civil War. The Northerners had slaves, but they wanted slavery to be phased out, while the Southerners kept aggressively pursuing the expansion of slavery across the US. That's why things were getting so nasty and why the Civil War turned out to be such a bloody affair in the end.

If it was something as small as Shay's Rebellion or the Whiskey Rebellion, then one might note the complexities of the politics and the underlying causes - though it wouldn't have been viewed as such a large event in our history. But more Americans were lost in the Civil War than all other wars combined. That's why we can't forget or abolish the history of the Civil War (which I don't think anyone is advocating anyway). I don't want to see our Civil War Battlefields or Monuments turned into casinos or condos either.







(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 10:33:15 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Well with all of what I consider crap going on in the nation I am really just looking for thoughts.

I have read and heard a lot lately about the subject and the differing opinions are quite intreging to me


history is factually never what it appears to be.



1. Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission, observed General Stonewall Jackson’s occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862. He wrote:

Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [of Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie knives, dirks, etc. … and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army (in Barrow, et al., 2001).

This description of men wearing shell jackets or coats and carrying weapons suggests soldiers. It does not appear indicative of cooks or musicians or body servants. Of course, we cannot know by the description, but it suggests 3,000 armed black Confederate soldiers.

2. 2. Report of Frederick Douglass

“There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels” (In Williams “On Black Confederates”).

Douglass’s report is clear: Black Southerners were fighting “as real soldiers.”

3. Monuments to Black Confederates – The Moses Ezekiel sculpture in Arlington Cemetery to the Confederate dead – his circular frieze clearly shows one of the Confederate soldiers as a black man in uniform and under arms.

4. Individual witnesses to black Confederates. See the following link for much more information: http://www.rebelgray.com/blacksincombat.htm

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 10:53:13 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline 		I had to memorize this when I was a kid:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 11:45:19 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
yeh sounds like you went through some pretty heavy indoctrination. They like to get em young.


There is a definite pattern however that precisely matches when the bonds come due and new loans have to be secured.





the real irony of course is that anywhere the british go flat ass broke is soon to follow.


One nation under the dollar!

I dont buy into any of that fluffy pillow talk they tried to pound into my head as a youngster.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Civil War - 7/7/2015 11:52:48 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		How can I claim with certainty that I am correct?

Simple.

Governments operate on 2 principles.

1) Money

2) Power

Everything else is mere accessory.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 1:04:57 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
A couple of interesting tidbits reflective of Northern attitudes toward blacks:

The confederate Congress specified that black soldiers were to receive the same pay as the white soldiers. The Union army’s black soldiers were paid less than the white soldiers... Equal pay for both races in the federal army did not come into effect until June 1864. The Confederate Army also authorized a salary for black musicians in 1862.

Additionally, the Emancipation Proclamation affected only the slave states in revolt. Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and Delaware were slave states that remained loyal to the Union.

The Confederate Constitution banned the overseas slave trade, and permitted Confederate states to abolish slavery within their borders if they wanted to do so. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1868, 3 years after the war. Thus Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and Delaware still had slaves.

Source

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/8/2015 1:05:37 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 2:38:51 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		The Emancipation Proclamation could arguably be considered political overreach. It was codified by the 13th Amendment in 1865. However, it is of note that criminals convicted by a court could be considered slaves. To my knowledge, no one was ever sold into slavery following a crime but I believe it could be a possibility. Hope no one ever does.

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 2:44:39 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

The Emancipation Proclamation could arguably be considered political overreach. It was codified by the 13th Amendment in 1865. However, it is of note that criminals convicted by a court could be considered slaves. To my knowledge, no one was ever sold into slavery following a crime but I believe it could be a possibility. Hope no one ever does.

Well, I would have to agree with you insofar as "sold into slavery" is concerned. But I have no fundamental objection to felony offenders being put to hard work to earn their keep, whether they like it or not, instead of burdening the society they victimized with the expense.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 4:37:04 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

The Emancipation Proclamation could arguably be considered political overreach. It was codified by the 13th Amendment in 1865. However, it is of note that criminals convicted by a court could be considered slaves. To my knowledge, no one was ever sold into slavery following a crime but I believe it could be a possibility. Hope no one ever does.

Well, I would have to agree with you insofar as "sold into slavery" is concerned. But I have no fundamental objection to felony offenders being put to hard work to earn their keep, whether they like it or not, instead of burdening the society they victimized with the expense.

K.



I worked with prisoners as has my wife and sister. For me they took care of a lot of meanial labor such as weed control and labor pool building/maintaining parks, medians, etc. My wife worked at a rest area. My sister uses them in service of the county. They save thousands of dollars in taxpayer money. In exchange in all 3 cases in 3 different states, they got a day off their sentence for a days labor. In my case they also got $1 per day for spending money in the commissary. They all had restrictions like we can't give them a soda or food or cigarettes, but that was a part of their agreement to go to work.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 5:44:35 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Well with all of what I consider crap going on in the nation I am really just looking for thoughts.

I have read and heard a lot lately about the subject and the differing opinions are quite intreging to me

Crap? You mean over the Confederate flag?

Since you and your buddy like "interjecting reality," let's have a look:
The first Confederate national flag was widely disliked for a number of reasons (primarily its aesthetic resemblance to the United States flag and its attendant confusion with the U.S. flag on the battlefield), so on 1 May 1863 the Confederate States of America adopted a new national flag known as “the Stainless Banner,” said by its designer to represent the “supremacy of the white man”:

Our idea is simply to combine the present battle-flag with a pure white standard sheet; our Southern Cross, blue on a red field, to take the place on the white flag that is occupied by the blue union in the old United States flag, or the St. George’s cross in the British flag. As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.


[The second Confederate national flag design created its own set of problematic issues, namely that (especially when the flag hung limp in windless conditions) its canton could be obscured, making it appear to be an all-white flag of truce. To ameliorate this problem, a red vertical bar was added to the right-hand side of the white field, and this design (known as “the Blood-Stained Banner”) was adopted as the third Confederate national flag on 4 March 1865]

It is true that for several decades after the Civil War, the Confederate battle flag was not widely perceived as a negative symbol. Its use was largely limited to historical ceremonies associated with veterans’ events and war memorials; the flag did not become the symbol most prominently associated with the Confederacy until several decades after the Civil War ended, and it was not widely perceived as a politically polarizing symbol until it was appropriated by segregationist politicians and groups in the middle of the twentieth century.

However, the fact remains that the Confederate battle flag has long since become the pre-eminent symbol of the Confederacy and what it stood for, and across the span of several decades it has been co-opted by segregationist and white supremacist groups such as the Dixiecrats, the KKK, and the Aryan Nation. Certainly one can be a racist or a white supremacist without associating himself with “Southern Pride” or a Confederate battle flag, but for better or worse, no one group is any more “authorized” to use the Confederate battle flag as their symbol than another: the Confederate government and its military forces ceased to exist 150 years ago and therefore have no say or control over the usage of the Southern Cross.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans may sincerely object to the Confederate battle flag’s use by Neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other extremist groups, and perhaps some of the men who fought and died for the Confederacy would as well if they were alive today. But just as with the swastika, it’s likely to be a very, very long time before that symbol can be reclaimed and regarded in anything approaching a neutral manner, and probably not until the social issues underlying the public perception of that symbol have been more thoroughly canvassed.

Read more at http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/28/confederate-flag-history/#IrxbYRSK033D4MRu.99

THAT'S what all the fuss is about.

So yeah, take the flag down.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 20
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