RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 7:49:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So who is left on the unprotected list??? a one eyed rooster and a three legged dog?

Lawyers and politicians LOL.



On that note we agree!




Real0ne -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 8:18:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
Obviously we need legislation to protect the unrecognized minority of Politician Americans from discrimination.

And also to protect the diets of Lion Americans.

I am waiting to see, despite its spelled out very clearly in the OP, how many people truly understand the meaning of what I posted and what needs to be done in this country to protect against the exponentially growing cancer in gubblemint.



I understand the meaning of your post/thread. Your butt-hurt that the anti-gay baker issue went so far against your party's righteousness

Frankly the hairstylist was unprofessional.

The bakers denied service at the start by discriminating based on one's protections as a citizen.





Joe, your believe if you even believe what you said in the first place that you understand the thread is purely in your imagination, you dont.

If you did understand the thread you would be able to directly rebut issues, you didnt.

Instead, as usual you need to reframe it completely outside the context of the argument and then argue your regurgitated puke in pretense that is what I said or implied or the meaning in which I intended to convey. It is your strawman Joe and has nothing to do with anything I intended to convey. [8|]

1) so no, unfortunately Joe, you do not understand.

2) No Joe, any literate person who has read the thread will find where I state "I AM ALL FOR GAYS GETTING MARRIED", and I did not state any political affiliation what so ever. Purely your vivid imagination is working over time again.

3) Joe there are no commercial professionalism standards required to have a religious right or the right to exercise the religious right.

4) Joe the bakers

a) REFUSED TO BE AN ACCESSORY IN THE COMMISSION OF A SIN AGAINST THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND

b) EXERCISED THEIR RELIGIOUS RIGHT

c) AS RESERVED IN THE 1ST AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.



How you concluded that is partisan politics I wont even hazard a guess, but feel free to post something that addresses the issues under discussion if you with to make a worthwhile contribution to the thread.

Since you look in the mirror and believe yourself to be a law scholar, it should be very simple for you to explain how a subset of the supreme organic law mysteriously trumps its creator (the supreme organic law of the land) resulting in the supreme organic law of the land to be trampled by those sworn to uphold it.

This mean that that the courts have chosen to uphold the gays right to exercise their religion and refused to uphold the christains right to exercise their religion.

This has nothing to do with partisan drivel Joe, just law. So feel free to fill us in and directly rebut the issues at hand leaving out the usual partisan politics and rhetorical drivel, (in less than 100,000 words please). [8D]









Real0ne -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 8:59:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

They were refused because to provide the gays the service they demanded would force them to become an accessory to sin therefore commit a crime against their religion and person.

What utter bollocks.




What is Complicity or Accomplice Liability?

Complicity is the act of helping or encouraging another individual to commit a crime. It is also commonly referred to as aiding and abetting. One who is complicit is said to be an accomplice. But, even though an accomplice does not actually commit the crime, his or her actions helped someone in the commission of the crime. [In this case the crime of sin, a clearly and well defined religious edict, that man shall not have sex with man and woman shall not have sex with woman]

The concept of accomplice liability means an accomplice faces the same degree of guilt and punishment as the individual who committed the crime. Indeed, accomplices can face the same penalties, including prison time. The key consideration is whether the individual intentionally and voluntarily encouraged or assisted in the commission of the crime, or (in some cases) failed to prevent it.

See FindLaw's Criminal Charges section for additional articles and resources.
- See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/what-is-complicity-or-accomplice-liability.html#sthash.EhXfHKS9.dpuf


GAY as in sleeping with one of the same sex is not new and runs against age old RELIGIOUS LAWS, despite modern subterfuge to change its long held well understood meaning through out the centuries.

