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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 10:19:50 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

but when one tries to convert that in to a general system of judgement of others... well, that has not historically turned out well.



Agreed.
I don't condone general community standards in an instance such as this, as it's impossible to prevent abuse in those cases, because most people are fundamentally not capable of detecting corruption in their -inevitable arising- leaders.
Instead it should be a system akin to a common law jury, with every member making their own individual choices.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 11:17:22 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

but when one tries to convert that in to a general system of judgement of others... well, that has not historically turned out well.



Agreed.
I don't condone general community standards in an instance such as this, as it's impossible to prevent abuse in those cases, because most people are fundamentally not capable of detecting corruption in their -inevitable arising- leaders.
Instead it should be a system akin to a common law jury, with every member making their own individual choices.


I agree... but that is what we innately do anyway, right? We judge people we encounter as either being palatable to us, or not... and act accordingly. Gossip and hearsay inevitably play a role... but it's up to the individual how much stock they want to put in that, according to their character.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 11:39:41 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I agree... but that is what we innately do anyway, right? We judge people we encounter as either being palatable to us, or not... and act accordingly. Gossip and hearsay inevitably play a role... but it's up to the individual how much stock they want to put in that, according to their character.


Healthy people do that naturally, yes.
However, there is a big push within the kink community to 'shame' that type of judgment of any kind, because after all, "it's us against the world and we should stick together" or "we're supposed to be all inclusive, otherwise you break up the integrity of the community".

There's a good example of this going on currently in this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4854331/tm.htm

With the OP becoming all undignified about how kinksters shouldn't judge, and trying to shame the other people on the thread into backing down, after she got negative comments for breaking the TOS.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/7/2015 1:40:21 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Genuine predators are typically charming, well liked and good at winning a majority of a group over. Speaking up against such a person becomes a "he said, she said" fiasco and tends to do a lot of damage: much of it to the individual(s) trying to bring light to the despicable activities of the person others follow so blindly.


Yup. I don't know much about BDSM venues; I know still less about psychopaths. Yet whenever I've looked up the latter, I've come across this sort of description:

"The socialized psychopath can be very attractive for the very qualities that make them psychopathic. This is not as contradictory as it sounds. A person whom we sense is not encumbered with the same inhibitions, doubts, uncertainties and sensitivities that plague the rest of mankind can seem very attractive. They can have such an aura of confidence and freedom about them. They may be enormously fun sensation-seeking risk takers. There are 'no strings on them' - or so it would appear. They may even seem like heroes to us. And they will keep us onside while we are useful to them."

http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/articles/strings-psychopathy.html


Gawd, do I know femsubs who slaver at meeting such a 'maledom'. A man who is apparently utterly unhampered by the sorts of anxieties that afflict 'lesser, less-domly men'. (And no doubt there are femdoms who are similarly wired ... though I've less experience of that sort.)

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/8/2015 5:08:56 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
Oh. I guess I can see right away what the main controversial issue would be... who is to be the judge of such people.

Out of curiosity, I investigated the national sex offender registry here in Canada... and it is specifically not available to the public, and there are strict laws concerning what third parties - beyond the police - do with information they might receive from the registry to protect individual rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

As a complete side note, I'd really like to ask a question about this. How does this work for potential employers? Are criminal records treated in the same way? In this country, you can't even hire a delivery driver without a copy of their MVR. (Granted, it's usually the applicant who obtains it.) What about areas like teachers, day care workers, and home health aides? (Sorry. It's the former HR in me.)

quote:

It's an age old issue I guess. How to manage the rights of the individual against the rights of society... and how to tell the difference between the two.

This is a bit farther than I intended to go but I tend to lean on the side that attending kink gatherings isn't a "right". It's a privilege. Abuse the privilege and people don't want you back works in all other social settings, so it's not a stretch that it should work for us, too.

quote:

I am kind of moved to wonder... do we, as a "community" accept anyone? I would argue that the Kink community is more a collection of individuals than other communities (like a religion or a church for example). And it operates very individualistically. Even when talking about events, or clubs etc. there is never - I would guess - a communal quality to some kind of decision making process about who to accept and who not to. It is usually small groups of individuals making that determination.

I think it very likely that no kind of communal information network about these kinds of issues is ever going to be justly or objectively administered... and we are consigned to using our own judgement and circumspection in dealing with others we encounter in this lifestyle. I think history has - in other cases of communal judgement - taught us that lesson very well.

Just an opinion.

Oh, I'm not suggesting our communities become a hive mind or that various communities shouldn't adopt what works for them, even though another community wouldn't be able to get it to work that way. However, certain things don't work anywhere.

I keep hearing this in the Mr Mackey voice from South Park. http://wiki.southpark.cc.com/wiki/Mr._Mackey

"Ummm... Death is bad, m'kay. Don't kill your play partners."

