RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father

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Politesub53 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/7/2015 5:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle a thread about destitute refugees fleeing war and disaster Yeah well, not quite. The family was living in Turkey, not Syria, and had been for three years. [1] They hadn't applied for asylum in Canada. [2] And the reason the father wanted to go to Europe was to get his teeth fixed. [3] 1. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/father-drowned-boy-aylan-kurdi-return-syria 2. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/03/europe-migrants-canada-idUSL1N1191PZ20150903 3. http://www.wsj.com/articles/image-of-syrian-boy-washed-up-on-beach-hits-hard-1441282847 Carry on. K. Propaganda? From tweakerbell? I am shocked. Are you and K suggesting he wasnt a refugee ....... Now that bollocks would be propaganda.

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/7/2015 6:59:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph well thanks for the links - after reading them those things you claim as solid facts appear very contradictory - not the least where the family lived when and for how long ... and I guess if he really went just to get his damaged teeth fixed, he would hardly have taken his sons with him Well, the original idea was... Ms. Kurdi, speaking Thursday in a Vancouver suburb, said that their father, still in Syria, had suggested Abdullah go to Europe to get his damaged teeth fixed and find a way to help his family leave Turkey. She said she began wiring her brother money three weeks ago, in €1,000 ($1,100) amounts, to help pay for the trip. Then that changed... Shortly after, she said her brother called her and said he wanted to bring his whole family to Europe, as his wife wasn’t able to support their two boys alone in Istanbul... “If we go, we go all of us,” Ms. Kurdi recounted him telling her. She said she spoke to his wife last week, who told her she was scared of the water and couldn’t swim. But here's a contradiction: Mr. Kurdi gave different accounts of what happened next. In one interview, he said he swam ashore and walked to the hospital. In another, he said he was rescued by the coast guard. I'm starting to think that the press jumped on this one too quickly. K.

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/7/2015 7:02:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Are you and K suggesting he wasnt a refugee ....... Now that bollocks would be propaganda. Well from the news reports we're seeing now, he wasn't a refugee fleeing war-torn Syria. He was a migrant from Turkey. Of course, if you think I wrote them and planted them as "propaganda" that's another matter. K.

blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 3:04:21 AM)
from the reports you quoted he and his wife and children lived in Damascus and Aleppo (both once famous for multi-ethnic populations having lived there), then fled to Kobane, crossed the border to Turkey there (which as you might remember is kind of a partitioned city part turkish part syrian, Kurds living north and south the border - recently under siege by IS ...) then spent time in Turkey for some time moving further north-west to various border regions to Greece you might also have noticed that the President of Turkey complained how many Syrian refugees have fled to Turkey, Lebanon (the immediate neighbours) - far more than to Europe so far - so having arrived in Turkey would hardly change that man being a Syrian refugee -- on foot that might look like migration (Latin migrare - to move on foot) ... what makes the difference to a flight in your opinion: speed, means of transportation, contents of pocket??? I can't see where you get the conclusions from you jump head-on into - and the difference you make between a migrant and a refugee

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 3:22:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph I can't see where you get the conclusions from you jump head-on into - and the difference you make between a migrant and a refugee He's been living in Turkey for three years. He's not fleeing a war zone. K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 4:09:21 AM)
The boy's family are from Kobani, which they fled 3 years ago. Kobani was the scene of an IS siege and major battle between the Kurds and IS, which ended a few months ago. This is what Kobani looks like: http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/Islamic-State-retreat-from-Kobani-Islamic-State-Kobani-Battle-248532.jpg It is utterly devastated, uninhabitable. The family's home and home town have been destroyed. They are refugees fleeing war [image]local://upfiles/504455/2F3BA0184D7346DF8D65F3FEEA392872.jpg[/image] I'm not sure why you are disputing this. Even if this particular family are not refugees, how does that impact on the many tens of thousands of genuine refugees fleeing Syria and other war zones? It doesn't detract from the seriousness of their plight an iota. But this line of argument is being used by the extreme Right here to justify their opposition to re-settling any refugees from Syria. Do you share their position?

blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 4:11:29 AM)
he lived where and under what conditions in Turkey? no statements there refugee camp? - one room with relatives? - five star hotel? - tent? Turkey is not known for offering luxury accomodation but well known for bothering Kurds with lots of bureaucracy regulation (including officially changing names for example ...) we read here how long one might have to wait for being interviewed for refugee status in the US - do you think Turkish bureaucracy works faster?

