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RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 7:19:15 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Yeah That one is to big for anyone. Cause then we can start other forms of citizenship qualifications.

Doesn't mean that CPS can't step in and take the child to protect it while the parents are being detained and deported.

you mean apart from the little inconvenience of the constitution?

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 7:49:27 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Doesn't mean that CPS can't step in and take the child to protect it while the parents are being detained and deported.

so then the US will keep the kids and put them into foster care? do you realize just how much that would cost (assuming you could find enough foster parents & more social workers), in addition to the cost of deporting the parents, the jail (oh, I meant "detainment") cost, the court time cost, public defender costs, transportation back to their country.. Doesn't it occur to anyone that it would be considerably less costly to allow the parents to become legal residents and take care of their own kids?

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 8:27:35 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Doesn't mean that CPS can't step in and take the child to protect it while the parents are being detained and deported.

so then the US will keep the kids and put them into foster care? do you realize just how much that would cost (assuming you could find enough foster parents & more social workers), in addition to the cost of deporting the parents, the jail (oh, I meant "detainment") cost, the court time cost, public defender costs, transportation back to their country.. Doesn't it occur to anyone that it would be considerably less costly to allow the parents to become legal residents and take care of their own kids?

Yep, jump them to the head of the line and put an end to legal immigration.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/18/2015 8:48:06 PM   
Thegunnysez


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quote:


Yep, jump them to the head of the line and put an end to legal immigration.


How long is the line for legal immigration? Or more specifically how many Mexicans are allowed to immigrate to the U.S. annually?

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 1:02:48 AM   
tweakabelle


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What is it about topics like immigration and race that seems to bring out the inner fascist in so many on the Right? Please note that I am not saying all on the Right, just 'many' as evidenced in some of the posts above.

We have a parallel phenomenon here in Australia, where politicians vie to be the most brutal towards refugees. There is an outcry from the Right in the UK and France too on these issues. So it doesn't seem to be specific to any one country. People who like to position themselves as defenders of liberty and freedom suddenly call for Iron Curtain style borders and demand lethal consequences for any one who tries to get past the cordon sanitaire. Is it that they dislike sharing the privileges of Aussie/US/UK/EU residence and citizenship with any one else? Or merely those with darker skin tones than their own? Is it that they feel threatened by those different to themselves?

It is a feature of this discussion here that so many are so ill-informed, sometimes almost hysterically so. Destitute refugees arriving by boat are demonised with a large section of the population believing they are security threats and terrorists. Ask someone what an illegal immigrant looks like and you will invariably get either an Arab or Asian stereotype as a response. Yet the largest number of illegal immigrants here are from the UK, and seem to get a free pass ..... not difficult to work out why is it?

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 3:23:03 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

What is it about topics like immigration and race that seems to bring out the inner fascist in so many on the Right? Please note that I am not saying all on the Right, just 'many' as evidenced in some of the posts above.

We have a parallel phenomenon here in Australia, where politicians vie to be the most brutal towards refugees. There is an outcry from the Right in the UK and France too on these issues. So it doesn't seem to be specific to any one country. People who like to position themselves as defenders of liberty and freedom suddenly call for Iron Curtain style borders and demand lethal consequences for any one who tries to get past the cordon sanitaire. Is it that they dislike sharing the privileges of Aussie/US/UK/EU residence and citizenship with any one else? Or merely those with darker skin tones than their own? Is it that they feel threatened by those different to themselves?

It is a feature of this discussion here that so many are so ill-informed, sometimes almost hysterically so. Destitute refugees arriving by boat are demonised with a large section of the population believing they are security threats and terrorists. Ask someone what an illegal immigrant looks like and you will invariably get either an Arab or Asian stereotype as a response. Yet the largest number of illegal immigrants here are from the UK, and seem to get a free pass ..... not difficult to work out why is it?


I take it you are in favor of abolition of all immigration laws, create just one country that encompasses the entire earth, one government to make all your decisions on immigration for you (like the UN). Of course that would require one language, may I suggest Tigrinya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigrinya_language) be adopted, one currency, maybe the Lire, one set of driving rules (US), one educational system, etc.


