Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 6:17:06 AM)

All-inclusive does not work. In my opinion, we should not be following the "all-inclusive" mantra.

Oh, you're (supposedly) kinky? That's awesome. What else are you?

In regular, vanilla society, we don't do the "all-inclusive" thing. We recognize that, as a society, there are some folks who need to be removed from the rest of us. Generally, it's called "prison". These are people that we recognize that they kill, rape, abuse, stalk, threaten, and do other things to various members of society.

So, if we understand that "all-inclusive" doesn't work in vanilla life, why are we so quick to do it in kink world? We KNOW we have kinky people in our midst who are rather despicable creatures. Is that money at the door for the local kink group really worth it? Perhaps a new screen name? Hey, if Whiskey Business or Mr Handcuffs show up again before their murder trials, are folks going to be ok with that, too?

It's time for decent people to say, "no, you can't be here".



Awareness -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 6:27:00 AM)

It's good to see some light is beginning to dawn.

I've written previously on why the kink world is so problematic. The participants see themselves as defying social mores and legal codes - then discover they already have their own social mores and need their own legal codes. Because otherwise, bad shit happens.

Basically, they've exited puberty and are on the road to adulthood - but they're not there yet.



LadyPact -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 6:47:30 AM)

In my opinion, law supersedes BDSM.

Yes, a lot of people b^tch about that. How we can't conduct our activities because you 'can't agree to assault" in a sexually contextual matter. That kind of argument isn't doing so well these days.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 7:18:56 AM)

At most events I went to there were monitors who asked people who weren't playing by the rules to leave.

As for legalities, I think we all have broken laws to play, otherwise there wouldn't have been any impact play ever, but the law isn't concerned with what 2 or more consenting adults do as long as nobody gets seriously injured, knowing your play partner and your skills goes a long way. I'd really hesitate playing with somebody I don't know well enough.



OsideGirl -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 8:41:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


It's time for decent people to say, "no, you can't be here".



I've always thought this. I've frequently been amazed at how far some communities will go to not acknowledge incidents.

In 1999, the SoCal community had a chat room on AOL that was very active and the majority of us knew each other in real life from attending the socials. (The Sportsman's Lodge social would get 200 people during the summer months)

It turned out, we had a predator in the room that we didn't know about. It was the so-called Dom of the woman that approached me because he wanted a second sub. But, he was also in our chat room as a single man. He was targeting specific women from the room (he had a thing for brunettes with bangs)

He met women from the room and some he met in public places. He told one woman that he had a puppy in the car, did she want to see it? He shoved her in the car and raped her. He met and raped 6 other women too.

When his submissive failed at getting me to meet him, he beat her with closed fists, raped her and ripped her open. She ended up in the hospital for 3 weeks, she required 52 stitches to repair her genitals, she had broken bones and a brain injury.

She contacted me when she got out to warn me to be aware that he was determined to meet me. She refused to give a report to police. She refused when in the hospital, she refused when I urged her to file a report, she refused when her friends told her that she should. She was convinced that she would be treated badly because she was into D/s BDSM. (She was not aware that the man in our chat room was the same man)

He raped at least 8 women in 6 months. Only one made a report. Only one hinted at being raped to the community, but she refused to name him. It wasn't until he was arrested that the other 6 came forward and we finally convinced K to file the report.

It turned out he was on parole and these rape charges were his 3rd strike.


It amazed me that we had someone flat out violating the community and no one said anything. We were the last to know.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 9:40:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

It's good to see some light is beginning to dawn.

I've written previously on why the kink world is so problematic. The participants see themselves as defying social mores and legal codes - then discover they already have their own social mores and need their own legal codes. Because otherwise, bad shit happens.

Basically, they've exited puberty and are on the road to adulthood - but they're not there yet.


Agreed, though I find it incredibly problematic that pendulum currently seems to be swinging in the direction of completely muddling up the meaning of consent.

In the sense that non-consent currently seems to equate "I don't like what you're doing even if it doesn't involve or impact me".
Or, "6 months later, after talking to some 'friends' I decided that I didn't consent to you doing that in the moment after all, even though I gave no indication of this at the time".



LadyPact -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 10:43:18 AM)

Retroactive withdraw of consent doesn't usually work with me. I will buy:

"I was so stunned I had to process the events first."

"I was afraid to come forward."

<Insert myriad of plausible reasons here.>


NOT

* Months later

* After the person has dismissed you from their life

* Once the gaggle has <cough> advised you <cough>.


The problem is, some of these things can overlap.

