joether
Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
As always you either misuderstand or distort my point. When did I say there was a conspiracy, I didn't.
How you were presenting things. Feels like there is some weird conspiracy. Just out of sight from most people. I've read/heard a pile of conspiracy theories on this very topic your discussing. It felt like one of those. If its not, my apologizes!
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
I said that there is a steady drumbeat of the cops are evil.
A few bad apples ruins the barrel!
More and more I'm considering that the problem is two fold:
1 ) The standards for police officers will be raised. That will require more training of existing police officers, and restructuring teaching tools for those to be taught in the coming years. I would frankly be surprised if what took place in other places in the nation, took place in the towns around me. In Massachusetts there is a policy that if a candidate has a BA/BS degree, they earn more money. We do it as a society to encourage candidates to be educated before they attend the needing training to become a police officer (and passing all the tests in the state).
That in other states, officers are hired right out of high school. Without a good education. Going to college does more than just give you a piece of paper and a $30-70K debt to Uncle Sam. It forces the individual to develop good thinking, reasoning, and researching skills. Things that help police do good things for their community. It also places another layer of thick skin from the many times one gets 'shot down' after making a poor argument with poor supporting material. This helps in that when on the street, they are not as phased by insults or 'inciting' attacks.
What we are seeing are examples of police officers that have not developed themselves well enough for the job role. That one can not be that 'country cop' seen in the 1950's movies anymore. The job requires an intelligent, informed, and steady individual that understands how to behave in any of hundreds of given situations. From being a diplomat during a community round table/review board, handing street toughs physical, or studying evidence to understand the most likely suspect is not the guilty one.
2 ) The community will have to give some latitude to police work. This is a trust issue. Let me state that right from the beginning. When that trust is broken, by what ever means; it takes a LONG time to repair. Even developing a good relationship with the community can cause anxiety towards police officers. There are good people whom are afraid the police officer will arrest them for something....anything! That sort of thinking does prevent better relations between the police and the community.
The community has to learn to give some leeway to the police operating. If the community thinks their police are professional, stable, an just as lay abiding; its more likely they will overlook minor issues. Often the police might apologize for problems they created. If the community doesn't trust them; minor issues become large issues. Large issues become titanic forces.
Building this trust and good will with their community takes progressive action. Building relationships with individuals from the community whom can in turn, help other individuals within the community to trust the police. Being seen not from the rear view mirror, but walking along the road and waves in greeting with a smile. Whom is not afraid to have a 'dance off' with the kids for fun.
12 Acts of Kindness by Police Officers The last one is moving for me....
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
I said that BLM rallies routinely have people chanting for dead cops.
There are Tea Party Rallies that routinely say bad stuff about President Obama. The earlier ones (when it was then, Sen. Obama) were mixed with enough hatred one could pile it off in layers! There are many conservatives and libertarians in this nation that say some REALLY ugly and borderline dangerous stuff about the President. Tea Party and 2nd amendment favorite country singer, Ted Nugent had stated things enough to get investigated by the Secret Service.
Where is all the outrage from conservatives and libertarians over this? How often do we see threads on it?
While BLM might have several good points (like the Tea Party). I am strongly against their view that killing cops (or a President) is 'a good thing'. Those that say it, should be mocked, laughed down, and even told to 'STFUA' in private. Its one thing to give a peaceful assembly and to state your annoyances about government. Its quite different to make threatening comments (which are NOT protected forms of free speech).
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
This will appeal to the parinoid nut-cases, it gives them a blank check to kill cops.
An now you might begin to understand how the liberals feel about how the Tea Party (and parts of the GOP) have behaved for a good solid seven years now! Its not 'right' how conservatives and libertarians have treated President Obama. Just as its not right for these groups to attack (verbally and physically) of law enforcement.
Its people failing at being good citizens in our nation!
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
No the people cops have to kill in the line of duty is not relevant. If a cop has an unjustified shooting, he should face the same penalties as anyone else.
I agree. I would hope that people consider the individual innocent until such time as he or she is found guilty of one or more charges from a court of law. They are given a fair trial, with access to a lawyer at all steps. People tend to form opinions based upon little to no good or factual knowledge. That seeps into the background noise over time. It becomes steadily more toxic without those people consciously being aware of it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
However the use of gross numbers ignores the fact that very few of the cases where the police shooting fall into that catagory. However by the simple fact that you want them all lumped together shows that you assume that the cop is guilty until proven innocent by your standards which will never be met, I'll bet that you still think Wilson is guilty even though even the DOJ which went there to fry him cleared him.
I have always tried to maintain that an individual whom is accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. Go figure, I'm human, and every once in while I think someone is guilty *COUGH*OJSIMPSON1995*COUGH*. I think I'm the rare person on this forum that states we should view criminal and civil cases on an individual basis for their merits and problems. You *DO* remember my view on the Heller Vs District of Columbia? Did I mention other cases when speaking on that one? Only to show how the court behaved in the circumstances I was defining (to show consistancy or not within the argument). I explained the history of the case that led up to the courts, and how the case travelled to the final decision from the US Supreme Court. Even stating my own view on the problem as if I were to rule on it.
I'm not going to discuss that case here. Lets stick to the topic....
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
It is you, not me who is big into vast conspiracies. I think that there is a dangerous anti-cop movement fueled in part by people hunting for ratings, cop kills innocent kid gets better ratings that the tape showing the "innocent kid" shooting at the police before they draw their weapons.
I'm surprised you have not arrived your logic train to the station. Your like 90% 'there' in your argument.
Many conservatives on here rail the US Government due to the actions of President Obama and Democrats, yet give a total pass to Republicans/Tea Party. The 'BLM' crowd is attacking law enforcement. What do both groups attacking have in common here? An intense dislike for some aspect of government they feel is their enemy!
