RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (Full Version)

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blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/10/2015 10:25:44 AM)

IS is a well organised and well equipped mercenary army to provide ethnic cleansing and rob and destroy whatever they can. It is a hardly a secret who supports them directly and indirectly. Most if not all of their religious agenda is just bait to get willing cannon fodder.

This does not make them less dangerous of course.




Politesub53 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/10/2015 4:06:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Are you and K suggesting he wasnt a refugee ....... Now that bollocks would be propaganda.

Well from the news reports we're seeing now, he wasn't a refugee fleeing war-torn Syria. He was a migrant from Turkey. Of course, if you think I wrote them and planted them as "propaganda" that's another matter.

K.



Your stupidity knows no bounds, yes he was in Turkey but he was still fleeing the violence in Syria. Dont you know whats going on regards the Kurds in Turkey as we speak. Do you really call that a "safe haven" because if so you have less credability than I already give you, and that is next to none.




Politesub53 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/10/2015 4:09:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

He's been living in Turkey for three years. He's not fleeing a war zone.

K.



You said it for me.

"I always cringe at this kind of puerile attempt at playing identity politics. Apparently your education failed to cover logical fallacies."





JVoV -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/10/2015 11:25:45 PM)

NY Times story

The US is increasing the total number of refugees allowed to come to the States to 75,000 with 10,000 or more of those coming from Syria in the next fiscal year (beginning October 1).




Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 3:01:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Are you and K suggesting he wasnt a refugee ....... Now that bollocks would be propaganda.

Well from the news reports we're seeing now, he wasn't a refugee fleeing war-torn Syria. He was a migrant from Turkey. Of course, if you think I wrote them and planted them as "propaganda" that's another matter.

Your stupidity knows no bounds, yes he was in Turkey but he was still fleeing the violence in Syria. Dont you know whats going on regards the Kurds in Turkey as we speak. Do you really call that a "safe haven" because if so you have less credability than I already give you, and that is next to none.

Did you really see those quoted words, "safe haven," in any of my posts, or have you been listening to the voices in your lamp socket again?

He exited Syria three years ago. In Turkey, he was not living in fear of armed teams assaulting his apartment building killing Kurds, and there are many countries where there is no war that are closer to Turkey than Western Europe. He was an economic migrant. To compare his difficulties to the plight of those souls still trying to escape Syria's killing fields is repugnant.

K.





cloudboy -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 8:57:12 AM)


Who are the financiers?




tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 9:03:05 AM)

To claim the Kurdi family are "economic migrant(s)" simply because he is out of the line of immediate fire is astonishing.

Mr Kurdi was a Syrian Kurd fleeing the war in Syria. He found some temporary respite in Turkey where he was allowed to have a subsistence level existence while subject to the considerable levels of hassle, discrimination and punishment that define Turkey's treatment of Kurds. His existence there was grudgingly tolerated.

Mr Kurdi could not elevate his situation to citizenship, he and other Kurds are all unable to find a lasting resolution of their issues in Turkey or other countries neighbouring Syria most of which are already struggling dealing the millions of Syrian refugees in their lands. So he sought a permanent solution to the problems he and his family faced in a country where they would be treated civilly and be entitled to all the rights and benefits that permanent residence/citizenship, a country where he and his family would be genuinely welcome, far away from any war zone. Initially he chose to go to Canada but Turkish bureaucracy sabotaged that, so he chose Western Europe instead.

He was trying to do the best for his family, what any of us would do in similar circumstances. All the above makes him a refugee fleeing war and its hideous consequences in my book. What is so difficult to understand about that? And who are we, thousands of kilometres away and living in war-free countries with all the benefits of wealthy democracies, to judge Mr Kurdi?




PeonForHer -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 9:14:19 AM)

quote:

Direct intervention by foreign Western military forces is not helpful - it is simply repeating one of the mistakes that caused IS to come into being in the first place. It is not even expedient - it allows IS to position itself as a 'defender' of 'Islamic values' against the foreign infidels. Western military intervention is the terrorists' best recruiting tool.

Australia has no business intervening in a vicious civil war in Syria, a war in which all the parties involved are pretty obnoxious. It is not our fight. IS needs to be exterminated but that task is the responsibility of regional and local forces.


I see you say 'direct intervention'. Would you go for indirect intervention - say, the supply of military hardware? I ask because it seems increasingly the case that Russia's support for the Assad regime is a key thing in keeping the Syria conflict going.




tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 9:25:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Direct intervention by foreign Western military forces is not helpful - it is simply repeating one of the mistakes that caused IS to come into being in the first place. It is not even expedient - it allows IS to position itself as a 'defender' of 'Islamic values' against the foreign infidels. Western military intervention is the terrorists' best recruiting tool.

Australia has no business intervening in a vicious civil war in Syria, a war in which all the parties involved are pretty obnoxious. It is not our fight. IS needs to be exterminated but that task is the responsibility of regional and local forces.