Leviticus 18 and 20
Main article: Leviticus 18
See also: Abomination (Bible)

Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code and list prohibited forms of intercourse, contain the following verses:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."[1]

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."[2]

The two verses have historically been interpreted by Jews and Christians as clear blanket prohibitions against homosexual acts. More recent interpretations focus on its context as part of the Holiness Code, a code of purity meant to distinguish the behavior of Israelites from the Canaanites.[3]

When all else fails change its meaning by REDEFINING IT as something OTHER than it's originally intended meaning by exchanging it with a jazzy political twist and simply label it 'MODERN', and then substitute the new 'MODERN' political false overlay and force it upon your political opponents in pretense that is 'really' what was the original intent despite the new 'modern politically motivated' meaning is precisely opposite of the long held age old original meaning over thousands of years. Nothing more than legislation or governance by sleight of hand trick



quote:

"In Europe people are starting to be jailed for saying what they think." Those words were spoken by Vladimir Palko, the Slovak Interior Minister, in a strongly worded protest to the Swedish ambassador to Slovakia. The minister's comments represented outrage over the jailing of a Christian pastor for preaching against homosexuality. The arrest of this pastor in Sweden is only a foretaste of what is to come, if homosexual advocates and their ideology gain traction in the United States and other nations.

Ake Green, pastor of a Pentecostal congregation in Kalmar, Sweden, was sentenced to one month in prison on a charge of inciting hatred against homosexuals. Pastor Green was prosecuted for his sermon in a January hearing, where he was found guilty of "hate speech against homosexuals" for a sermon preached in 2003.

The prosecution of a Christian pastor for the crime of preaching a biblical sermon sets a new low for the culture of political correctness. Evangelical Christians--and all those who cherish civil liberties--should observe this case with great interest and concern. Those who reject biblical truth are now set on silencing Christian pulpits--all in the name of tolerance, acceptance, and diversity.

The logic of this prosecution is driven by the ardent determination of homosexual activists to make all criticism of homosexuality illegal. The logic of many hate crimes statutes plays right into this ideological strategy. By silencing all opposition, advocates for the normalization of homosexuality have the public square entirely to themselves, with defenders of biblical sexuality and the traditional family left without a voice and risking prosecution for any language or argument deemed offensive by the guardians of political correctness.




This leaves one with no other conclusion that state actions of forced acceptance of gay religious principles in violation of others rights to follow law that has existed before any governments, that the present day government is waging on its people when its actions run outside the long and well established due process of law very clearly demonstrating that gays and their supporters are outlaws who respect no one elses rights but their own.

So what makes you think thats its fair gays have a greater right to exercise their religion than the christians do?



I am hoping someone can step up to the plate and show something, anything at all that demonstrates the US idiocracy and its jester court system has devolved into anything but political. Show me the rule of law that gives these courts jurisdiction over religious matters or even show how a religious matter can be justly adjudicated under a commercial venue?


and I will repeat that I am all for gays rights or anyone elses right to marry whoever or whatever, even their pet rock for all I care. This is a constitution matter and question of law.







MercTech -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 12:49:51 PM)

I see a binary division in philosophy on the topic.

A> Does a person have a right to refuse service in thier own place of business.

B> A person doing business is required to provide service to anyone who wants it.

Scenarios to consider:
Drunk and belligerent demanding special service and frightening the rest of the customers.
Customer with no hair, multiple Nazi tattoos, and a KKK T-shirt.
Hood rat with a pistol stuffed down the back of his pants and obviously on some sort of drug complete with twitches and continually scratching (crack crawlies is the street jargon)
Flaming queen type leading a fellow on a leash in a "family resturant".
Jehovah Witness handing out pamphlets to everyone in your place of business.
Not so applicable today with debit cards but in the past habitual check bouncers would be banned from businesses.

At what point are you allowed to say "you are not welcome here"?

The federal laws have been interpreted to require equal treatment in essential services such as those necessary for food and shelter. The interpretation as to what constitutes an essential service is interpreted in state law.





CreativeDominant -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 1:24:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So who is left on the unprotected list??? a one eyed rooster and a three legged dog?

On the unprotected list?

That would be white males who are not:
Gay
Mentally challenged
Physically challenged
Emotionally traumatized
Driving an environmentally friendly automobile

And Who:
Work
Profess Christian affiliation
Smoke




thompsonx -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 2:51:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So who is left on the unprotected list??? a one eyed rooster and a three legged dog?

On the unprotected list?

That would be white males who are not:
Gay
Mentally challenged
Physically challenged
Emotionally traumatized
Driving an environmentally friendly automobile

And Who:
Work
Profess Christian affiliation
Smoke

Since christian white males who had no mental,emotional or physical defects who smoked and drove slaves for a living were the ones who made up the rules to begin with. Wouldn't those be the ones from which the protected classes need protection?