Personally I am in favor of people following the laws of the countries that they are in (or about to enter). Does that make me a facist? no, I believe in legal immigration. But if you fail to accomplish that, then it should be criminal.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 3:31:17 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Yet the largest number of illegal immigrants here are from the UK, and seem to get a free pass ..... not difficult to work out why is it?


They're not immigrants, though - they're 'ex-pats'. People from the UK are never called 'immigrants'.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 4:30:55 AM   
DaddySatyr


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I have one objection to Mr. Trump's plan: What to do about "anchor babies".

While some people insist that the constitution does not guarantee "natural born" = "citizen", I disagree. However, I will grant that premise for the purposes of this post (sort of).

Whether the constitution guarantees it or not, I think it has become a de facto rule, based upon 237 years of tradition. If people are sure it is not guaranteed by the constitution, I favor a constitutional amendment (of course, the PPL destroyers will never let that happen).

So, now that we've defined that portion of citizenship, what do we do about illegals that come here just to birth their babies here as a method of gaining their own "legal status"? Simple. Their children are citizens. They are not. Good-bye madre y padre!

When mom and dad get caught and it's time for them to be deported, they get offered a choice: "Take your child with you, to raise as you see fit. If you don't want to do that, we'll keep that American citizen and put them into foster care ... a pathway to adoption".

I think the idea of "natural born" is inviolable and should be, but I also believe that it shouldn't be yet another scam used by criminals to gain what they can't, through legal channels.



Michael


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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 6:13:10 AM   
Thegunnysez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


So, now that we've defined that portion of citizenship, what do we do about illegals that come here just to birth their babies here as a method of gaining their own "legal status"? Simple. Their children are citizens. They are not. Good-bye madre y padre!


Isn't that the current law?

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 9:26:43 AM   
Lucylastic


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THis is from MSNBC< so the leaning is left, but the video is real
Trump questions the legality of the Constitution

A few days ago, Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump unveiled an actual immigration policy, which included a striking provision: “End birthright citizenship.”

As regular readers know, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution doesn’t leave much in the way of wiggle room: the rights of American citizenship are given to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States.” The principle of birthright citizenship has been upheld by the Supreme Court many times since its enactment following the Civil War.

But Trump has a problem with the constitutional language – and soon after, roughly half of the GOP presidential field expressed their own opposition to the 14th Amendment’s guarantee.

There are all kinds of angles to a story like this – legal, political, social, and moral – but it’s also hard not to wonder about the practical considerations. If the Constitution says those born in the United States are citizens of the United States, what exactly does Trump intend to do about it? Last night, as Politico reported, the answer came into sharper focus.
Under the 14th Amendment, [Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly] told Trump on “The O’Reilly Factor,” mass deportations of so-called birthright citizens cannot happen.

Trump disagreed, and said that “many lawyers are saying that’s not the way it is in terms of this.”
As ridiculous as this may seem, don’t just roll your eyes at this and move on. Trump’s wrong, but his argument is poised to become a lot more common.

Indeed, many assumed that Trump envisions a constitutional amendment to end birthright citizenship. He does not. What Trump actually has in mind is a court fight in which he and his lawyers challenge the legality of constitutional language.

Politico’s headline, “Trump to O’Reilly: The 14th Amendment is unconstitutional,” is probably excessive, but only a little.

There’s an apparent contradiction at the heart of Trump’s immigration plan: he says he’d never break up a family, but he also says literally every undocumented immigrant must be rounded up and deported. Since some undocumented parents have U.S.-born children, those tenets are in conflict: a Trump administration would either separate children from their families or it would end up deporting American citizens.

Except, Trump rejects the contradiction, because as far as he’s concerned, people born in the United States aren’t necessarily citizens of the United States. From the Politico piece:
“What happens is, they’re in Mexico, they’re going to have a baby, they move over here for a couple of days, they have the baby,” Trump said, telling O’Reilly that the lawyers said, “It’s not going to hold up in court, it’s going to have to be tested.”
The GOP candidate went on to say “some very, very good lawyers” – he didn’t name any – agree with Trump that some people born in the United States “do not have American citizenship,” even if the 14th Amendment says otherwise.

