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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 6:36:06 AM

HAK1M

Posts: 172
Joined: 11/2/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: J0K3ER

excuse me here goddess of logic I cant bite my tongue. explain this to me . how can a pendulum swing in only one direction .......thats all.
check mate.... rematch.

It's an English saying sweetie. Don't think too much about sayings... it will make your head hurt.

But for your education: in the case of this saying it applies to slow social changes that appear over great lengths of time, and the metaphorical pendulum swings at the rate of history occurring (IE very slowly). It is meant to imply that in this slow swinging pendulum that follows history, we've reached one extreem (in my use case the historical lack of the need for sexual consent from women) and we're now on the way back to the other extreme (in this use case, the trend to muddle up the need for consent to an absurdity).

For whose education exactly?. The misuse of a slow swinging pendulum as a metaphor to portray "evolution" as a back and fourth mouvement was a little goofy. However your justification was even worse. I don't see any similarity between the progressive mouvment of evolution, and the going back and fourth of something like a pendulum. Now your pendulum is falling backwards taking the whole feminism ordeal to its primitive stage. BTW...This is for your education also

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 21

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 11:57:21 AM

WickedsDesire

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I am me. Who I have always been. I can be no more or less. Your malarkey regarding inclusive makes no sense.
Vanilla does not exist anywhere in the sense you mean it.

If you are alluding to there is no one on earth that is 100% dominant or submissive – save real loons; Hitler, Pol Pot, Pot Noodles – I agree – and what of a common liar what should we do with them lock them for everyone’s own good or hurl them into the nearest volcano.
Anything other than trusisms can be twisted and the twisted procalimed as fact - one cannot help that lot they must be shown the mace

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 22

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 1:19:07 PM

LadyPact

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For those holding raffle tickets, please check your numbers. We have a winner. Post #22 has invoked Godwin's Law. Link here: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law

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Post #: 23

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 1:44:39 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For those holding raffle tickets, please check your numbers. We have a winner. Post #22 has invoked Godwin's Law. Link here: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law

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Post #: 24

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 1:51:02 PM

UllrsIshtar

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All other things considering, it really is surprising how little "Because Hitler." gets argued on this forum.

I think we're an anomaly.

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Post #: 25

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 7:20:24 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

All-inclusive does not work. In my opinion, we should not be following the "all-inclusive" mantra.

Oh, you're (supposedly) kinky? That's awesome. What else are you?

In regular, vanilla society, we don't do the "all-inclusive" thing. We recognize that, as a society, there are some folks who need to be removed from the rest of us. Generally, it's called "prison". These are people that we recognize that they kill, rape, abuse, stalk, threaten, and do other things to various members of society.

So, if we understand that "all-inclusive" doesn't work in vanilla life, why are we so quick to do it in kink world? We KNOW we have kinky people in our midst who are rather despicable creatures. Is that money at the door for the local kink group really worth it? Perhaps a new screen name? Hey, if Whiskey Business or Mr Handcuffs show up again before their murder trials, are folks going to be ok with that, too?

It's time for decent people to say, "no, you can't be here".

(I have absolutely NO idea what you just said).

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 26

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 7:42:38 PM

HAK1M

Posts: 172
Joined: 11/2/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

All-inclusive does not work. In my opinion, we should not be following the "all-inclusive" mantra.

Oh, you're (supposedly) kinky? That's awesome. What else are you?

In regular, vanilla society, we don't do the "all-inclusive" thing. We recognize that, as a society, there are some folks who need to be removed from the rest of us. Generally, it's called "prison". These are people that we recognize that they kill, rape, abuse, stalk, threaten, and do other things to various members of society.

So, if we understand that "all-inclusive" doesn't work in vanilla life, why are we so quick to do it in kink world? We KNOW we have kinky people in our midst who are rather despicable creatures. Is that money at the door for the local kink group really worth it? Perhaps a new screen name? Hey, if Whiskey Business or Mr Handcuffs show up again before their murder trials, are folks going to be ok with that, too?

