RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 10:46:20 AM)


You have the makings of a fine bureaucrat.



MariaB -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 10:56:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

That's not an answer to my question. But to answer yours, apparently Europe was his father's idea. I don't know why.


That article and the fact that you linked to it was misleading for the simple fact that you and that article were trivialising this mans plight and making him look like some greedy scrounger who was trying to head to the EU for his own gains. I merely de-trivialised it which needed to be done because most Americans probably aren't aware of the high dental costs in Europe.

Just because it wasn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't answer the question.



Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 11:05:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Just because it wasn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't answer the question.

MariaB:  For the papers to suggest this man was seeking a free dental system is ridiculous.
Kirata:  What paper, specifically, suggested that he was seeking free dental care?

You didn't answer the question.

K.




cloudboy -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 11:21:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Just because it wasn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't answer the question.

MariaB:  For the papers to suggest this man was seeking a free dental system is ridiculous.
Kirata:  What paper, specifically, suggested that he was seeking free dental care?

You didn't answer the question.

K.





See headline. Think about your focus here. Does it seem well directed?



Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 11:38:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Just because it wasn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't answer the question.

MariaB:  For the papers to suggest this man was seeking a free dental system is ridiculous.
Kirata:  What paper, specifically, suggested that he was seeking free dental care?

You didn't answer the question.

See headline. Think about your focus here. Does it seem well directed?

Well, I guess only if honesty is important and one values the truth. Thanks for asking.

K.



kdsub -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 11:54:10 AM)

And... maybe i am being too harsh... but my child would not slip from my hands... If he did not survive it would only be because I died trying to save him.

Butch



PeonForHer -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 11:55:17 AM)

FR

The crucial thing is that there's doubt thrown on the story behind the little boy's death. So we can go back to not giving a shit about him or all those other refugees. Result! [:)]



kdsub -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 11:59:51 AM)

Oh I'd never doubt the boy's death and the tragedy of it ...but I'll not respect the father that wouldn't jump in after him.

Butch



Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 12:00:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

The crucial thing is that there's doubt thrown on the story behind the little boy's death. So we can go back to not giving a shit about him or all those other refugees. Result! [:)]

That thought hadn't occurred to me, but be my guest.

K.



PeonForHer -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 12:14:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

The crucial thing is that there's doubt thrown on the story behind the little boy's death. So we can go back to not giving a shit about him or all those other refugees. Result! [:)]

That thought hadn't occurred to me, but be my guest.

K.




The story is being picked apart by some of the right wing papers here already, K. It does seem that the backlash against this sudden nationwide feeling of 'good samaritanism' is moving rapidly through the gears and will soon hit top speed. No great surprise, I suppose: too many people have built their strength on it for far too many years.



kdsub -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 12:21:51 PM)

Even if this particular incident is not what it was represented to be it is no less a tragedy...but the suffering of refugees is real and the media should focused on them.

Butch



bounty44 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 12:26:38 PM)

as a small but maybe still meaningful personal aside (and please, no insulting replies or personal attacks in response to this)...

when I first read the story, I was reminded of my undergraduate school having, when I first started, a swimming requirement for all students. you simply could not graduate unless you passed either an introductory level swimming class, or tested out of it. alas that policy disappeared when I was there, as well as from all over the country too.

at the same time, I am reminded of an interpretation from a sentiment one of the founding fathers of modern sociology saying "one of mankind's greatest problem is his distance from nature," (probably durkeim, but maybe weber) in this regard---so much of modern life and/or city life removes us from nature and the lives we'd have if we were not so urban and technological. to an extent then, many people grow up unprepared and not being able to handle nature when they are forced to interact with it.

im not meaning to criticize the father, and its relatively easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but along the lines of what butch said above, I don't think id be undertaking a boat trip, especially under less than ideal conditions, unless I could swim well, everyone in my family could swim well, and we were also otherwise prepared somehow for emergencies---learning how to survival float, flotation devices (commercial or homemade), rope, etc.