Since we're talking about BDSM, rather than discussing the right to die with dignity issue, let's say that death is probably a hard limit for most people. Even for those people where it's not, I really don't want to share scene space with them. (I guess I wouldn't be sharing it long with the bottom but hey, I'm picky like that.) I'm also not big on sharing it with convicted/admitted (criminal) rapists, people who dabble in kiddie porn, and a few other choice things.

Yep. Some folks on this site at judgmental as heck.



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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/8/2015 9:21:49 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
Oh. I guess I can see right away what the main controversial issue would be... who is to be the judge of such people.

Out of curiosity, I investigated the national sex offender registry here in Canada... and it is specifically not available to the public, and there are strict laws concerning what third parties - beyond the police - do with information they might receive from the registry to protect individual rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

As a complete side note, I'd really like to ask a question about this. How does this work for potential employers? Are criminal records treated in the same way? In this country, you can't even hire a delivery driver without a copy of their MVR. (Granted, it's usually the applicant who obtains it.) What about areas like teachers, day care workers, and home health aides? (Sorry. It's the former HR in me.)


As far as I could determine, only police and the RCMP have access to the registry and it is used for tracking, and criminal investigations only.




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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/8/2015 9:32:31 AM   
Bunnicula


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Status: offline 		In the UK professions like teachers, police, doctors, firefighters and everyone who works with children and vulnerable adults has to undergo a criminal records check. Mine has to be renewed every 3 years and it records any previous convictions and arrests.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/8/2015 7:30:54 PM   
HAK1M


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bunnicula

In the UK professions like teachers, police, doctors, firefighters and everyone who works with children and vulnerable adults has to undergo a criminal records check. Mine has to be renewed every 3 years and it records any previous convictions and arrests.

rude people get knocked on their keesters almost any place

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 4:46:57 AM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		I guess that means you spend a lot of time wiping the dust of off your backside.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 5:20:52 AM   
HAK1M


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I guess that means you spend a lot of time wiping the dust of off your backside.


It means: ( you absolutely had no idea what I said)
Do we say shake the dust off or wipe. Wipe is usually used on wet smooth surfaces, we can't wipe the dust. Just saying.

< Message edited by HAK1M -- 11/9/2015 5:29:16 AM >

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 5:35:31 AM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		Usually, when people get knocked on their butt into the dirt, they have to brush it off. I'm guessing you spend a lot of time getting knocked down on your tail in life.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 8:55:14 AM   
LordxRapture


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Status: offline 		It would seem that most people who are participating in this discussion agree with the thread's title.

Here's the real question then : How do we resolve it?

There's been a lot of talk about background checks and criminal records, but that's not practical until America's sex laws and "morality" changes.

A certification board or organization of some sort *could* work, but who would it be comprised of, and how many of us surly and opinionated Top/Dom/Master folk would agree that it held merit, let alone to be tested/certified.

I don't claim to have an answer, but given that at least some of us are intelligent, we should e able to come up with something of a solution.

What does it look like?


As an aside, I insist any submissive wishing to meet with me check my references and set up a safe calls. Its not a full solution but its the best I've found.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 9:32:25 AM   
HAK1M


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordxRapture

It would seem that most people who are participating in this discussion agree with the thread's title.

Here's the real question then : How do we resolve it?

There's been a lot of talk about background checks and criminal records, but that's not practical until America's sex laws and "morality" changes.

A certification board or organization of some sort *could* work, but who would it be comprised of, and how many of us surly and opinionated Top/Dom/Master folk would agree that it held merit, let alone to be tested/certified.

I don't claim to have an answer, but given that at least some of us are intelligent, we should e able to come up with something of a solution.

What does it look like?


As an aside, I insist any submissive wishing to meet with me check my references and set up a safe calls. Its not a full solution but its the best I've found.


What are you talking about? And resolve what?
And what about that crap background check and criminal records. Do you believe that insurance companies game they use to sift through people and favor the inexpensive candidates.
So what if somebody went to jail or prison? Does that make him inferior to you or socially unfit.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 9:36:24 AM   
Spiritedsub2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HAK1M


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordxRapture

It would seem that most people who are participating in this discussion agree with the thread's title.

Here's the real question then : How do we resolve it?

There's been a lot of talk about background checks and criminal records, but that's not practical until America's sex laws and "morality" changes.

A certification board or organization of some sort *could* work, but who would it be comprised of, and how many of us surly and opinionated Top/Dom/Master folk would agree that it held merit, let alone to be tested/certified.

I don't claim to have an answer, but given that at least some of us are intelligent, we should e able to come up with something of a solution.

What does it look like?


As an aside, I insist any submissive wishing to meet with me check my references and set up a safe calls. Its not a full solution but its the best I've found.


What are you talking about? And resolve what?
And what about that crap background check and criminal records. Do you believe that insurance companies game they use to sift through people and favor the inexpensive candidates.
So what if somebody went to jail or prison? Does that make him inferior to you or socially unfit.


Sounds like a sore spot for you. Can't imagine why.


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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 9:39:52 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordxRapture

It would seem that most people who are participating in this discussion agree with the thread's title.

