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RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 8:33:56 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
quote:

2. Limiting naturalization is not the same as limiting immigration.


Tourist are not immigrants. Immigrants had a protocol to follow to naturalization. This starts with the naturalization act or 1790.


The concept of tourist didn't even arise until much later. In 1790, everybody who came to the USA (at least voluntarily) was automatically an immigrant. The Naturalization Act dealt only with naturalization, not with immigration.

As a matter of fact, that's actually still in today's law - we simply added tourists, students, and other non-immigrants as exceptions.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 261
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 8:42:43 AM   
Thegunnysez


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Joined: 8/17/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
quote:

2. Limiting naturalization is not the same as limiting immigration.


Tourist are not immigrants. Immigrants had a protocol to follow to naturalization. This starts with the naturalization act or 1790.


The concept of tourist didn't even arise until much later. In 1790, everybody who came to the USA (at least voluntarily) was automatically an immigrant. The Naturalization Act dealt only with naturalization, not with immigration.

As a matter of fact, that's actually still in today's law - we simply added tourists, students, and other non-immigrants as exceptions.




Alexis de Tocqueville was a tourist not an immigrant.
The naturalization acts absolutely did deal with immigration. They gave pretty explicit description of who could and who could not enter the country. They were also quite clear about who could become a citizen.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 262
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 8:51:00 AM   
cadenas


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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:




25,000. Exactly. Because that's the quota for Mexico (same as for any other country, whether Liechtenstein or China). And you needed qualifications; most Mexicans aren't eligible.


Do you have a cite for this?


Immigration and Nationality Act, Sec. 202. [8 U.S.C. 1152] . No country can receive more than 7% of the worldwide quota. Which works out to 25,000 (approximately; I made a mistake when I said "exactly").

There are already far more than 25,000 people waiting in line, which explains why the legal immigration process takes up to 25 years and "get in at the end of the line" is a ridiculous proposal".

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 263
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 9:06:44 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
quote:

2. Limiting naturalization is not the same as limiting immigration.


Tourist are not immigrants. Immigrants had a protocol to follow to naturalization. This starts with the naturalization act or 1790.


The concept of tourist didn't even arise until much later. In 1790, everybody who came to the USA (at least voluntarily) was automatically an immigrant. The Naturalization Act dealt only with naturalization, not with immigration.

As a matter of fact, that's actually still in today's law - we simply added tourists, students, and other non-immigrants as exceptions.




Alexis de Tocqueville was a tourist not an immigrant.
The naturalization acts absolutely did deal with immigration. They gave pretty explicit description of who could and who could not enter the country. They were also quite clear about who could become a citizen.


Cite, please.

As far as I know, until well after the civil war, the USA didn't have any restrictions on who could enter the country. You simply walked down the gang plank from whatever boat you arrived on (or walked across the land borders with, at the time, British or Spanish or French territories), and were in the country.

The first law that restricted immigration was the Page Act of 1875.

Given that fact, it isn't wrong, but rather simply meaningless to describe Alexis de Toqueville as "tourist".

The restrictions in the 1790 act applied only to who could become a citizen, not who could enter the country or settle.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 264
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 10:12:03 AM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline 		Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof on application to any common law Court of record in any one of the States wherein he shall have resided for the term of one year at least, and making proof to the satisfaction of such Court that he is a person of good character, and taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by law to support the Constitution of the United States, which Oath or Affirmation such Court shall administer, and the Clerk of such Court shall record such Application, and the proceedings thereon; and thereupon such person shall be considered as a Citizen of the United States.

http://www.indiana.edu/~kdhist/H105-documents-web/week08/naturalization1790.html

The 1790 statute seems pretty clear that non white people may not enter or become citizens.

The 1802 act:



"The United States Congress passed the Naturalization Law of 1802 on April 14, 1802 (2 Stat. 153) that directed the clerk of the court to record the entry of all aliens into the United States. The clerk collected information including the applicant's name, birthplace, age, nation of allegiance, country of emigration, and place of intended settlement, and granted each applicant a certificate that could be exhibited to the court as evidence of time of arrival in the United States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Law_of_1802

The 1802 act is pretty clear about the sort of data needed to validate one's intention to become a citizen.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 265
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 10:14:34 AM   
Thegunnysez


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quote:



Given that fact, it isn't wrong, but rather simply meaningless to describe Alexis de Toqueville as "tourist".