It's time for decent people to say, "no, you can't be here".

(I have absolutely NO idea what you just said).

LMAO. It means go back guys we screwed up.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 27

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 8:12:36 PM

littleclip

Posts: 869
Joined: 5/31/2012
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there are in any given section of society members that are not good no matter what group your in religion business or kink some groups start off good like what Nathan Bedford forrest started but turn bad just like the kkk Nathan quit when it became a hate group he started a protection group. there are members who are just toxic to others and need to be excluded and others that wont see that what there doing is damaging look at any book club or local meeting of any kind you will see them

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Post #: 28

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/5/2015 8:17:26 PM

dreamlady

Posts: 737
Joined: 9/13/2007
From: Western MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

If you are alluding to there is no one on earth that is 100% dominant or submissive – save real loons; Hitler, . . . – I agree – and what of a common liar what should we do with them lock them for everyone’s own good or hurl them into the nearest volcano.

Going off topic here, I don't know about all the others, or homicidal tyrants like Stalin, but Hitler was not 100% Dominant. There are some people who might equate dominance with being domineering, overbearing and/or mentally disturbed in an unhinged sort of way.

It is only for that reason that I mention that while Hitler did not generally have a submissive personality, and was not known to be submissive or deferential to other males, even Hitler was a good son to his mother.
Not a real surprise there, because even a sociopath or a psychopath can show his own mother respect, as in the case of professional hitmen and the like.

What IS notable, however, is that he was submissive to the woman who was the love of his life, Angela Raubel.
In fact, it irked many in his inner circle that he acted like a love-smitten puppy dog around her, and how it was perceived that she had him wrapped around her finger, so to speak.
This is significant because while it is believed that her murder was staged to look like a suicide by his enemies (he blamed the Jews), the unproven murder of the half-niece who shared his Munich apartment with him while she attended University may have been an inside job for political reasons.

DreamLady

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Post #: 29

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/6/2015 12:18:16 AM

Cell

Posts: 409
Status: offline

There are sleazy people out there who shouldn't be trusted alone with a dog let alone a person sure... However there's also no shortage of stupid, self-destroying women either (or men I suppose). I wouldn't just say that it takes two to tango... But I've certainly seen it enough times to know for every 'predator' there's no shortage of prey... naivety, dimwittedness, being led around by their groin, living in a fantasy... It makes it hard to feel compassion for those who get used/abused in some cases.

(in reply to dreamlady)

Post #: 30

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/6/2015 4:43:08 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady

What IS notable, however, is that he was submissive to the woman who was the love of his life, Angela Raubel.

I have a hard time to believe that keeping her almost as a prisoner, forbidding her relationships with other people and forcing her to break up with her boyfriend, could be seen as submissive behaviour, sounds more like an unhinged obsession with her

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Post #: 31

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/6/2015 4:54:46 AM

Awareness

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For those holding raffle tickets, please check your numbers. We have a winner. Post #22 has invoked Godwin's Law. Link here: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law

That doesn't count. Godwin's Law only holds when you compare your debate opponent(s) to Hitler or Nazis. Attempting to terminate the thread by deliberately mentioning Nazis in the hope of triggering Godwin's Law is excepted. (Plus, by consensus, you've lost the debate at that point, anyway).

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Post #: 32

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/6/2015 9:26:44 PM

dreamlady

Posts: 737
Joined: 9/13/2007
From: Western MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I have a hard time to believe that keeping her almost as a prisoner, forbidding her relationships with other people and forcing her to break up with her boyfriend, could be seen as submissive behaviour, sounds more like an unhinged obsession with her

Unhinged obsession would be an understatement.
I don't know if I can possibly tie this back to the topic at hand, without going further off topic.

There are those who will try to justify their behavior with all sorts of nonsense, and don't see what others see.
The unhealthy co-dependent D/s (whether consensually entered into). . .
An obsessive compulsion that turns into stalking. . . which can then lead to criminal conduct;
Manipulative actions designed to try to control the other person against their will, whether approached in a Dominant or submission fashion.