yes the man and his family are victims of the situation in Syria, and around the middle east and Europe, but they are also victims of a modern day ethos that perhaps puts too much trust in others. i know sometimes circumstances cause us to be in situations where risk is involved, but in so much as we are responsible for others (friends and family), or to others (rescue personal), i also think we have a responsibility to lessen the risk as much as we can.

i guess what i am saying is---this all makes me sad and i wish the man and his family had been prepared and that this hadn't happened to them.

also, while im here---for those of you kinda finding with kirata, I don't get for a moment that he is trying to trivialize the man's plight, but rather just taking him rightly out of the context of an acute refugee from the current war torn crisis situation in Syria. truth matters.



kdsub -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 12:41:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

also, while im here---for those of you kinda finding with kirata, I don't get for a moment that he is trying to trivialize the man's plight, but rather just taking him rightly out of the context of an acute refugee from the current war torn crisis situation in Syria.



Not kirata but since you addressed the post to me I'll comment...How many flies in the eyes of children did it take to kill 18 Americans and wound close to a hundred in Somalia where we were not wanted? I don't like to see the media try, on purpose or by incompetence, to shape world policy. Just report the facts they are bad enough.

Butch



bounty44 -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 12:46:24 PM)

i was just posting in the next open space, though yes I did mention you and kirata too...

and yes I agree with what you just now said...



blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/8/2015 1:53:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

he lived where and under what conditions in Turkey? no statements there

refugee camp? - one room with relatives? - five star hotel? - tent?


Aw c'mon. You didn't even read the links. They were renting and he had a job (hint: Wall Street Journal). Not quite making ends meet, but not living in a refugee camp or fleeing a war zone. Are we done here?

K.



I was maybe the first (after you posted) who read them and pointed at various contradictions from the beginning.
Since many of your favourite quotes are based just on one of them ie Wall Street Journal let's call the differences of this article and the others: it is the most fanciful, the most assuming, and the most biased. It is, probably, also your favourite article but nonetheless just of tabloid quality - something I d expect in the Sun for instance.

Another contradiction in your assumptions: If he had "settled", therefore resident and not refugee status in Turkey, the easiest (and cheapest) way to get to Europe would have been a plane ticket from Istanbul or Antalya to any European destination.

The "bargain" rate human traffickers take on the route from Turkey to central Europe or Sweden is about 2500 € per person (no half price rates for children) (Source: Spiegel 37, 5 Sep 2015, p. 14) - for the Bodrum-Kos passage 4 sea miles in a rubber dinghy 1000 € - that's how and where the drowning happened. Turkish and Greek coast guard and navy rescued more than 2000 last week who had sunk and/or gone overboard within these 4 sea miles



Those who are the on the move pay huge sums (another reason why those Syrians who arrive here are, as has been subjected already, not the paupers but middle class) to get illegally transported at all. The paupers cant afford to get out of Lebanon and Turkey.

so in fact the border blockade policy proves itself to be just a big support program for human trafficking - a bit like prohibition in the 1920s one might think which criminalised many and created huge profits for a few real criminals

I told you about the figures of refugees that have just arrived last Saturday and Sunday - this is the real problem that matters - these people have rights, and have needs.

just a margin: many in the Middle East and Northern and Central Africa where the coasts are far, surface water is rare, and in some regions risky (see Schistosomiasis), never learn to swim - tells more about the desperate situation they are in (and maybe even an unawareness of the risks of crossing the mediterranean sea)



Kirata -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/9/2015 1:32:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't like to see the media try, on purpose or by incompetence, to shape world policy...

[image]http://www.diarionoticias.pe/fdirimg/internacional/144147159103-Muerte-Siria-%282%29.jpg[/image]

This is what a climate refugee looks like

"Some of you know the underlying story of what caused the gates of hell to open in Syria," said former Vice President Al Gore in a speech he made on July 9 at Toronto’s Climate Summit of the Americas.