I see you say 'direct intervention'. Would you go for indirect intervention - say, the supply of military hardware? I ask because it seems increasingly the case that Russia's support for the Assad regime is a key thing in keeping the Syria conflict going.

I'm not sure that it is the case that "Russia's support for the Assad regime is a key thing in keeping the Syria conflict going". All parties in the Syrian conflict are receiving external support - Assad, IS, Nusra Front, Free Syrian Army, Hezbollah etc. I'm not sure that any one external partner can be singled out and said to be keeping the conflict going.

Syria is a battlefield where all kinds of local regional and international strategic 'games' are being played out with lethal consequences for the Syrian people.




kdsub -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 10:29:57 AM)

I don't believe you can turn a blind eye to the butchery of IS no matter what the reasons for its existence...It is not just Syria it will soon engulf all the middle east and why should it stop there? This is a world problem now and if not addresses now it will cost perhaps millions of lives down the road.

I can't in good conscious stand by while innocents are beheaded and burned alive... World heritage destroyed...and innocents enslaved... raped ...and murdered.

Tweak this must be stopped and your government must do its part as well as the rest of the civilized world....Otherwise this will just be the start of the refugee problem that may even find its way to your shores.

Butch




Politesub53 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 4:30:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Did you really see those quoted words, "safe haven," in any of my posts, or have you been listening to the voices in your lamp socket again?

He exited Syria three years ago. In Turkey, he was not living in fear of armed teams assaulting his apartment building killing Kurds, and there are many countries where there is no war that are closer to Turkey than Western Europe. He was an economic migrant. To compare his difficulties to the plight of those souls still trying to escape Syria's killing fields is repugnant.

K.



Whats repugnant is your crass stupidity in being able to understand a simple fact........ Turkey isnt safe for Kurds....end of story.

You can stuff your sanctimonius bullshit up your arse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34141716




Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/11/2015 11:52:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

He was trying to do the best for his family, what any of us would do in similar circumstances.

Given that the "circumstances" are that he's out of the war zone living in an apartment with an income and financial support from his family, to put the lives of his wife and small children at risk on open water in a 15-foot boat with no safety gear seems a very peculiar idea of what's "best" in the circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

All the above makes him a refugee fleeing war and its hideous consequences in my book. What is so difficult to understand about that? And who are we, thousands of kilometres away and living in war-free countries with all the benefits of wealthy democracies, to judge Mr Kurdi?

An Australian living in a war free country judges him to be "fleeing war" while piously importuning people who live in war free countries not to judge him. That's very droll. Is there a pony in the act?

K.




blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/12/2015 4:10:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Who are the financiers?


I guess, you mean financiers of IS

without being a financial expert myself, it has been repeated rather often lately that Saudi-Arabia and Qatar are supporting IS directly, a few other gulf states probably do so apparently too.
When IS started looting and destroying archeological sites, and archeologists identified finds from those sites appearing on the international antiquity and art market, one starts to wonder how that can be managed, transferring those things out and money in - there are not many ways to do that, without an access to sea ports or international airports. So one might assume that certain borders are wide open for IS.




Politesub53 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/12/2015 4:25:02 PM)

Blnymph. You are right in as much as Saudi, Qatar and other Gulf States were supporting IS. Now though IS is mostly self funding through extortion, capturing banks in Cities they over-run and selling oil from the Syrian oil fields, I think IS control all but one oil field at present.




tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/14/2015 8:47:56 AM)

This cartoon seems apt:


[image]local://upfiles/504455/101141F8C8544AB09F20A16877907C2B.jpg[/image]




blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/14/2015 10:14:41 AM)

There is still the problem of how IS can get oil on the market and money transferred




Politesub53 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/14/2015 4:12:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

There is still the problem of how IS can get oil on the market and money transferred


Not really, since its all done on the black market. Muslims have a banking system diffent to that of the west and much is done via intermediaries. Even Assads regime are said to be buying oil, thats not as far fetched as it seems as IS need cash and Assad needs oil. Turkey and other gulf States are also said to be buying oil for cash.




Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/15/2015 2:19:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Did you really see those quoted words, "safe haven," in any of my posts, or have you been listening to the voices in your lamp socket again?

He exited Syria three years ago. In Turkey, he was not living in fear of armed teams assaulting his apartment building killing Kurds, and there are many countries where there is no war that are closer to Turkey than Western Europe. He was an economic migrant. To compare his difficulties to the plight of those souls still trying to escape Syria's killing fields is repugnant.

Whats repugnant is your crass stupidity in being able to understand a simple fact........ Turkey isnt safe for Kurds....end of story.

You can stuff your sanctimonius bullshit up your arse.

Well we can say for sure that it isn't safe for Kurds who come into contact with people like Kurdi...