Politesub53 -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 4:28:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So who is left on the unprotected list??? a one eyed rooster and a three legged dog?

On the unprotected list?

That would be white males who are not:
Gay
Mentally challenged
Physically challenged
Emotionally traumatized
Driving an environmentally friendly automobile

And Who:
Work
Profess Christian affiliation
Smoke


Cry me a river, build yourself a bridge and get the fuck over it.

Your constant whining about people being called on for their pathetic views on those who are

Not white and are,
Gay
Mentally challenged
Physically challenged
Emotionally traumatized
Driving an environmentally friendly automobile

Opps, I seem to have used your list, what a coincidence. [8|]






dcnovice -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 5:18:47 PM)

FR

Interesting read.

http://www.kentucky.com/2015/09/13/4034286_kentucky-clerk-case-divides-religious.html?rh=1




dcnovice -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 6:39:32 PM)

quote:

At what point are you allowed to say "you are not welcome here"?

I doubt there's an easy answer to that, and it might help all around if everyone agreed to recognize that this is a tough balancing act.

Few of us, I suspect/hope, would want to return to the days of "Whites Only" and restrictive covenants. (The latter, for all I know, may still exist.) Or when 40 firms refused even to interview Stanford Law graduate Sandra Day O'Connor simply because she was a woman.

On the other hand, I'd like people to have as much choice as possible in selecting their customers and associates. Should I ever meet Mr. Right, I certainly don't want anyone working on my wedding who doesn't view it as a great opportunity. Coercion rarely brings out the best in people. (And frankly, given the events-planning biz, I'd have major doubts about, say, a florist who wasn't gay-friendly.) But then I have the luxury of living in a city, where options abound. A couple in rural Flyovia might have limited choices.

One story from a friend's (opposite-sex) wedding has always stayed with me. She and her husband wanted a church ceremony, but weren't affiliated with a congregation. So I connected them with the associate rector, a woman, of my Episcopal parish. She did the service--beautifully. Afterwards, the bride's devout Catholic uncle took her aside and said, "I had no idea what we were missing out on, not having women priests." Moments like that, rather than force, win hearts and minds.

Then there's the whole thorny business of public servants, such as Kim Davis. Reasonable people can disagree over the merits of the SCOTUS decision and whether the issue would have been better handled legislatively. Yet her repeated defiance of a judge's orders and her refusal to allow her deputies to do their jobs either (which they had no problem executing once she was out of their hair) should trouble anyone concerned with the rule of law. Given her high-octane "Christian" counsel, I suspect we're seeing less a real battle of conscience than the first sally in a long war of attrition over marriage equality, much as we've seen over abortion.




Real0ne -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 7:33:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

At what point are you allowed to say "you are not welcome here"?

I doubt there's an easy answer to that



I thought the answer was pretty easy.....
quote:


First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech


Is anyone willing to argue the kliens were able to freely exercise their religion as reserved for precisely these occasions? Rather than accomodate the kentucky woman they fined her too and threw her in jail. Now in mnsho these people we denied their constitutionally protected right by the government its bureaucracy and its courts.




dcnovice -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 7:47:08 PM)

quote:

I thought the answer was pretty easy.....

I'm sure you did.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 8:04:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So who is left on the unprotected list??? a one eyed rooster and a three legged dog?

On the unprotected list?

That would be white males who are not:
Gay
Mentally challenged
Physically challenged
Emotionally traumatized
Driving an environmentally friendly automobile

And Who:
Work
Profess Christian affiliation
Smoke

Since christian white males who had no mental,emotional or physical defects who smoked and drove slaves for a living were the ones who made up the rules to begin with. Wouldn't those be the ones from which the protected classes need protection?
Perhaps if things were the same as 250 yrs ago...in case you hadn't noticed, slavery is gone and laws have changed.




Real0ne -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 8:04:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I thought the answer was pretty easy.....

I'm sure you did.

well if you sell a gun knowing that the person you sell it to is going to use it in a crime that makes you an accessory in the commission of a crime and you get tossed in jail.