K.



tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/9/2015 3:02:33 AM)

Some good news to report on this dismal issue:

The overwhelming public sympathy for the refugees has forced the Australian Govt to agree to allocate 12,000 new spots on the Australian refugee intake system reserved for refugees fleeing war in the ME. Previously PM Abbott has insisted that any increase in the numbers of refugees fleeing war in Syria and other ME hotspots could only be at the expense of other refugees and refused to change the annual total refugee intake of c13,700. The Govt also declined to place discriminatory qualifiers on the intake, despite considerable pressure from its own right wing to prioritise accepting Christians over other religions.

However not all the news from Australia is good. While this increase is to be welcomed, to put it in context it is still only about a quarter of the German intake (on a per capita basis). Just in case anyone was under the impression that the hawkish PM had finally grasped that Western military intervention in the ME is one of the prime destabilising factors causing the surge in refugee numbers, the Govt also agreed that Australian aircraft could be used to bomb IS positions in Syria (Previously Australian military intervention was limited to Iraq). While this was said to be in response to a US request, leaks have revealed that Abbott himself was the prime mover behind this aggression, initiating the expansion by asking Obama to 'request' increased Australian air support. The purpose of these behind the scenes scheming is Abbott's desire to avoid being seen as a war monger while increasing our unpopular (with Aussies) military involvement. Fortunately most people see through this facade.

So a bit of a mixed bag really though I am sure the increase in refugee numbers to be accepted by Australia will be good news to the refugees. However the expansion of military aggression shows that neo cons don't learn new tricks - in fact they don't seem to have learnt anything at all from the entire Iraq fiasco. If you want foreign policy disasters be sure to elect a right wing Govt and you have practically guaranteed yourself that disasters will happen - the more right wing the Govt the greater the probability of a foreign policy disaster



blnymph -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/10/2015 6:13:04 AM)

some update - recent figures:

refugees arrived at Munich central station:
on Monday: 5.500
on Tuesday until noon: 1.300

in Vienna: c3.000

UNHCR figures:
in Macedonia at or approaching the Serbian border: 7.000

still on the Greek Aegean Isles: 30.000+, on Lesbos alone 20.000



kdsub -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/10/2015 8:16:22 AM)

Tweak... I know this is a little off subject but it struck me as odd. I mostly agree with you and always have about intervention in the Middle East... I am just not agreeing with you over the reasons we have intervened even if in my opinion they were a mistake... But... How we got to any one point in history should be taken into account but because of past errors we should not be afraid to move on with what we believe right today... So I ask you... how is providing support for the extermination of the abomination of Islam called ISS an aggression?

Butch



tweakabelle -> RE: Heartbreaking -- Drowned Syrian Boy -- Whole Family lost but Father (9/10/2015 9:43:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Tweak... I know this is a little off subject but it struck me as odd. I mostly agree with you and always have about intervention in the Middle East... I am just not agreeing with you over the reasons we have intervened even if in my opinion they were a mistake... But... How we got to any one point in history should be taken into account but because of past errors we should not be afraid to move on with what we believe right today... So I ask you... how is providing support for the extermination of the abomination of Islam called ISS an aggression?

Butch

Among other factors, IS is a direct consequence of Western military aggression in the region. It came into existence following the Iraq fiasco. It is an aggression to launch a bombing campaign in a country that hasn't requested it, whose permission wasn't even sought, without the blessing of international law or the UN Security Council. It is reminiscent of the expansion of the US's war in Vietnam into Laos and Cambodia. And I hope we all know the dangers of mission creep.

Direct intervention by foreign Western military forces is not helpful - it is simply repeating one of the mistakes that caused IS to come into being in the first place. It is not even expedient - it allows IS to position itself as a 'defender' of 'Islamic values' against the foreign infidels. Western military intervention is the terrorists' best recruiting tool.

Australia has no business intervening in a vicious civil war in Syria, a war in which all the parties involved are pretty obnoxious. It is not our fight. IS needs to be exterminated but that task is the responsibility of regional and local forces.



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