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Shock collars - 10/7/2015 7:00:42 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		We've recently, after spending a lot of time researching and trying to find answers, acquired a remote control shock collar.
We're fully intending at this point to use it on the neck, as intended on dogs.

That being said, we're taking it incredibly slow, and starting out at very low settings and levels (lowest setting on the one we got is barely even noticeable, akin to the 'tingling' sensation a TENS unit gives on low settings).
Throughout our research, we've heard all the warnings about this being dangerous, because it can cause burns, cardiac arrest, muscle spasms, throat collapse, suffocation from throat muscles tensing, etc.

However, in all of our research, we didn't find a SINGLE documented case, anywhere, of something actually going seriously wrong, or fatally wrong with one of these things. On humans or on animals for that matter.

I can find all kinds of horror stories in the kink community of people saying these things are dangerous and can kill you, because that's what they heard, but I can't actually find any evidence of it ever happening.
Likewise I can find all kinds of horror stories, mostly on animal welfare group pages, saying that these things can seriously harm and/or kill dogs, but I can't actually find any documented evidence of a dog dying from the use of a shock collar.

At the same time, the net is littered with videos of pet owners using these things on themselves, before putting it on their dog, or on their buddies while they're drunk, and so on.

One would think that, given the fact that so many people have tried it (both kinksters and vanillas), and the animal welfare groups are so bend on prohibiting these things, that IF there were documented fatality cases, in either humans or pets, they'd be relatively easy to find.
They're not. As far as I can tell, there aren't any documented fatalities at all, or serious injuries at all, with the notable exception of dogs getting their collars stuck on stuff and shocking to death.

That being said: I am well aware of the fact that the absence of negative evidence does not prove safety.
Just because there currently is no proof (or I can't find it) that they're really dangerous, doesn't mean they're actually safe... so perhaps I'll become the first documented case of a fatality of a dog shock collar in a kinky context.

Before risking being the first documented fatality I want to try one last time though: Is anybody aware of any DOCUMENTED evidence -no hearsay, unsubstantiated horror stories, or myths please- of something seriously going wrong when using a dog shock collar on humans?




< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 10/7/2015 7:07:48 AM >

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 7:58:22 AM   
MissKatya


Posts: 341
Joined: 12/21/2007
From: NYC
Status: offline 		I haven't heard of anything bad about using shock collars on humans. I supposed the common sense approach would be not to use it on someone wearing a pacemaker, not near the heart, etc, etc. But overall, I haven't heard of anything resulting directly from using a shock collar.

I use them but they are attached onto the "other head" (aka penis). I've never had a sub wear them on the neck. Always on the dick.

Sorry I can't be much help on this one :(

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 7:59:42 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have done a fair share of research and haven't heard a thing about dog collars. Personally I prefer them on the upper leg.

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 8:03:55 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
with the notable exception of dogs getting their collars stuck on stuff and shocking to death.




Should have been:

stuck on stuff and choking to death.

Sorry for the confusion.

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 8:09:12 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		the only thing Im aware of is the difference between a human neck and a dog neck, we sweat....(water and salts) and dogs have hair.... so it may be more powerful buzz..but like you Ive not heard of one fatality.

Really wouldnt want anyone I "know" being the first...have fun,

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 8:27:34 AM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
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Status: offline 		https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_collar#Scientific_studies

Some of those studies show an increase in stress in the animals.. especially when shocked not knowing when or which behavior triggered the shock..

Also can probably go through and find where the studies show how the dogs were burned and such.. as it mentions that in there as well..

< Message edited by SinFix -- 10/7/2015 8:29:42 AM >

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 8:44:06 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

Some of those studies show an increase in stress in the animals.. especially when shocked not knowing when or which behavior triggered the shock..



Increased stress is part of the point. There is very little play I engage in which does not drastically increase stress, seeing that fear play is at the top of my list.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_collar#Scientific_studies

Also can probably go through and find where the studies show how the dogs were burned and such.. as it mentions that in there as well..


Where does it say that the studies show that dogs were burned and such? (For that matter, what's the "such"?) Please quote me the exact section where it says that the studies show dogs were burned.

I just reread the wiki article for the 4th time.
The only reference to burns I can find is PETA making the claim that burns can happen, and the mention that so far, all of PETA's claims regarding shock collar dangers have been unsubstantiated.


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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:02:11 AM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		This was under the technical consideration part..

Over 31 years ago, in the USA, the Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM), a branch of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), "concurred" in regulatory action against a manufacturer of a bark collar, stating "Complaints received, which were later corroborated by our own testing, included severe burns in the collar area and possible personality adjustment injuries to the dogs. The shocking mechanism was found to be activated not only by barking but by vehicle horns, slamming doors or any other loud noise. CVM concurred in regulatory action against the device since it was deemed to be dangerous to the health of the animal." [6] However, physical injuries have not been shown to occur with current collars[citation needed].

