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RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 10:25:17 AM   
Thegunnysez


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quote:


The plan - harass them, disable them, kill them. Let the guys who we pay to do that stuff figure out the details


Like we did at My Lai?

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 10:57:10 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

All of that would be needed to follow my suggestions.
I would hope that generals would be able to improve on them.


The plan - harass them, disable them, kill them. Let the guys who we pay to do that stuff figure out the details

Is this what you call a plan.: 'Let's do the killing and all the fun stuff and leave all the boring bits like running the country afterwards to the clowns we have bought'??? Even by your usually abysmal standards, this might be a new low. This is just a crude version of BamaD's 'thought-out plan' which keeps the violence and dumps all the rest - not that "the rest" of Bama's plan amounts to much.

Mind you it does reveal that there was a rational reason behind your persistent refusal to outline your 'action plan' against IS - you simply have't got a clue what might work other than spill lots of blood and bomb anything that moves.

I can see that this 'strategy' (if that's not too much of a stretch) would appeal to psychopaths but what about the rest of us? It has the same chance of success as Trump has of getting the latino vote.....

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RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 11:05:45 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

While I don't necessarily disagree with any of your proposals, I am not certain that you have thought them through fully.

For instance, the groups that have proved most effective in fighting IS in Iraq are primarily the Shia militias, the Iranians and a distant third are the Kurds. So I take it that you are in favour of arming all these parties with the best weapons for the situation ...?

In Syria it's a bit more complicated but the parties that have taken the fight to IS are mainly Govt forces under Assad and Hezbollah. (Following your suggestions) arming both of these particular parties with the best weapons for the situation and providing air support would do the job. But it would also ensure Assad's continuing grip on power and give an enormous boost to Hezbollah politically and strategically (aside from giving them weapons that could be used against US allies like Israel). I'm not too sure how you might feel about this eventuality.

Actually I have thought it out, and presumed too much on the part of some other posters. Of course we don't arm people who are as bad as ISIS. I was primarily focused on Syria. The Jordanians and Saudis have started taking action and will need help. I also wouldn't argue for pushing the Israelis to get into this because it would cloud the issue.
I don't do walls like Joe so what you got was an overview, not a detailed plan.

The Saudis - the thoroughly modern democrats and human rights champions that they are - haven't "started taking action" in Syria. They have been among the prime movers and shakers in Syria since the rebellion against Assad broke out years ago.

What action were they taking? Arming and financing first the local AQ franchise the Nusra Front and more recently IS. Just as they funded and supplied IS in Iraq. If your plan relies on such partners taking meaningful action to eliminate IS, it's not going to get past Stage 1, it's not going to happen let alone succeed.

These are conflicts that don't feature good guys and bad guys. These are conflicts that feature bad guys and worse guys. And then even worse guys ...... Naive poorly informed back of the envelope schemes such as yours won't last a day in the crucible of the ME

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/20/2015 11:09:32 AM >

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RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 11:21:24 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

All of that would be needed to follow my suggestions.
I would hope that generals would be able to improve on them.


The plan - harass them, disable them, kill them. Let the guys who we pay to do that stuff figure out the details

Is this what you call a plan.: 'Let's do the killing and all the fun stuff and leave all the boring bits like running the country afterwards to the clowns we have bought'??? Even by your usually abysmal standards, this might be a new low. This is just a crude version of BamaD's 'thought-out plan' which keeps the violence and dumps all the rest - not that "the rest" of Bama's plan amounts to much.

Mind you it does reveal that there was a rational reason behind your persistent refusal to outline your 'action plan' against IS - you simply have't got a clue what might work other than spill lots of blood and bomb anything that moves.

I can see that this 'strategy' (if that's not too much of a stretch) would appeal to psychopaths but what about the rest of us? It has the same chance of success as Trump has of getting the latino vote.....



Run the country?

It speaks volumes about you, about how radical of an Islamist that you are, that your main worry is finding someone as qualified as ISIS to run things over there

I've always suspected as much, thanks for the confirmation


< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/20/2015 11:30:07 AM >

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(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 2:20:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

While I don't necessarily disagree with any of your proposals, I am not certain that you have thought them through fully.

For instance, the groups that have proved most effective in fighting IS in Iraq are primarily the Shia militias, the Iranians and a distant third are the Kurds. So I take it that you are in favour of arming all these parties with the best weapons for the situation ...?

In Syria it's a bit more complicated but the parties that have taken the fight to IS are mainly Govt forces under Assad and Hezbollah. (Following your suggestions) arming both of these particular parties with the best weapons for the situation and providing air support would do the job. But it would also ensure Assad's continuing grip on power and give an enormous boost to Hezbollah politically and strategically (aside from giving them weapons that could be used against US allies like Israel). I'm not too sure how you might feel about this eventuality.