How else might we describe him? He was not a citizen. He had no intention of staying. He was nothing more than a tourist who's observations have been preserved.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 266
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 11:13:49 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:




25,000. Exactly. Because that's the quota for Mexico (same as for any other country, whether Liechtenstein or China). And you needed qualifications; most Mexicans aren't eligible.


Do you have a cite for this?


Immigration and Nationality Act, Sec. 202. [8 U.S.C. 1152] . No country can receive more than 7% of the worldwide quota. Which works out to 25,000 (approximately; I made a mistake when I said "exactly").

There are already far more than 25,000 people waiting in line, which explains why the legal immigration process takes up to 25 years and "get in at the end of the line" is a ridiculous proposal".


So you favor rewarding illegal immigration, which putting them ahead of anyone who followed the rules is. If it is ridiculous to make them get at the end of the line what is it to ask people to let illegals cut in front of them and make their wait even longer. It literally penalizes people for following the rules. Do you want to just throw the borders open.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 267
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 12:36:20 PM   
itsSIRtou


Posts: 836
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:




25,000. Exactly. Because that's the quota for Mexico (same as for any other country, whether Liechtenstein or China). And you needed qualifications; most Mexicans aren't eligible.


Do you have a cite for this?


Immigration and Nationality Act, Sec. 202. [8 U.S.C. 1152] . No country can receive more than 7% of the worldwide quota. Which works out to 25,000 (approximately; I made a mistake when I said "exactly").

There are already far more than 25,000 people waiting in line, which explains why the legal immigration process takes up to 25 years and "get in at the end of the line" is a ridiculous proposal".


So you favor rewarding illegal immigration, which putting them ahead of anyone who followed the rules is. If it is ridiculous to make them get at the end of the line what is it to ask people to let illegals cut in front of them and make their wait even longer. It literally penalizes people for following the rules. Do you want to just throw the borders open.


how about this novel approach?

Fix the ENTIRE immigration process so that not only the people who are following the ancient current rules don't have to wait 25 years, but ALSO the give the illegal people already here a path to do the same with the same speed. And the illegals will still be after the current applicants.

If all ur going to do is try to make everybody continue to work with the same system that is CLEARLY not working well enough for todays changing world, then we deserve to have the same mess we have now and will continue to have, trump wall or no wall. I think the definition of insanity applies here. (no sanity, still not u. LOL...)

Because right now whats proposed is like stuffing 5 pounds of sausage in a 1 pound casing. and not expecting the business wolves waiting for the leftovers to not continue to get fat on it.




< Message edited by itsSIRtou -- 8/25/2015 1:33:26 PM >

_____________________________

I will allways be a knight, instead of a prince.

What would the internet be like if we couldn't say trump is a moron?

The Republican party complains government doesnt work for people, and then makes darn sure it cannot.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 268
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 1:08:49 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
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quote:


So you favor rewarding illegal immigration,


We are all aware that illegal immigration is a misdemeanor? We are also aware that hiring an illegal alien is a felony. It would seem counter-intuitive to focus one's attention on the misdemeanor rather than the felony. I have noticed that the color of those who commit the misdemeanors is typically not white while the felons are. Why one would choose to carp about the one and not the other might speak directly to their motives. None can disagree that should the draconian penalties called for in the case of the felony be applied forthwith none would dare hire an illegal alien.


quote:

which putting them ahead of anyone who followed the rules is.



That is exactly what happened to the founders. They refused to follow the rules and the king rewarded them.


quote:

If it is ridiculous to make them get at the end of the line what is it to ask people to let illegals cut in front of them and make their wait even longer.


Since the illegal does not apply for a visa or a green card or citizenship how does that slow down those in line?






quote:

It literally penalizes people for following the rules.


The Tories wrote many books about how upset they were that the terrorist/freedom fighters were rewarded for not following the rules and how poorly they were treated by the king (and the terrorist/freedom fighters) for following the rules.


quote:

Do you want to just throw the borders open.