That said; as I pointed out earlier these people are standing up in defense of the right to exercise their religion. Being gay is a sin [crime] against their God. For them to support gays religion by baking cakes with gay marital figurines or sign marriage certificates is forcing them int o a position of being an accessory to the commission of a crime against the religion and the God they believe in. If it is acceptable to damn someone to jail for being an accessory to a crime say bank robbery, why would God not damn them to hell for being an accessory to the crime of knowingly promoting homosexuals or homosexuality with their services?

Then in the case of Davis there is yet another argument that we need to dispose of in addition to the forcing her to be an accessory to the commission of a sin [crime against God and religion].

We have the old nuremburg defense: (remember?)

The Nuremberg Defense;


The Nuremberg Defense refers to a legal strategy employed by many of the defendants at the Nuremberg war crimes trials seeking to convict Nazi perpetrators of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Second World War. Many of those defendants claimed that they were not guilty of the charges against them as they were "only following orders."

Adolf Eichmann was one of the most prominent Nazis to use this defense at his trial (held in Israel in 1961).

“”I cannot recognize the verdict of guilty. . . . It was my misfortune to become entangled in these atrocities. But these misdeeds did not happen according to my wishes. It was not my wish to slay people. . . . Once again I would stress that I am guilty of having been obedient, having subordinated myself to my official duties and the obligations of war service and my oath of allegiance and my oath of office, and in addition, once the war started, there was also martial law. . . . I did not persecute Jews with avidity and passion. That is what the government did. . . . At that time obedience was demanded, just as in the future it will also be demanded of the subordinate.


well they hung him anyway. Because I was just following orders is not a defense, why should it be a defense when answering to God when its not a defense for answering to man?





CreativeDominant -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 8:06:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So who is left on the unprotected list??? a one eyed rooster and a three legged dog?

On the unprotected list?

That would be white males who are not:
Gay
Mentally challenged
Physically challenged
Emotionally traumatized
Driving an environmentally friendly automobile

And Who:
Work
Profess Christian affiliation
Smoke


Cry me a river, build yourself a bridge and get the fuck over it.

Your constant whining about people being called on for their pathetic views on those who are

Not white and are,
Gay
Mentally challenged
Physically challenged
Emotionally traumatized
Driving an environmentally friendly automobile

Opps, I seem to have used your list, what a coincidence. [8|]



Not really, given your lack of imagination and hater attitude.




dcnovice -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/13/2015 8:34:10 PM)

quote:

in case you hadn't noticed, slavery is gone and laws have changed.

Yes, slavery is gone. Deo gratias!

Whether its effects--or those of the decades of segregation, terrorizing, disenfranchisement, and systemic impoverishment that followed--are gone as well is another question entirely.

There are probably people alive today who attended segregated schools or were turned away from the polls or saw their fathers being called "Boy" by strangers on the street.




thompsonx -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/14/2015 5:30:48 AM)

quote:

Perhaps if things were the same as 250 yrs ago...in case you hadn't noticed, slavery is gone and laws have changed.


In case you hadn't read the doj report on fergustan not much has changed. The thugs with guns and badges were extorting a couple of million dollars a year from the decendents of slaves...it would appear that the only change has been in uniform, white robes and hoods for cop unforms and judges robes.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/14/2015 8:32:25 AM)

If you seriously think that's all that's changed, then I guess all those programs the Dems keep setting up and folks keep voting for themselves aren't worth what were told they are, are they?




thompsonx -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/14/2015 9:30:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

If you seriously think that's all that's changed, then I guess all those programs the Dems keep setting up and folks keep voting for themselves aren't worth what were told they are, are they?


Which of those programs enabled the fergustan pd and courts to extort 2 million dollars a year from the dencendents of slaves?




thompsonx -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/14/2015 9:32:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

If you seriously think that's all that's changed, then I guess


When you come to a discussion ignorant of all the issues in the discussion then a guess is all you have.








Politesub53 -> RE: Gay lives Matter and Matter and Matter! (9/14/2015 4:16:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Not really, given your lack of imagination and hater attitude.



I dont hate people, just your bullshit phobic led politics. If that bothers you, tough shit.




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