Actually I have thought it out, and presumed too much on the part of some other posters. Of course we don't arm people who are as bad as ISIS. I was primarily focused on Syria. The Jordanians and Saudis have started taking action and will need help. I also wouldn't argue for pushing the Israelis to get into this because it would cloud the issue.
I don't do walls like Joe so what you got was an overview, not a detailed plan.

The Saudis - the thoroughly modern democrats and human rights champions that they are - haven't "started taking action" in Syria. They have been among the prime movers and shakers in Syria since the rebellion against Assad broke out years ago.

What action were they taking? Arming and financing first the local AQ franchise the Nusra Front and more recently IS. Just as they funded and supplied IS in Iraq. If your plan relies on such partners taking meaningful action to eliminate IS, it's not going to get past Stage 1, it's not going to happen let alone succeed.

These are conflicts that don't feature good guys and bad guys. These are conflicts that feature bad guys and worse guys. And then even worse guys ...... Naive poorly informed back of the envelope schemes such as yours won't last a day in the crucible of the ME

You haven't been paying attention.
And you have been, as usual responding to something I didn't say.
I said our generals would have to work out the details of implementation.
They have even more information than you think you do. I know they have more details than either of us. Thus the exact details should be left to them, not pro-Islamists like you and self serving politicians. I see that after saying that you don't oppose my plan you attack it using distortion and gross misunderstanding.
I said nothing about running the country afterwords. You on the left say we shouldn't impose democracy but we can't turn it over to local strong men, who do you want to run it?
The Saudis have bombed ISIS strong points so once again you speak from ignorance.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 2:24:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

While I don't necessarily disagree with any of your proposals, I am not certain that you have thought them through fully.

For instance, the groups that have proved most effective in fighting IS in Iraq are primarily the Shia militias, the Iranians and a distant third are the Kurds. So I take it that you are in favour of arming all these parties with the best weapons for the situation ...?

In Syria it's a bit more complicated but the parties that have taken the fight to IS are mainly Govt forces under Assad and Hezbollah. (Following your suggestions) arming both of these particular parties with the best weapons for the situation and providing air support would do the job. But it would also ensure Assad's continuing grip on power and give an enormous boost to Hezbollah politically and strategically (aside from giving them weapons that could be used against US allies like Israel). I'm not too sure how you might feel about this eventuality.

Actually I have thought it out, and presumed too much on the part of some other posters. Of course we don't arm people who are as bad as ISIS. I was primarily focused on Syria. The Jordanians and Saudis have started taking action and will need help. I also wouldn't argue for pushing the Israelis to get into this because it would cloud the issue.
I don't do walls like Joe so what you got was an overview, not a detailed plan.

The Saudis - the thoroughly modern democrats and human rights champions that they are - haven't "started taking action" in Syria. They have been among the prime movers and shakers in Syria since the rebellion against Assad broke out years ago.

What action were they taking? Arming and financing first the local AQ franchise the Nusra Front and more recently IS. Just as they funded and supplied IS in Iraq. If your plan relies on such partners taking meaningful action to eliminate IS, it's not going to get past Stage 1, it's not going to happen let alone succeed.

These are conflicts that don't feature good guys and bad guys. These are conflicts that feature bad guys and worse guys. And then even worse guys ...... Naive poorly informed back of the envelope schemes such as yours won't last a day in the crucible of the ME

You are right about one thing it isn't good guys vs bad guys over there, I want to encourage bad guys to kill worse guys.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 2:31:22 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		Yeah and the bad guy who comes out on top has all the guns and power, real genius solutions bud

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 2:39:52 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Yeah and the bad guy who comes out on top has all the guns and power, real genius solutions bud

Simplistic leftist thinking.
Ha Ha Ha, you don't know how little old England maintained their empire do you? War by proxy, the Brits were even better at it than the Romans.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/20/2015 2:41:04 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 2:46:48 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		yeah and previous American proxy wars, rebellions, and coups have all backfired on the world time after time, ISIS being just the most recent result of that. How many times do you idiots have to go through this crap before you realize it doesn't work the way you intend it to?

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 2:54:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

yeah and previous American proxy wars, rebellions, and coups have all backfired on the world time after time, ISIS being just the most recent result of that. How many times do you idiots have to go through this crap before you realize it doesn't work the way you intend it to?