The boarders have not been "open" since the Naturalization Act of 1802.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 269
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 1:46:20 PM   
itsSIRtou


Posts: 836
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:


So you favor rewarding illegal immigration,


We are all aware that illegal immigration is a misdemeanor? We are also aware that hiring an illegal alien is a felony. It would seem counter-intuitive to focus one's attention on the misdemeanor rather than the felony. I have noticed that the color of those who commit the misdemeanors is typically not white while the felons are. Why one would choose to carp about the one and not the other might speak directly to their motives. None can disagree that should the draconian penalties called for in the case of the felony be applied forthwith none would dare hire an illegal alien.




thanks for saying what I wanted to say awhile ago. I would of been called out for race baiting or some fool thing for saying it first.

They are willing to go after the people least likely to be able to fight them, and hasn't said a word if any at all about the business people (who contribute to the GOP campaigns.) who hire them anyway.

Every white dominated political party throughout history has used immigrants as a reason to put them in power. I said it earlier, the GOP is just using immigrants as a smokescreen to hide the fact the rest of their policies still suck.

< Message edited by itsSIRtou -- 8/25/2015 1:51:35 PM >

_____________________________

I will allways be a knight, instead of a prince.

What would the internet be like if we couldn't say trump is a moron?

The Republican party complains government doesnt work for people, and then makes darn sure it cannot.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 270
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 1:58:18 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:


thanks for saying what I wanted to say awhile ago. I would of been called out for race baiting or some fool thing for saying it first.


One should never be hesitant about telling the truth.





quote:

Every white dominated political party throughout history has used immigrants as a reason to put them in power.



Skin color has nothing to do with ones ability to be unkind.


quote:

I said it earlier, the GOP is just using immigrants as a smokescreen to hide the fact the rest of their policies still suck.



There is as little difference in political parties in the U.S. as there is in Russia.

(in reply to itsSIRtou)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:16:53 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So you favor rewarding illegal immigration, which putting them ahead of anyone who followed the rules is. If it is ridiculous to make them get at the end of the line what is it to ask people to let illegals cut in front of them and make their wait even longer. It literally penalizes people for following the rules. Do you want to just throw the borders open.


That is EXACTLY what many people want.
If that is the case, let's just do away with all legal immigration and let everyone from everywhere in the world,come into this country and live here.
Why stop at any point?
We need no end point.
Let's throw out the need for having a passport to come here also, while we are at it.

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/25/2015 7:19:38 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 272
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:24:18 PM   
Thegunnysez


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Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:


That is EXACTLY what many people want.


This is the first I have heard of this...who has called for open boarders?


(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 273
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:25:54 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:


That is EXACTLY what many people want.


This is the first I have heard of this...who has called for open boarders?


I don't have the time nor interest to engage you in a 30 page debate on every word that I type.
We have open borders right now, for what the borders are worth.
Either we have borders or we do not, either we enforce immigration laws or we don't.
It's not that complicated.


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/25/2015 7:31:52 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 274
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:37:14 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:

I don't have the time nor interest to engage you in a 30 page debate on every word that I type.


Well perhaps when you have more time you might tell us just who wants "open boarders" because this is the first I have heard of it.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 275
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:37:22 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:




25,000. Exactly. Because that's the quota for Mexico (same as for any other country, whether Liechtenstein or China). And you needed qualifications; most Mexicans aren't eligible.


Do you have a cite for this?


Immigration and Nationality Act, Sec. 202. [8 U.S.C. 1152] . No country can receive more than 7% of the worldwide quota. Which works out to 25,000 (approximately; I made a mistake when I said "exactly").

There are already far more than 25,000 people waiting in line, which explains why the legal immigration process takes up to 25 years and "get in at the end of the line" is a ridiculous proposal".


So you favor rewarding illegal immigration, which putting them ahead of anyone who followed the rules is. If it is ridiculous to make them get at the end of the line what is it to ask people to let illegals cut in front of them and make their wait even longer. It literally penalizes people for following the rules. Do you want to just throw the borders open.


how about this novel approach?

Fix the ENTIRE immigration process so that not only the people who are following the ancient current rules don't have to wait 25 years, but ALSO the give the illegal people already here a path to do the same with the same speed. And the illegals will still be after the current applicants.