Iraqi couple allege Alan Kurdi's father was captain of the boat that capsized ~Toronto Sun
    A woman on the same boat as Alan Kurdi says the boy’s father is a people smuggler who begged her not to dob him in. Zainab Abbas said Abdullah Kurdi had lied to the world after the image of his dead three-year-old son on a Turkish beach sparked a global outpouring of support for Syrian refugees. “Yes, it was Abdullah Kurdi driving the boat,” Ms Abbas told Network Ten through her cousin Lara Tahseen today... the man she paid to book her passage told her it would be safe because the driver was taking his wife and two children... Ms Abbas said Mr Kurdi was speeding in the overcrowded boat, which did not have enough life jackets. She said her husband told him to be careful just before the boat capsized, reportedly killing at least 12 people.
Migrant crisis: father of dead toddler a ‘people smuggler’ ~The Australian
    An Iraqi couple who was on the doomed boat that capsized and killed three-year-old Alan Kurdi, says the boy's own father -- the only surviving member of his family -- was at the helm. "Yes, it was Abdullah Kurdi driving the boat," Zainab Abbas told Australian TV station Network Ten through her cousin Lara Tahseen. Abbas and Ahmad Hadi, who lost two children in the tragedy, told journalists in Baghdad that after the accident, Abdullah Kurdi begged them not to tell Turkish police he was in charge of the boat.

    Abdullah Kurdi has said he paid smugglers 4,000 euros for the deadly voyage -- the money his sister sent to him from Canada. But Abbas and Hadi told reporters that prior to the voyage, a smuggler they met in Turkey introduced them to Kurdi, saying he was the captain of the vessel and his own wife and children would be aboard. They said just minutes after departing the Turkish coast, one of Kurdi's sons started to cry, distracting the father just before the boat bashed into a wave and capsized. He had been speeding, Abbas told reporters, and wouldn't slow down. She said the overcrowded boat didn't have enough life-jackets.
Syrian boy's dad drove capsized boat that killed family, passengers say ~NY Post
    The father of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi was working with smugglers and driving the flimsy boat that capsized trying to reach Greece, other passengers on board said, in an account that disputes the version he gave last week. Ahmed Hadi Jawwad and his wife, Iraqis who lost their 11-year-old daughter and 9-year-old son in the crossing, told Reuters that Abdullah Kurdi panicked and accelerated when a wave hit the boat, raising questions about his claim that somebody else was driving the boat... He said Kurdi swam to them and begged them to cover up his true role in the incident. His wife confirmed the details. Jawwad said his point of contact with the smugglers was called Abu Hussein. “Abu Hussein told me that he (Kurdi) was the one who organized this trip,” he said.
You can stuff your sanctimonius bullshit up your arse.

K.




tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/15/2015 2:33:23 AM)

being satisfied
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't believe you can turn a blind eye to the butchery of IS no matter what the reasons for its existence...It is not just Syria it will soon engulf all the middle east and why should it stop there? This is a world problem now and if not addresses now it will cost perhaps millions of lives down the road.

I can't in good conscious stand by while innocents are beheaded and burned alive... World heritage destroyed...and innocents enslaved... raped ...and murdered.

Tweak this must be stopped and your government must do its part as well as the rest of the civilized world....Otherwise this will just be the start of the refugee problem that may even find its way to your shores.

Butch

We agree that IS is a vile bunch of thugs rapists and murderers who need to be exterminated. Nor do I have an issue with Western powers supplying local partners with the necessary arms to do the job, providing those partners are reasonably civilised in their behaviour ( which is a big ask in that region), or supporting those local actors with air power.

Where we disagree is that I do not see any benefits flowing from unilateral Western intervention. I would have no problem with Australian troops fighting IS if it was under the banner of the UN, or authorised by the UN Security Council, or if it was in response to a request by the legitimate Govt in whatever country our troops were needed, or even as part of a regional coalition comprising of the vast majority of countries in the region uniting to defeat IS. However in the absence of these preconditions being satisfied, unilateral Western military adventures won't deliver the results we desire. IMHO, it's far more likely that they will produce results opposite to those intended.

Unilateral Western military intervention is a big factor in creating the current mess - it is one of the main causes of the problem. I fail to see how one of the causes of a problem can be a solution to the problem.




blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/15/2015 5:23:21 AM)

For those who want some more details apart from that picture and its press coverage

While this thread has been going on several hundreds have drowned between Bodrum and Kos - last week more than 200

refugees arriving at Munich central station: last week Mo-Fr 51.000, last weekend + 15.000
refugees arriving in Austria within the last few days c 30.000
Hungary yesterday has closed the border to Serbia and emptied Röszke refugee camp, transporting refugees in trains to the border to Austria (no figures, estimates several thousands still in trains)
refugees in improvised camps (tents and open air) on the Serbian side of the border 6.000+



UNHCR has cut the food supplies in refugee camps in Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan asf by two thirds - they are running out of money and underfunded

France, the UK, the USA declared to take about c 20.000 Syrian refugees each (hopefully)
this is the about the number of refugees the city of Berlin only has taken so far in 2015 - just to give you some idea what is really going on and what the real problems are at the moment

there are thousands on the move, and there are hundreds dying





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