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:13:29 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I presume you've had an EKG done sometime and know you have normal heart rhythms. High school football is safe for most kids but if there's an unknown heart problem, it can be fateful. That's why they need a physical first.

I have an abnormality of my heart. I have to get a stress test before any operation to be cleared. As long as I get the okay, I'll be fine. But if I had to have the operation and didn't pass the stress test, there's a risk of dying on the table.

So for me, the risk would be higher. I would imagine that as long as your EKG is normal you should be fine. But there are groups run by medical professionals on fet, I'd suggest you ask there. Or your own doctor.

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:13:52 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		have to say I would never use on on a dog, even tho we have a dog three doors down that barks inccessantly. shudder.
On a human...yeah...
im not as ...hard a player as Ishtar, but I do love electrical play. With caveats.

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:16:22 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

This was under the technical consideration part..

Over 31 years ago, in the USA, the Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM), a branch of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), "concurred" in regulatory action against a manufacturer of a bark collar, stating "Complaints received, which were later corroborated by our own testing, included severe burns in the collar area and possible personality adjustment injuries to the dogs. The shocking mechanism was found to be activated not only by barking but by vehicle horns, slamming doors or any other loud noise. CVM concurred in regulatory action against the device since it was deemed to be dangerous to the health of the animal." [6] However, physical injuries have not been shown to occur with current collars[citation needed].


Thanks, I totally managed to miss that several times.

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:17:46 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I presume you've had an EKG done sometime and know you have normal heart rhythms.


EKG and EEG, as well as a full physical.

Clean bill of health.

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I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:20:39 AM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		No problem.. I was just looking for sources for you.. that seemed to give some ideas on studies and such..

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:21:03 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

im not as ...hard a player as Ishtar


Funny thing is that I still have issues considering myself a "hard player" because I'm so not a pain slut. I love fear play, and consensual nonconsent, but in a situation where I have to give continued consent to play with something, I crap out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before some other people I know who play at our club.

That being said, I think since I'm looking to 'graduating' to shock collars on the neck, because cattle prods have gotten too boring because of their predictability and ability to anticipate them because of the charge tone, I'm going to have to abide by the judgement that I do indeed like to play rather hard.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:34:45 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Cattle prods are boring?
I never found that to be so. In fact I enjoy the anticipatory sounds prior to the shock... or not. When I was actively playing my partner enjoyed the mental aspects of play. He created toys so that the noise was part of the game. Sometimes the shock would be with the noise. Sometimes there would be noise but no shock. I never knew if the noise meant I would be shocked or if I would react to the noise as if I were shocked. On those times where I might react and it was only noise, I would get a pinch, slap, or something else because I was "pretending" to react. Fun stuff.
As for the shock collars, you might want to see if they have made any improvements since that study 30 yrs ago. I can't imagine them keeping a product on the market if it caused damage. People tend to react when animals are being mistreated.
I do, did, get small marks under the spot where the collar shocks. Burns I guess, but nothing worse than one might get from the prod, or the flyswatter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
That being said, I think since I'm looking to 'graduating' to shock collars on the neck, because cattle prods have gotten too boring because of their predictability and ability to anticipate them because of the charge tone



_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Shock collars - 10/7/2015 9:36:38 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

im not as ...hard a player as Ishtar


Funny thing is that I still have issues considering myself a "hard player" because I'm so not a pain slut. I love fear play, and consensual nonconsent, but in a situation where I have to give continued consent to play with something, I crap out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before some other people I know who play at our club.

That being said, I think since I'm looking to 'graduating' to shock collars on the neck, because cattle prods have gotten too boring because of their predictability and ability to anticipate them because of the charge tone, I'm going to have to abide by the judgement that I do indeed like to play rather hard.


:)
I enjoy the hell out of your posts...I learn :)


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RE: Shock collars - 10/8/2015 11:22:52 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		No documented cases of serious harm is not necessarily that reassuring, given that Tasers were sold to us as a "safe" alternative to other forms of force, yet have killed a number of people, including those who seemed to have no cardiac arrhythmia or other underlying medical condition.

I suppose the "safety" of the electric shock dog collar comes from the low level of current involved, but for a definitive answer, you need a large enough sample to be sure. Given that shocking a sub when s/he least expects it is not a certified or well-researched use of such a collar, such evidence isn't going to emerge.

As a society, we got the large sample type of evidence with Tasers unfortunately by assaulting a large number of citizens, and then having to apologise to some of their families for the injuries and deaths caused as a result.