If all ur going to do is try to make everybody continue to work with the same system that is CLEARLY not working well enough for todays changing world, then we deserve to have the same mess we have now and will continue to have, trump wall or no wall. I think the definition of insanity applies here. (no sanity, still not u. LOL...)

Because right now whats proposed is like stuffing 5 pounds of sausage in a 1 pound casing. and not expecting the business wolves waiting for the leftovers to not continue to get fat on it.




I never said we couldn't look at improving the system.
Problem is that if we let everyone in who wants in, and let them in right now we would have to large a segment of the population that would try to change us into a different country. Any system we use cannot allow illegals to take precedence over people who have come here legally. "Fixing" the time delays and dealing with illegals are two different things, and if we try to "fix" it with a primary goal to making things easier on illegals we will only make it worse.
Do you suggest, because it sounds like you do, that we get rid of quotas and let everyone in. If not please explain what you do want.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to itsSIRtou)
Profile   Post #: 276
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:41:56 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline


quote:

either we enforce immigration laws or we don't.
It's not that complicated.



We are all aware that illegal immigration is a misdemeanor? We are also aware that hiring an illegal alien is a felony. It would seem counter-intuitive to focus one's attention on the misdemeanor rather than the felony. I have noticed that the color of those who commit the misdemeanors is typically not white while the felons are. Why one would choose to carp about the one and not the other might speak directly to their motives. None can disagree that should the draconian penalties called for in the case of the felony be applied forthwith none would dare hire an illegal alien.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 277
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:41:59 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:


So you favor rewarding illegal immigration,


We are all aware that illegal immigration is a misdemeanor? We are also aware that hiring an illegal alien is a felony. It would seem counter-intuitive to focus one's attention on the misdemeanor rather than the felony. I have noticed that the color of those who commit the misdemeanors is typically not white while the felons are. Why one would choose to carp about the one and not the other might speak directly to their motives. None can disagree that should the draconian penalties called for in the case of the felony be applied forthwith none would dare hire an illegal alien.




thanks for saying what I wanted to say awhile ago. I would of been called out for race baiting or some fool thing for saying it first.

They are willing to go after the people least likely to be able to fight them, and hasn't said a word if any at all about the business people (who contribute to the GOP campaigns.) who hire them anyway.

Every white dominated political party throughout history has used immigrants as a reason to put them in power. I said it earlier, the GOP is just using immigrants as a smokescreen to hide the fact the rest of their policies still suck.

Virtually every conservative on here has come out in favor of enforcing laws against hiring illegals, even of increasing the penalties if enforcing the current ones don't work. Leftist on here ignore that so they can pretend we just don't like
A immigrants
or
B Mexicans

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to itsSIRtou)
Profile   Post #: 278
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:46:45 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:

Virtually every conservative on here has come out in favor of enforcing laws against hiring illegals,


Please show us yours.





quote:

even of increasing the penalties if enforcing the current ones don't work.


What are the current penalities?





quote:

Leftist on here ignore that so they can pretend we just don't like
A immigrants
or
B Mexicans



We are all aware that illegal immigration is a misdemeanor? We are also aware that hiring an illegal alien is a felony. It would seem counter-intuitive to focus one's attention on the misdemeanor rather than the felony. I have noticed that the color of those who commit the misdemeanors is typically not white while the felons are. Why one would choose to carp about the one and not the other might speak directly to their motives. None can disagree that should the draconian penalties called for in the case of the felony be applied forthwith none would dare hire an illegal alien.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/25/2015 7:47:02 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:


That is EXACTLY what many people want.


This is the first I have heard of this...who has called for open boarders?


I don't have the time nor interest to engage you in a 30 page debate on every word that I type.
We have open borders right now, for what the borders are worth.
Either we have borders or we do not, either we enforce immigration laws or we don't.
It's not that complicated.


Everyone who says that there is no difference between legal and illegal immigrants is calling for open borders whether they know it or not.
Everyone who wants to fast track (provide a path to citizenship) is calling for open borders whether they admit it to themselves or not.
Everyone who wants to give illegals all the rights of citizenship is calling for open borders whether they admit it or not.
Everyone who supports sanctuary cities (or denies they exist) is calling for open borders whether they know it or not.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 280
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