So how would you fix this?
Just stand aside let ISIS run free and hope they leave you alone?
Talk nice to them, be understanding, they aren't that bad.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 3:11:21 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		Well I sure know I wouldn't do the same failed thing over and over. Here's an idea; actually investing in defence instead of sending forces overseas, covert or otherwise. Get out of other countries' shit and let them deal with it. Your country and mine too are so worried about terrorism, and yet our forces are far away from the people they're meant to protect. There will always be terrorists posing a threat to any country, whether they originate internally or externally, so focus on your own country instead of going overseas and creating more terrorists by waging wars against frustrated individuals who want revenge against the people who bombed their family members. They wouldn't see you or I as a target if we didn't get involved in their BS in the first place. So my solution: stay out of it, provide humanitarian aid if possible but focus on our own internal security rather than trying to solve all the problems of the world.

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RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 3:37:23 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		well we could put a sniper every few meters (how far apart is terrain dependent) with lots of ammo and put up a dead line. you cross it and you get shot. If you survive that and cross the red line you get a 155 shoved up your ass and we help you blow your nose.

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RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 3:45:29 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		oh for fucks sake grow up.

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RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 4:03:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

yeah and previous American proxy wars, rebellions, and coups have all backfired on the world time after time, ISIS being just the most recent result of that. How many times do you idiots have to go through this crap before you realize it doesn't work the way you intend it to?

You don't know our history either, we don't do proxy wars, we go in win it for them and leave them without the pride or experience of winning themselves, my approach fixes what we have been doing wrong.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 4:05:30 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I'll say it for you then: "I don't know what should be done. I have no plan, I'm just upset about what's happening."


Yup. And I can't help but feel that the OP is so derangedly right wing that he honestly does believe that everyone on the left will want to defend ISIS no matter what unbelievable atrocity they perpetrate. Thus, we all want to let ISIS just get on with whatever they want to do.

Jesus. Can't we *ever* have an intelligent discussion about ISIS? Sanity - maybe a few other righties (but actually very few, from what I can see here) can you not grasp that *everyone*, of *all political hues*, finds them disgusting and horrific? If you want my personal opinion: Yes, they're the most hideous political force I've seen appear since the Nazis. In fact they make the Nazis themselves look kind of pansy-assed and restrained. That good enough for you?

What to do about them, though - that's the really challenging question. There are good brains using this forum, on both the left and the right. Why don't we work on it, eh? We all know that there are military, political and diplomatic minefields to be navigated. So how do we do that navigating? What would we suggest to Obama and fellow sympathetic world leaders?

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RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 4:16:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I'll say it for you then: "I don't know what should be done. I have no plan, I'm just upset about what's happening."


Yup. And I can't help but feel that the OP is so derangedly right wing that he honestly does believe that everyone on the left will want to defend ISIS no matter what unbelievable atrocity they perpetrate. Thus, we all want to let ISIS just get on with whatever they want to do.

Jesus. Can't we *ever* have an intelligent discussion about ISIS? Sanity - maybe a few other righties (but actually very few, from what I can see here) can you not grasp that *everyone*, of *all political hues*, finds them disgusting and horrific? If you want my personal opinion: Yes, they're the most hideous political force I've seen appear since the Nazis. In fact they make the Nazis themselves look kind of pansy-assed and restrained. That good enough for you?

What to do about them, though - that's the really challenging question. There are good brains using this forum, on both the left and the right. Why don't we work on it, eh? We all know that there are military, political and diplomatic minefields to be navigated. So how do we do that navigating? What would we suggest to Obama and fellow sympathetic world leaders?

Don't take this personally because it is a response, and not aimed at you.
The left in general is taking the approach of ignore them and they will go away. That is wishful thinking. You are the first leftist in this thread to agree as to the kind of monsters we are dealing with here. But as long as the others refuse to accept this fact they have no credibility. Obama tried ignore them and they will go away when ISIS was small, see what good that did. None of the people who are attacking my plan have come up with anything other than hiding their heads in the sand and saying we don't care how many people you behead.
Again you have just shown more contact with reality than the people I am speaking of.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 4:29:17 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

oh for fucks sake grow up.

No Never. If I grow up then you will make me behave and I will never do that. Wanna fool around for a while? hehehehehehe

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 4:34:26 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

The left in general is taking the approach of ignore them and they will go away.


Do you really think that? I'm flabbergasted!

It seems to me that the truth is I don't think anyone, on right or on left, has a solid and workable plan as to what to do about ISIS. *All* of us in the West, right across the political spectrum, are floundering. Over the past decades, since World War 2 even, there have been so many balls-ups in diplomatic and military actions between West and East and between the cultures of both that we can't now do anything at all without the very real fear of fucking things up still further. The world as a whole created this monster; the world as a whole has to get past its ideological differences, pull its collective finger out of its anus, and try to approach the problem *rationally*, assuming that this is possible.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 4:39:42 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		you have to take into consideration that he has most of the leftists on hide, so he is using a hugely tiny database of "leftists" to base his bullshit on.



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Islamic State Begins Destroying Palmyra Shrines - 8/20/2015 4:46:42 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Ah. Gotcha.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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