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 5:26:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The boy's family are from Kobani, which they fled 3 years ago. Kobani was the scene of an IS siege and major battle between the Kurds and IS, which ended a few months ago. This is what Kobani looks like: http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/Islamic-State-retreat-from-Kobani-Islamic-State-Kobani-Battle-248532.jpg It is utterly devastated, uninhabitable. The family's home and home town have been destroyed. They are refugees fleeing war I'm not sure why you are disputing this. They fled the war in Syria three years ago and settled in Turkey. They are no longer fleeing war by any stretch of the imagination. What we have here is a father who, having decided to get his teeth fixed in Europe, put the lives of his entire family at risk in a scheme with smugglers who traffick in human cargo so he could sneak into another country illegally. I'm sorry for his bad luck. The end. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Even if this particular family are not refugees, how does that impact on the many tens of thousands of genuine refugees fleeing Syria and other war zones? It doesn't detract from the seriousness of their plight an iota. Since none of my posts regarding this case have claimed that it impacts anything else, you are arguing with the voices in your head here. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle But this line of argument is being used by the extreme Right here to justify their opposition to re-settling any refugees from Syria. Do you share their position? I always cringe at this kind of puerile attempt at playing identity politics. Apparently your education failed to cover logical fallacies. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#GuiltbyAssociation K.

blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 5:37:43 AM)
... "settled in Turkey" ... where did you get that information? by the time only?? (which is hardly a relevant information regarding their status, as exemplified before)

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 6:01:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph he lived where and under what conditions in Turkey? no statements there refugee camp? - one room with relatives? - five star hotel? - tent? Aw c'mon. You didn't even read the links. They were renting and he had a job (hint: Wall Street Journal). Not quite making ends meet, but not living in a refugee camp or fleeing a war zone. Are we done here? K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 6:10:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata They fled the war in Syria three years ago and settled in Turkey. There is no evidence to support the claim that the family had "settled in Turkey". Their failed application for asylum in Canada tells us that they hadn't "settled" at all but were looking to leave. Turks have a long history of mistreating Kurds, and this case is no exception according to his sister. In your link she describes the family's treatment by Turkish authorities as "horrible". There are references to enforced name changes - apparently the family name is Shenu but the Turks insisted on calling them Kurdi, a clear reference to their ethnicity. Your link mentions other abuses. Your blase assumption that they were 'settled' comfortably in Turkey has no basis in fact. As your rather heartless position relies on this erroneous assumption for its validity, your position fails to establish its validity. It appears to be more a rationalisation of why you personally choose to do nothing to help people caught in their invidious position

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 6:31:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata They fled the war in Syria three years ago and settled in Turkey. There is no evidence to support the claim that the family had "settled in Turkey". Their failed application for asylum in Canada tells us that they hadn't "settled" at all but were looking to leave. I was talking about here on Earth (hint: Reuters). The family of two Syrian toddlers who drowned as they tried to reach Greece had not yet applied to enter Canada quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle In your link she describes the family's treatment by Turkish authorities as "horrible". There are references to enforced name changes - apparently the family name is Shenu but the Turks insisted on calling them Kurdi, a clear reference to their ethnicity. Your link mentions other abuses. Your blase assumption that they were 'settled' comfortably in Turkey has no basis in fact. Are you just making this shit up on your own, or are the voices in your lamp socket helping you? I didn't say "comfortably," I said they were renting a place and the father had work though not quite making ends meet. Also for your information, suffering "horrible" forced name changes does not constitute living in a war zone. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle As your rather heartless position relies on this erroneous assumption for its validity, your position fails to establish its validity. It appears to be more a case of why you personally chose to do nothing to help people caught in their invidious position Correction: The erroneous assumption that they were living "comfortably" that you made up. And yes, I'm sorry I didn't do anything. I was going to, but then I saw a gold-plated Ferrari that I liked and it slipped my mind. Bite me. K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 7:23:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata They fled the war in Syria three years ago and settled in Turkey. There is no evidence to support the claim that the family had "settled in Turkey". Their failed application for asylum in Canada tells us that they hadn't "settled" at all but were looking to leave. I was talking about here on Earth (hint: Reuters). The family of two Syrian toddlers who drowned as they tried to reach Greece had not yet applied to enter Canada From your link: "Speaking to Canadian press on Wednesday night, Abdullah Kurdi’s sister Tima, a hairdresser in Vancouver who emigrated 20 years ago, said the family’s application had been rejected. “I was trying to sponsor them, and I have my friends and my neighbours who helped me with the bank deposits, but we couldn’t get them out, and that is why they went in the boat,” she said. “I was even paying rent for them in Turkey, but it is horrible the way they treat Syrians there.” http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/father-drowned-boy-aylan-kurdi-return-syria It seems that in your haste to manufacture reasons to do nothing you have neglected to read your own link.