I daresay you have (also) come upon men who are like wolves in sheep's clothing, and often harder to spot than the wolves who pounce upon the scene without attempting to disguise their ill intent.

A man like Hitler will use whatever tool necessary to justify his actions in any number of ways.
Not the whole picture, but since his father married his half-niece (she continued to call him "Uncle" even after they were married), he saw nothing wrong with wanting to marry his own half-niece and felt entitled to woo and court his little Geli.

I suppose that type of stalker (the love-smitten one who can easily turn vengeful) views his own actions as being romantic or a sign of his *undying loyalty*, and it can start out innocuous enough, but then snowball into a situation that gets out of control.

Getting back on topic,

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
So, if we understand that "all-inclusive" doesn't work in vanilla life, why are we so quick to do it in kink world? We KNOW we have kinky people in our midst who are rather despicable creatures.

What I don't understand is why would anyone tolerate bad behavior in the name of kink or D/s or anything else? Especially when it comes to non-victimless crimes.
LadyPact, I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know, but it's that double-edged sword of tolerance/intolerance that causes many to err on the side of looking away and not following their gut instincts when they detect there's something wrong going on that could be damaging to themselves and to others.

DreamLady

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Love is born with the pleasure of looking at each other, it is fed with the necessity of seeing each other, it is concluded with the impossibility of separation. ~José Marti

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 33

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 6:21:04 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
What I don't understand is why would anyone tolerate bad behavior in the name of kink or D/s or anything else? Especially when it comes to non-victimless crimes.
LadyPact, I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know, but it's that double-edged sword of tolerance/intolerance that causes many to err on the side of looking away and not following their gut instincts when they detect there's something wrong going on that could be damaging to themselves and to others.

DreamLady

I honestly don't have the answer for the why. My personal opinions and theories on it don't translate well to fact because, unfortunately, mind reading is not one of my capabilities.

I did a quick spin through the Alternative Lifestyles in the News section last evening. It's nowhere near the information on criminal cases that can be found on Fet but I attribute that to the much lower rate of forum participation here compared to there. It makes me wonder if folks know just how many of the people who are getting those headlines were members of their local kink communities and of those, just how many had prior complaints about them who were still welcome before whatever big splash made them a news story. Without boring folks to death some of those include:

* The "Master Bob" case from Detroit. (He's the one who arranged to have his wife killed because he wanted to engage in BDSM but didn't want to divorce the wife/take the financial loss.)

* The "WhiskeyBusiness" case in Chicago. Complaints had been filed against him, asking for his removal from the kink community by multiple people. (He ended up going to his former submissive's home, raping her, and then tried to set her house on fire.)

* The couple in Murfreesboro, TN. (They were the ones who killed their female submissive in their own home.)

A couple of them that didn't make national news but were also instances of people who were not banned by their community even after multiple complaints were received. (You may know of one of the stories, DreamLady because of being not far from you.)

* The former GLS Studios. Three separate women had gone to the owner/operator of GLS Studios because they had been sexually assaulted by, (get this) the club's head DM. All three incidents happened on the premises. GLS Studios refused to remove the person as the head DM, right up until criminal charges were filed and a conviction obtained. The club closed shortly after that.

* The Lady H***** incidents in CA. Multiple people had been bringing complaints against her and it was asked of various venues to ban her. She was not until she publicly admitted to sexual assault. (She did not admit to the criminal case that was still pending against her that involved sexual assault and hitting a trans* person in the face so hard that dental work was required.) From that point, she was banned from the club in CA but still presented at Sin in the City on, of all things, negotiation and consent.

These are just the tip of the iceberg. I didn't even get into issues such as embezzlement, property damage, and some other highlights that have been perpetrated by people we can't seem to remove. We suck at removing the criminal element in our kink communities. If we don't get better at it, some of this is only going to get worse.