Is it really their enemy? No of course not! But reality does not suit those groups and their viewpoints. That they need an enemy in order to exist. Enviromentalist verse Oil & Gas Supporters. How 'mean' and 'nasty' do environmentalists get with the Oil & Gas Supporters (an vise versa)? Folks against Illegal Immigrants verse those that view differently? These are some pretty hate-filled 'conversations' that take place.
Yet while some of these and other groups give....intense....viewpoints towards their 'enemy'; I often do not see anywhere on the level of a group of people hating some aspect of government. Unlike Republican and Democrat fights; at the end of the day, both sides can acknowledge the other side is composed of US Citizens. When it comes to the government, people seem to think those in the public sector are not US Citizens and therefore are unable to understand things.
How often do we hear folks from different places around the country say "Washington doesn't know shit about how life is like here!"? Yet, ask those people:
A ) What is the unemployment rate? Overall and by each industry?
B ) What is the tax rate and types of taxes likely incurred in a given area?
C ) How is the local economy performing minus all the bullshit?
D ) How is the natural environment around them (air, water, soil quality down to specific figures)?
E ) Whom is contacted to handle issues with:
E1 ) Labor Issues
E2 ) Welfare Issues
E3 ) Commerce Issues
E4 ) Legal and Law Enforcement Issues
E5 ) Educational Issues
F ) How many people in your state have specialized skills for any number of issues?
Most people you ask, will answer 'I dont know'. Yet, the US Government could answer all of these with practical ease. Which then begs the question: Who really doesn't know how things are like here?
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
With BLM you have people stoking the fire to push their political agenda.
The Tea Party has been doing this for years.....
I seem to recall the Republican party 'stroking the fire' on the Affordable Care Act for years. While certain Republican/Tea Party individuals stated the ACA has death panels; I read that whole document. Didn't see one instance or even hint of death panels. I even did a word search for 'death' just to see how often it came up (15 times if your curious).
Do I agree that BLM should be allowed to 'stroke the fire'? FUCK and NO! No good can come from turning people into mindless, frenzy, monsters. The Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995 took place because conservative media kept trying to 'out do' the next conservative media during the Clinton years. At the time, the Militia Man Movement was all the 'rage' in conservative politics (which would later become the Tea Party). Look up the history. Its chalk full of hatred, anger, and even threats of violence.
Sadly, I would hope the black community would have leaders and principle individuals whom could keep their friends, family, and other folks well away from the fury and anger. To sit down with the police and start building relationships up again. If any one group in America has had the most trouble with law enforcment; I would expect them to have built up the most knowledge on 'what doesn't work, and use what does' in rebuilding relationships between the police and the community!
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
They may not really think people to go out shooting cops, but they (maybe mindlessly) incourage others to do so.
Your seeing things as I've seen them from the GOP/TP for years now. Why do you think I fear the 2nd amendment being torn down due to right wingers, with firearms, and a belief they have a 'bone to pick' with the US Government? An times you tried to point out that this could/would not happen. Yet, I think within this sentence, your starting to understand things I've known for a while.
You and I.....REALLY....do not want this country torn apart by petty and stupid people. I think we can agree on that!
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
9 in two weeks in more than tragic, anyone who fails to see something sinister in this is either blind or a fool.
We've had 2nd amendment discussions/fights. An I've tried to understand your view and position. I would like to think I've gained a better understanding to realize that issue is much more complex and complicated than most Americans realize right now. So I'm going to try to many an analogy here that tries to link your thoughts to mine. No promises that you'll understand it, much less agree with me here.....but I'll try....
Every few weeks, it seems we have....ANOTHER....deadly shooting in America. Some person, somewhere, uses one or more firearms to kill two or more people at one time. Often scaring the living shit out of a large group of people at one or more locations. These are tragedies I feel we could have minimized if not prevented. Not by banning firearms, but taking a serious, objective study of all known understandings as they relate to firearm ownership in America.
At one time mass shootings were once every few months. Before that, every few years. There is not any one thing that changed events from 'a few years' to 'a few weeks'. That would have been noticeable! That it has happened over a long length of time, and in tiny bits, with complicated/complex issues/events surrounding them so as to easily hide in the background.
Why are police officers dying? We are not wanting to look at the facts and evidence. To make informed and objective decisions. To acknowledge now and after such changes (if they are made at all) that we have to live with the consequences (good and bad). Not to many adults in the political world are strong or brave enough to under take such a feat. Even if a set of individuals were found. And they were able to tap into the right set of paths to arrive at not just the problem(s) but the solutions(s). I think they would be totally undermined if their findings and corrections did not sit well with a large or very influential political group(s). They would use the 'Low Information Voter' as cannon fodder to swing support and politics away from those individuals.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
By the way I never said all of the attackers were black, one ambush was by a white man, and the one in Il was two whites and a black. So the feeble attempt to paint me as a racist is just that.
You have some unnamed black friends, right? Usually right after some white person states a racially inflaming joke or insult, turns and states "But that's ok, since I have (insert minority being insulted) friends". And it always comes across as "Ok, insult our intelligence that your an idiot".
Not enough information to state your a racists.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamaD
It seems that you and your freind think that to support the police makes you racist, doesn't that say anything about how blind you are?
I support my government through volunteering in the community and paying taxes! Ferguson is a curious case in which the majority population is black and the majority population of the police force is white. It begs the question "Where there not enough qualified candidates for the police force?". Yes, the police force has to show evidence that states their hiring practice was not racists. But then the flip questions arpimd: Are new hires more likely to be black, because the citizen population is mostly back? Or hire the best quality people, whom may not be black?
Places government in a very awkward position.
Ultimately, I think its going to come down to more educational requirements for police officers and better relationships towards the communities they serve. Hard tasks to be successful at no doubt.
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