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 7:45:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata They fled the war in Syria three years ago and settled in Turkey. There is no evidence to support the claim that the family had "settled in Turkey". Their failed application for asylum in Canada tells us that they hadn't "settled" at all but were looking to leave. I was talking about here on Earth (hint: Reuters). The family of two Syrian toddlers who drowned as they tried to reach Greece had not yet applied to enter Canada From your link: "Speaking to Canadian press on Wednesday night, Abdullah Kurdi’s sister Tima, a hairdresser in Vancouver who emigrated 20 years ago, said the family’s application had been rejected. “I was trying to sponsor them, and I have my friends and my neighbours who helped me with the bank deposits, but we couldn’t get them out, and that is why they went in the boat,” she said. “I was even paying rent for them in Turkey, but it is horrible the way they treat Syrians there.” http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/father-drowned-boy-aylan-kurdi-return-syria It seems that in your haste to manufacture reasons to do nothing you have neglected to read your own link. You mean from one of my links. I posted three links. It seems that in your haste to strike back at being contradicted, you ignored the words "hint: Reuters". Early reports of a failed application for asylum (e.g., theguardian.com) were in error. The family of two Syrian toddlers who drowned as they tried to reach Greece had not yet applied to enter Canada, the extended family said on Thursday, despite earlier reports that their refugee application had been rejected. ~Reuters Thanks for playing. K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 7:59:46 AM)
Except the Guardian report also quotes a Canadian MP who had supported the bid for asylum: "*Tima Kurdi’s local MP, Fin Donnelly, who supported the family’s bid for asylum in Canada*, said the woman was distraught. “This tragic loss is just heartwrenching to go through. She was just completely upset and heartbroken.” http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/father-drowned-boy-aylan-kurdi-return-syria The application didn't succeed because of stonewalling by the Turkish authorities, who declined to supply the necessary paperwork, just another way they have of mistreating Kurds.

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 8:41:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Except the Guardian report also quotes a Canadian MP who had supported the bid for asylum: "*Tima Kurdi’s local MP, Fin Donnelly, who supported the family’s bid for asylum in Canada*, said the woman was distraught. “This tragic loss is just heartwrenching to go through. She was just completely upset and heartbroken.” http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/father-drowned-boy-aylan-kurdi-return-syria The application didn't succeed because of stonewalling by the Turkish authorities, who declined to supply the necessary paperwork, just another way they have of mistreating Kurds. Their application didn't succeed because it was never filed. You'll note that the story also says: Only applicants who have been formally designated refugees can make the G5 application that Kurdi’s sister would have sponsored... K.

MariaB -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 9:23:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata They fled the war in Syria three years ago and settled in Turkey. They are no longer fleeing war by any stretch of the imagination. What we have here is a father who, having decided to get his teeth fixed in Europe, put the lives of his entire family at risk in a scheme with smugglers who traffick in human cargo so he could sneak into another country illegally. I'm sorry for his bad luck. The end. 1.38 million Syrians who live outside the government-run refugee camps struggle to secure a minimum of social and economic rights, such as education, housing and healthcare. Many families live in abject poverty, often in unsanitary, even dangerous, housing conditions. According to the Turkish Disaster and Emergency Management Presidency (AFAD), only 15% of refugees outside of camps receive humanitarian aid. The Guardian This Syrian family could not claim political asylum in Turkey because Turkey will only accept the fleeing Syrians as temporary guests and with the rising tension towards Syrians in Turkey, its no surprise that families want to flee to safer havens. Because Turkey will not allow asylum applicants from Syria and because you have to of been accepted for asylum before you become a refugee, all those Syrians who have managed to escape their war torn land into Turkey are merely there on a temporary guest visa and in political terms are not seen as asylum seekers or refugees. As for his teeth, people don't get their teeth fixed for free in Europe. In the UK registering with an NHS dentist ( you still have to pay the NHS and they only offer very rudimentary treatments like fillings and tooth extractions) is virtually impossible and so people spend many thousands of pounds for dental work. Other parts of Europe costs less than the UK but if he had a fair amount of root canals he wouldn't be getting much change out of $3,000 and if he needed implants he'd be looking at $1,000 per implant, even in eastern European countries like Romania. For the papers to suggest this man was seeking a free dental system is ridiculous.

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 9:42:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB As for his teeth, people don't get their teeth fixed for free in Europe... For the papers to suggest this man was seeking a free dental system is ridiculous. What paper, specifically, suggested that he was seeking free dental care? K.

MariaB -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 10:11:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB As for his teeth, people don't get their teeth fixed for free in Europe... For the papers to suggest this man was seeking a free dental system is ridiculous. What paper, specifically, suggested that he was seeking free dental care? K. If he could afford it then why wouldn't he have the dental treatment done in Turkey? A lot of Brits go to Turkey for excellent dental treatment simply because its cheaper.

Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 10:22:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB As for his teeth, people don't get their teeth fixed for free in Europe... For the papers to suggest this man was seeking a free dental system is ridiculous. What paper, specifically, suggested that he was seeking free dental care? If he could afford it then why wouldn't he have the dental treatment done in Turkey? A lot of Brits go to Turkey for excellent dental treatment simply because its cheaper. That's not an answer to my question. But to answer yours, apparently Europe was his father's idea. I don't know why. Ms. Kurdi, speaking Thursday in a Vancouver suburb, said that their father, still in Syria, had suggested Abdullah go to Europe to get his damaged teeth fixed and find a way to help his family leave Turkey. ~WSJ K.

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