quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

Your lack of historical knowledge...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

It's time wealthy westerners stopped shitting their pants over what happens in the Middle East and just leave it be.

We've had the odd terrorist attack, 60 or so in the UK, fewer in the USA (not counting 9/11 which was an anomaly which can't be repeated), and a handful in the European mainland. In fact, if you're in the USA, you're twice as likely to be killed by right-wing terrorists than Islamic terrorists....

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0

http://time.com/3934980/right-wing-extremists-white-terrorism-islamist-jihadi-dangerous/

http://www.refinery29.com/2015/06/89683/homegrown-terrorism-statistics

Few if any of the Islamic terrorist attacks would have occurred if we had kept out of North East Africa and the Middle East. Contrary to what the cowards wetting their pants in fear on Fox News are telling you ISIS doesn't give a crap about what goes on outside of its territory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrchofDrk

Turn the sand where they live to glass and be done with them I say. Innocents may die. But that's their tough shit. It will put the fear of God into them

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


He'll never stop shitting his pants about them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


He'll never stop shitting his pants about them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

Your lack of historical knowledge...

My historical knowledge makes you look like a piker eh bruv

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

It's time wealthy westerners stopped shitting their pants over what happens in the Middle East and just leave it be.

We've had the odd terrorist attack, 60 or so in the UK, fewer in the USA (not counting 9/11 which was an anomaly which can't be repeated), and a handful in the European mainland. In fact, if you're in the USA, you're twice as likely to be killed by right-wing terrorists than Islamic terrorists....

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0

http://time.com/3934980/right-wing-extremists-white-terrorism-islamist-jihadi-dangerous/

http://www.refinery29.com/2015/06/89683/homegrown-terrorism-statistics

Few if any of the Islamic terrorist attacks would have occurred if we had kept out of North East Africa and the Middle East. Contrary to what the cowards wetting their pants in fear on Fox News are telling you ISIS doesn't give a crap about what goes on outside of its territory.

Problem with this is that they see their divine mission is to convert everyone. Also terrorists increase their activity, it doesn't go away. This is particularly true when all it costs them is the suicide troops they send in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek
You might want to read this sometime. Or maybe this. The Arab world accounts for a small number of Muslims. The most populous Muslim nations are places that are not at war or bear any aggression to the West at all.

Your fear of Islam might well subside if you learn more about it. This isn't a left/right argument but a simple case of looking at the math.

quote:

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
...

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.


The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.



Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.



Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle). According to the verse, Allah will allow the disabled into Paradise, but will provide a larger reward to those who are able to kill others in his cause.



Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?



Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

...

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The point you are making is so prescient yet often goes unmentioned in discussions of terrorism. Using a simplistic model of terrorists (eg. they are all religious whack jobs who can't wait to die and meet Allah) doesn't advance the discussion an iota. It seems to make our own religious and far Right whack jobs happy - they are fondest of peddling this myth*. But it doesn't help us understand the phenomenon, nor does it point the way to any potential resolution.

Terrorism doesn't occur in a vacuum. There are solid historical social and political reasons why terrorism is generated and why it seems to thrive in certain situations. Terrorism cannot be successful unless it has a solid basis of support among a population, usually a population disaffected or alienated from political power, most often through hostile foreign military interventions and/or occupations. The roots of IS appeal to Iraq's Sunnis lie in the appalling sectarian (anti-Sunni) policies of the Maliki Govt, in the invasion by the West, in the chaos and corruption that ensued. The Sunni population of Iraq fear the central Govt and the murderous Shia militias that Govt deploys to keep the Sunnis under its thumb. For them IS with all its faults represents a preferable alternative that offers some security. It is a measure of how bad Maliki's sectarianism was that an organistation as brutal and bloodthirsty as IS could be seen by some as a preferable alternative.

If this analysis has merit, then it follows that the solution cannot be found in military strategies alone but in separating the support base from the terrorists. That means identifying the social political and historical reasons underlying the conflicts, and developing strategies that deal with those issues as part of a comprehensive response to terrorism. Without this approach and understanding strategies to deal with the issue of 'terrorism' are destined to fail.

All the appeals to turn Iraq into a desert of glass, to bomb IS back into the Stone Age, for full scale military campaigns by Western armies are just so much hot air blown out by people who have little or no appreciation of terrorism or the particular situation in Iraq/Syria. These tactics can't work and won't work. They appeal to simple minds seeking simple solutions, minds that are unwilling or unable to appreciate that Western military interventions in the ME are as much a cause of the problems as any other single factor.

* Perhaps because they - our religious fundamentalists and far Right wing bigots - are the elements in the West that most closely parallel Islamist terrorists.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Further, many of these places you speak of that are majority Muslim, practice some version of Islamic law which can mean things like, women are severely punished for being raped. Or gays face the death penalty, or other forms of punishment etc

Its not pleasant, despite the ignorant propaganda so many leftists like to regurgitate

quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Further, many of these places you speak of that are majority Muslim, practice some version of Islamic law which can mean things like, women are severely punished for being raped. Or gays face the death penalty, or other forms of punishment etc

Its not pleasant, despite the ignorant propaganda so many leftists like to regurgitate

I am not confident that I know everything. I am confident that people who have studied this know more about it than those who don't.

You've quoted a load of verses from the Quran, well....

http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm

...isn't the USA majority Christian? Republicans especially...

"Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock" Psalm 137:9

"I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be kept silent." 1 Timothy 2:12

"And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and all shall eat the flesh of their neighbours in the siege, and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them." Jeremiah 19:9

"Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is to your credit if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly." 1 Peter 2:18

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22

Yeah, there might be loads of horrible shit in the Quran if you're gay, or a woman, etc. But the same goes for the Bible. And there is this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Ku_Klux_Klan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph

Would it be absolutely ludicrous to hold the average US Christian to account for the actions of those terrorists? Of course. But you're doing that to what you call "Islamists".

If it isn't fear that motivates you then it's basically race/culture hate, which puts you in the same camp as those Christian terrorists.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

(1) How many troops and how much money should the US spend fighting ISIS? What's the total cost you want US Tax Payers to pay? $500 Billion?

(2) While we're fighting ISIS, how much money do you want the US government to spend deporting potential immigrants? Do you want the current budget doubled to $40 Billion Dollars a year?

How will items (1) and (2) affect US economic growth?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Yes, but this one has oil.

The methods ISIS use are standard definition of terrorism though.