Trump could try to push for a constitutional change, but he’d prefer a shortcut. “It’s a long process, and I think it would take too long,” he said last night. “I’d much rather find out whether or not anchor babies are citizens because a lot of people don’t think they are.”

And why is all of this necessary? Because according to the Republican leading in every poll, “We have to start a process where we take back our country. Our country is going to hell.”

The video is from youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlTOhEGp4VM

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 11:06:48 AM   
Thegunnysez


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quote:


Because according to the Republican leading in every poll, “We have to start a process where we take back our country. Our country is going to hell.”


Who are we going to "take it back" from this time all the native Americans are busy at the casino?


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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 11:12:36 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
His plan....stopping birthright citizenship is a bigger issue than he can get his hesd around at the moment


"His plan..." - I'm going to take that as Trump's plan.

"...than he can get his head around..." - Who is the he/his referring to? Is that still Trump?

I'm only asking for clarification, Lucy.


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What I support:

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 11:24:56 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
His plan....stopping birthright citizenship is a bigger issue than he can get his hesd around at the moment


"His plan..." - I'm going to take that as Trump's plan.

"...than he can get his head around..." - Who is the he/his referring to? Is that still Trump?

I'm only asking for clarification, Lucy.


not a problem hon...
His, yes Trumps....minus the typo in "head"
sorry was in an office and hurried.
WHat I meant by it was that his plan hasnt been explained to him properly...he catches on fast...but the 14th...is not unconstitutional. he says he has lawyers...meh...will take an even longer time to get thru the courts than an amendment. but he has the money and the power...or has he, and would he?


< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 8/19/2015 11:29:23 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 11:35:20 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Specifically? Not sure. I don't have a number in mind, but it would need to be very stiff, and escalate with repeat offenses.

Let's kick this around a bit...what do you think about six months or a year in prison for the first offense for say less than 100 illegal alien employees...and some kind of fine say $1000 per head?


There is already a schedule for fines.



The site doesn't have anything pointing to the fines after the 3rd offense, though that might be where the "pattern or practice" part comes in. I think each incident should escalate beyond the third incident (if it doesn't already). If the 4th incident triggers the "pattern or practice" penalties, I do think the civil fines/penalties should still apply (if they don't already). Additionally, I don't have a problem with the first penalty for the pattern or practice including up to 6 months of jail time for the entire "pattern or practice," but I do think that should escalate, too. Perhaps the second pattern or practice violation include up to 6 months in jail for each unauthorized alien employed. The third pattern or practice violation could include 6-12 months per unauthorized alien employed.

One big problem, though, is that many of these violators can sidestep penalties by claiming having taken "good faith" attempts to verify employability. While that can certainly be the case, that defense can also be abused. So, any immigration policy change might have to include a more secure and accurate method by which employability and identity can be verified.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 11:41:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Yeah That one is to big for anyone. Cause then we can start other forms of citizenship qualifications.
Doesn't mean that CPS can't step in and take the child to protect it while the parents are being detained and deported.


It's not too big. It's actually quite easy. If you are born in the US, but neither of your parents are legally in the US, then that child isn't a citizen of the US. If a child is born to parents who have temporary legal presence, citizenship can be extended to that child, if the parents so desire (it's also up to the parents if they want to not have US citizenship for the child, or to hold dual citizenship with their home country).

Remember what I said with respect to the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare subsidies still being applied to those who signed up on the Federal exchange? They decided the intent of the law (though Gruber didn't agree) was for anyone signing up on a State or Federal exchange to still be eligible for the subsidies. The 14th Amendment was not intended to apply to children of illegal aliens.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 11:43:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
What is it about topics like immigration and race that seems to bring out the inner fascist in so many on the Right? Please note that I am not saying all on the Right, just 'many' as evidenced in some of the posts above.
We have a parallel phenomenon here in Australia, where politicians vie to be the most brutal towards refugees. There is an outcry from the Right in the UK and France too on these issues. So it doesn't seem to be specific to any one country. People who like to position themselves as defenders of liberty and freedom suddenly call for Iron Curtain style borders and demand lethal consequences for any one who tries to get past the cordon sanitaire. Is it that they dislike sharing the privileges of Aussie/US/UK/EU residence and citizenship with any one else? Or merely those with darker skin tones than their own? Is it that they feel threatened by those different to themselves?
It is a feature of this discussion here that so many are so ill-informed, sometimes almost hysterically so. Destitute refugees arriving by boat are demonised with a large section of the population believing they are security threats and terrorists. Ask someone what an illegal immigrant looks like and you will invariably get either an Arab or Asian stereotype as a response. Yet the largest number of illegal immigrants here are from the UK, and seem to get a free pass ..... not difficult to work out why is it?