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The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Post #: 34

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 7:23:52 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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quote:

* The former GLS Studios. Three separate women had gone to the owner/operator of GLS Studios because they had been sexually assaulted by, (get this) the club's head DM. All three incidents happened on the premises. GLS Studios refused to remove the person as the head DM, right up until criminal charges were filed and a conviction obtained. The club closed shortly after that.

That was very ugly internally.

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Post #: 35

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 9:45:14 AM

Bhruic

Posts: 985
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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

All-inclusive does not work. In my opinion, we should not be following the "all-inclusive" mantra.

Forgive my ignorance, but what does "all inclusive" mean in this context? I tried to divine it from subsequent posts, but I am still not sure what is specifically being discussed.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 11/7/2015 9:49:40 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 9:49:21 AM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

All-inclusive does not work. In my opinion, we should not be following the "all-inclusive" mantra.

Forgive my ignorance, but what does "all inclusive" mean in this context? I tried to divine it from subsequent posts, but I am still not sure what is being discussed.

All inclusive in this context means the idea that we, as a community, should accept anybody to be part of the community based on nothing more than their claim that they are kinky.

So anybody, anything, and any kind of deviant behavior should be labeled "kinky" or "BDSM" merely on their claim that it ought to be considered such, with no thought given about their actual behavior, even if it's immoral or predatory.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 11/7/2015 10:08:17 AM >

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I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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Post #: 37

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 9:58:48 AM

Bhruic

Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

All-inclusive does not work. In my opinion, we should not be following the "all-inclusive" mantra.

Forgive my ignorance, but what does "all inclusive" mean in this context? I tried to divine it from subsequent posts, but I am still not sure what is being discussed.

All inclusive in this context means the idea that we, as a community, should accept anybody to be part of the community based on nothing more than their claim that they are kinky.

So anybody, anything, and any kind of deviant behavior should be labeled "kinky" or "BDSM" merely on their claim that it ought to be considered such, with no thought given about actual their action behavior, even if it's immoral or predatory.

Oh. I guess I can see right away what the main controversial issue would be... who is to be the judge of such people.

Out of curiosity, I investigated the national sex offender registry here in Canada... and it is specifically not available to the public, and there are strict laws concerning what third parties - beyond the police - do with information they might receive from the registry to protect individual rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

It's an age old issue I guess. How to manage the rights of the individual against the rights of society... and how to tell the difference between the two.

I am kind of moved to wonder... do we, as a "community" accept anyone? I would argue that the Kink community is more a collection of individuals than other communities (like a religion or a church for example). And it operates very individualistically. Even when talking about events, or clubs etc. there is never - I would guess - a communal quality to some kind of decision making process about who to accept and who not to. It is usually small groups of individuals making that determination.

I think it very likely that no kind of communal information network about these kinds of issues is ever going to be justly or objectively administered... and we are consigned to using our own judgement and circumspection in dealing with others we encounter in this lifestyle. I think history has - in other cases of communal judgement - taught us that lesson very well.

Just an opinion.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 11/7/2015 10:11:39 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 10:11:15 AM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Oh. I guess I can see right away what the main controversial issue would be... who is to be the judge of such people.

The same way any group has self-policed throughout the entirety of human history: by individual members of said group deciding that they are not willing to engage with that person, until a critical mass has been reached.

In order for that to happen, or be acceptable though, the idea that it's okay to not be all inclusive needs to first gain acceptance.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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Post #: 39

RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 10:15:27 AM

Bhruic

Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Oh. I guess I can see right away what the main controversial issue would be... who is to be the judge of such people.

The same way any group has self-policed throughout the entirety of human history: by individual members of said group deciding that they are not willing to engage with that person, until a critical mass has been reached.

Well yes... It's just that the reality of such instances of group self policing throughout the entirety of human history has often been quite horrific and unjust. It is easy to look at one or two cases and consider that one has a clear view of the issue... but when one tries to convert that in to a general system of judgement of others... well, that has not historically turned out well.

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Post #: 40

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