But in truth, nothing is completely safe, and a shock collar seems more cruel than dangerous, which would seem to be exactly the point. In a world where people die crossing the road, jogging, taking a shit and climaxing with their lovers, perhaps a minor electro-cardiac risk, if understood by all parties, isn't a huge problem.


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RE: Shock collars - 10/8/2015 11:26:29 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		the Tasers you can get are not the Tasers the cops can get.



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RE: Shock collars - 10/8/2015 11:57:09 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

No documented cases of serious harm is not necessarily that reassuring, given that Tasers were sold to us as a "safe" alternative to other forms of force, yet have killed a number of people, including those who seemed to have no cardiac arrhythmia or other underlying medical condition.

I suppose the "safety" of the electric shock dog collar comes from the low level of current involved, but for a definitive answer, you need a large enough sample to be sure. Given that shocking a sub when s/he least expects it is not a certified or well-researched use of such a collar, such evidence isn't going to emerge.

As a society, we got the large sample type of evidence with Tasers unfortunately by assaulting a large number of citizens, and then having to apologise to some of their families for the injuries and deaths caused as a result.

But in truth, nothing is completely safe, and a shock collar seems more cruel than dangerous, which would seem to be exactly the point. In a world where people die crossing the road, jogging, taking a shit and climaxing with their lovers, perhaps a minor electro-cardiac risk, if understood by all parties, isn't a huge problem.



Your comments indicate you haven't looked very hard.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=serious+harm+from+shock+collars&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=57cWVr7_B4viUf_Pg5gE
That tells me that shock collars are not reliable and can indeed cause severe harm and even death.

Excerpt from one of the top-most listed sites: "...known to short circuit when they get wet causing severe injury and sometimes death."
So much for you stating "No documented cases of serious harm...".


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RE: Shock collars - 10/8/2015 12:41:51 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

No documented cases of serious harm is not necessarily that reassuring, given that Tasers were sold to us as a "safe" alternative to other forms of force, yet have killed a number of people, including those who seemed to have no cardiac arrhythmia or other underlying medical condition.

I suppose the "safety" of the electric shock dog collar comes from the low level of current involved, but for a definitive answer, you need a large enough sample to be sure. Given that shocking a sub when s/he least expects it is not a certified or well-researched use of such a collar, such evidence isn't going to emerge.

As a society, we got the large sample type of evidence with Tasers unfortunately by assaulting a large number of citizens, and then having to apologise to some of their families for the injuries and deaths caused as a result.

But in truth, nothing is completely safe, and a shock collar seems more cruel than dangerous, which would seem to be exactly the point. In a world where people die crossing the road, jogging, taking a shit and climaxing with their lovers, perhaps a minor electro-cardiac risk, if understood by all parties, isn't a huge problem.



Your comments indicate you haven't looked very hard.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=serious+harm+from+shock+collars&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=57cWVr7_B4viUf_Pg5gE
That tells me that shock collars are not reliable and can indeed cause severe harm and even death.

Excerpt from one of the top-most listed sites: "...known to short circuit when they get wet causing severe injury and sometimes death."
So much for you stating "No documented cases of serious harm...".



I suppose my post might have been better signposted.

Although referring to harm to humans (and not to animals), I did not make that clearly stress that every time I mentioned harm or risk. The lack of evidence I was referring to was the lack of research evidence into human use, as it is unlikely that a large enough trial/research project (or indeed any such research) would ever be run. This of course is my opinion on probability, which may well be proved wrong shortly when someone posts a link to a large scale study into human sexual use of shock collars.

What my post suggested was that there was certainly a risk of harm to humans, but the precise nature of that harm was not clear.

The evidence is terms of harm to animals is quite different and not something I would contest. It was not however something I was addressing in my post. For the avoidance of doubt, I will address it now.

The use of shock collars on dogs is potentially physically and psychologically damaging. As such it is my belief that clearly constitutes animal cruelty. If someone feels they have a situation in which a shock collar is required they should be thinking very seriously about how they are managing the training and behaviour of the dog, the risks posed by that dog's behaviour and/or the risks inherent in the environment. Thinking that there is no alternative but to deliver an electric shock to an animal, who should never require it, says a lot about what kind of dog owner you are. Other posters have included statements about current shock collars not burning the dog, but the psychological effects of using this sort of control must be a cause for concern.

However, the use of such a device to control a dog who cannot possibly consent, or in a meaningful way understand its use, is entirely different from kinksters fully consenting in the knowledge that there is a risk to their health.

The careful use of such a device between consenting adults is a whole different ball game, the risks of which are their business. This specific use of a shock collar, unless it becomes a common sexual practice, is unlikely to be the subject of serious published research, but people's risk-aware use of such a device is for them to assess as competent adults.

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