Illegal immigrants /= Refugees

Does that help?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 11:54:20 AM   
StWrinklemeat


Posts: 118
Joined: 8/11/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

It's not too big. It's actually quite easy. If you are born in the US, but neither of your parents are legally in the US, then that child isn't a citizen of the US. If a child is born to parents who have temporary legal presence, citizenship can be extended to that child, if the parents so desire (it's also up to the parents if they want to not have US citizenship for the child, or to hold dual citizenship with their home country).

Remember what I said with respect to the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare subsidies still being applied to those who signed up on the Federal exchange? They decided the intent of the law (though Gruber didn't agree) was for anyone signing up on a State or Federal exchange to still be eligible for the subsidies. The 14th Amendment was not intended to apply to children of illegal aliens.




Notes from the Wannasee conference. ~ Martin Luther

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 12:00:45 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
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it looks like $3000 plus 6 months in jail. So if someone had 100 illegal alien employees they would be eligible for $300,000 fine and 6 months in jail. As small as that seems it does not seem to be enforced. Why?

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 12:06:46 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I have one objection to Mr. Trump's plan: What to do about "anchor babies".
While some people insist that the constitution does not guarantee "natural born" = "citizen", I disagree. However, I will grant that premise for the purposes of this post (sort of).
Whether the constitution guarantees it or not, I think it has become a de facto rule, based upon 237 years of tradition. If people are sure it is not guaranteed by the constitution, I favor a constitutional amendment (of course, the PPL destroyers will never let that happen).
So, now that we've defined that portion of citizenship, what do we do about illegals that come here just to birth their babies here as a method of gaining their own "legal status"? Simple. Their children are citizens. They are not. Good-bye madre y padre!
When mom and dad get caught and it's time for them to be deported, they get offered a choice: "Take your child with you, to raise as you see fit. If you don't want to do that, we'll keep that American citizen and put them into foster care ... a pathway to adoption".
I think the idea of "natural born" is inviolable and should be, but I also believe that it shouldn't be yet another scam used by criminals to gain what they can't, through legal channels.
Michael


Section 1 of the 14th Amendment is where birthright citizenship is brought up.
    quote:

    Section 1.

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


But, SCOTUS ruled several years later that a Native American born on an Indian reservation (even though it's within the territorial boundaries of the US) was not automatically an US Citizen because of the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" portion of the Amendment. That is, someone born in the US to citizens of any country other than the US (both parents not citizens of the US), is not an US citizen by birth. This did not apply to President Obama because his mother was an US citizen at his birth.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/19/trumps-plan-to-end-birthright-citizenship-isnt-that-crazy/

Even if it's decided that merely being born on US soil conferred citizenship, it could prevent "anchor baby" issues and prevent familial breakup by deporting the child and the parents, allowing that the child may not have legal presence guaranteed until the age of majority, or under certain other situations (ie. asylum situations). Then, the child will be able to legally reside in the US when he/she is old enough, and will not have the opportunity to anchor the illegal immigrant parents.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Trump's Immigration Plan - 8/19/2015 12:09:18 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
His plan....stopping birthright citizenship is a bigger issue than he can get his hesd around at the moment

"His plan..." - I'm going to take that as Trump's plan.
"...than he can get his head around..." - Who is the he/his referring to? Is that still Trump?
I'm only asking for clarification, Lucy.

not a problem hon...
His, yes Trumps....minus the typo in "head"
sorry was in an office and hurried.
WHat I meant by it was that his plan hasnt been explained to him properly...he catches on fast...but the 14th...is not unconstitutional. he says he has lawyers...meh...will take an even longer time to get thru the courts than an amendment. but he has the money and the power...or has he, and would he?


Thanks for the clarification, Lucy. I think I responded to your points with my response to DaddySatyr.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 80
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