Here's the real question then : How do we resolve it?
We could start with getting rid of the "Don't talk about it" atmosphere and by not attacking the victim, which is what I see anytime someone even hints at an accusation. The community is more worried about outing people than the safety of the participants.



quote:

As an aside, I insist any submissive wishing to meet with me check my references and set up a safe calls. Its not a full solution but its the best I've found.

References are useless. They're too easily faked.

Safe calls are an "after it's happened" measure. What's better is being proactive about your safety and having situational awareness.



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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 9:47:57 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

References are useless. They're too easily faked.


What about the tried and trusted - sounding out people who know one's potential partner to suss out his/her reputation? People who knew the one bad (I mean, very bad) femdom who started showing interest in me had a quiet word in my shell-like. I checked up on her some more - and, yep, submales who'd been with her (and whom I liked and respected) had had a nasty time and reported that she was a looney. All this, though, is just a variation on what people have done in the vanilla world and for time immemorial when sizing up a potential partner.

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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 9:56:33 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

References are useless. They're too easily faked.


What about the tried and trusted - sounding out people who know one's potential partner to suss out his/her reputation? People who knew the one bad (I mean, very bad) femdom who started showing interest in me had a quiet word in my shell-like. I checked up on her some more - and, yep, submales who'd been with her (and whom I liked and respected) had had a nasty time and reported that she was a looney. All this, though, is just a variation on what people have done in the vanilla world and for time immemorial when sizing up a potential partner.


I think if you're both part of the community - asking people that you know and trust works. But, if one or the other isn't part of community, it won't work.

There was a local guy here that refused to meet women that participated in the community...and more specifically, he would ask if they knew me or Himself. I called him out for being rude (Me Dom, you sub routine) and for touching someone that didn't belong to him. He told me that he didn't take instructions from submissives and if I spoke to him again he'd slap me. If he met someone in the community, chances were that they'd know that he behaves like a flaming asshat at public events.



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RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 10:51:16 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordxRapture
It would seem that most people who are participating in this discussion agree with the thread's title.

First, thank you for bringing the discussion back to the topic.

quote:

Here's the real question then : How do we resolve it?

That is the big question. Unfortunately, what tends to happen when it starts to be discussed is a number of people want to play the 'we can't solve all of it, so let's not take any measures to curtail any of it' approach. In other words, we can't catch everybody who sexually assaults someone at a play space, so let's not bother to toss the ones that we know have done it.

quote:

There's been a lot of talk about background checks and criminal records, but that's not practical until America's sex laws and "morality" changes.

This is another problem that comes up when we start talking about things like should we use the sexual offense registry. The way some folks talk, there's nobody on that list except for people who urinated in public or got swept up in having encounters that now would go under the Romeo and Juliet areas that are changing.

quote:

A certification board or organization of some sort *could* work, but who would it be comprised of, and how many of us surly and opinionated Top/Dom/Master folk would agree that it held merit, let alone to be tested/certified.

Every major convention in the USA already has this. At minimum, a producer pulling the event off. GKE (the geeky kink event) was just last weekend and the producer of that event does a pretty good job.

quote:

I don't claim to have an answer, but given that at least some of us are intelligent, we should e able to come up with something of a solution.

What does it look like?

In my view, some of what it looks like to me isn't always popular because some of it requires actual work, courage, and conviction. Instead of meekly saying that we don't know for sure certain things are happening and there's this horrible wrongly convicted percentage, (not to mention that huge 8% false reporting thing that people like to throw around) we focus on the majority of convictions that we know do happen. Pending case in court? The perpetrator doesn't come back until the case has been settled.

quote:

As an aside, I insist any submissive wishing to meet with me check my references and set up a safe calls. Its not a full solution but its the best I've found.

These days, the same thing works with checking the reputation of kink events, groups, and dungeons. If they have a crap pattern of not handling issues, it's probably not where you want to spend your money.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 10:56:15 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HAK1M
What are you talking about? And resolve what?
And what about that crap background check and criminal records. Do you believe that insurance companies game they use to sift through people and favor the inexpensive candidates.
So what if somebody went to jail or prison? Does that make him inferior to you or socially unfit.

Oddly enough, that's kind of what prison is. Somebody's behavior showing that they aren't fit, at least temporarily, to be with the rest of society. Commit crime X, we remove you from society. Kind of what the thread is about.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to HAK1M)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work - 11/9/2015 11:11:25 AM   
Bunnicula


Posts: 420
Joined: 4/7/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HAK1M



rude people get knocked on their keesters almost any place


...and one-legged ducks swim in circles.

Which makes more sense than the bolded original comment.



edited for clarity

< Message edited by Bunnicula -- 11/9/2015 11:16:52 AM >

_____________________________

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"You're not a very nice bunny" - some_random_internet_asshole's_sock


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Previously known as 'myotherself' or simply 'da bunny'

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Profile   Post #: 60
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