For Ish,

People tend to think I'm cold when I say I don't give a f^ck what people do in their own house. You're not harming other people? Have a grand time. I don't care if they engage in CNC, while having forced play, in the middle of sucking blood, that then gets spit out and used as lube for a fifteen inch dildo, that is then used for anal play on the person who has to balance an apple on their head.

Having fun? I'm glad. Take pics. I'd love to see it.

However, I am really big on the things that impact me. That includes the areas of non consent that happen in our communities. If person A assaults person B and person A wants to keep coming to the kink event? Yeah, that bugs me a bit.



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 10:59:39 AM)

I agree with you Lady Pact. There are some despicable predators out there.

Unfortunately, in my experience, the predator is often the fawned over "pillar of the community."

The 'creepy guy" who lacks basic social skills or just puts people off, but is otherwise innocent, is usually painted as a predator and socially spurned.

Genuine predators are typically charming, well liked and good at winning a majority of a group over. Speaking up against such a person becomes a "he said, she said" fiasco and tends to do a lot of damage: much of it to the individual(s) trying to bring light to the despicable activities of the person others follow so blindly.

The other sort of predator, that slips into groups is the victim playing submissive who manages to rally around her (it tends to be a her) people quick to her defense and what was a simple spanking turns into allegations of non-consensual 'rape" and her play partner is branded a predator. It isn't until this particular 'victim' has a few other situations of drama before people start to recognize her as 'maybe' not the victim she appeared. However, there's almost always a lot of doubt surrounding her and she maintains a group of stout supporters and the reputations of the man/men she's laid accusations toward never recovers.

In terms of a group that has been around a long time, but relies on discretion of its members to protect the venues and members anonymity: outing and exiling a member can mean retaliation in the form of harassment such as false calls in to the police etcs.

It isn't always an easy straight forward issue.

There's more but my battery is dying.

Lady Pact, how would you identify and keep the despicable elements out? As a former venue owner and board member of a play party, I've found this issue pervasive and frustrating and as a former survivor of a predator met at a munch, personally of interest.

WD



LadyConstanze -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 11:00:36 AM)

Maybe I only went to very very sheltered events, but I doubt it, but any sign of assault or missing consent would have person A out of the door in a heartbeat and with a foot print on the behind. Simply to avoid that everybody would feel a bit stressed out and avoid the place or event and because such behaviour is a recipe for disaster and nobody likes to have the police at a kink event.

As for the remove consent retrospectively, what a load of BS, just as No means No, giving consent is just that, if you don't know what you are doing you possibly shouldn't ask anybody to play with you, simple, BDSM is a game for adults. I'd love to play more freely and more often but with the risk that a disgruntled sub who will all of a sudden decide it was "abuse" I think I stick to playing with people I know well.



OsideGirl -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 11:26:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Genuine predators are typically charming, well liked and good at winning a majority of a group over.
There was a guy here, in the local group, that behaved towards ALL women like an asshole. When I commented on his behavior, I was told that he was a "traditional, old school type Dominant that believes in gender superiority". He was rude to every female....and almost the entire group fawned over him. There were multiple accusations of ignored safe words, ignored limits and unsafe sex....and they still fawned over him. I couldn't believe that the "I'm a Dom, so I can be an asshole" fleeced an entire club.

quote:

The other sort of predator, that slips into groups is the victim playing submissive who manages to rally around her (it tends to be a her) people quick to her defense and what was a simple spanking turns into allegations of non-consensual 'rape" and her play partner is branded a predator.


Ugh, the previous submissive of M was like this. She even did it to M, while they were dating. She told him that she wanted to be pushed, never used her safeword and when M got mad at her for not using her safeword....she ran back to her ex claiming he ignored the safeword.

The community became tired of her and people just stopped talking to her. She eventually moved into a different community and I have no idea what happened after that.



LadyPact -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 11:52:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Lady Pact, how would you identify and keep the despicable elements out? As a former venue owner and board member of a play party, I've found this issue pervasive and frustrating and as a former survivor of a predator met at a munch, personally of interest.

WD

That's a pretty big question. I happen to think that most incidents at venues, munches, and events have to be looked at in a case by case basis.

If everybody is frolicking along and having a good time, that's great. You don't have to do anything. I've been to plenty of fun things over the years that nothing bad has ever happened.

And, I've been to stuff that went to hell in a hand-basket fast.

I don't fuss much about 'outsider' complaints. These are the things observed by those not in first party participation that they didn't like what they saw. EX. Face slapping scene. People involved in the scene are having a great time but someone watching it doesn't like it.

First person complaints are completely different. If *you* come to *me* and say bad thing X happened, I think that warrants my attention.

Let's pause. "Bad thing X happened." How do we do that in society?

We don't ask victims if they know of two or three other people that the same thing happened to them.

We *do* keep the perpetrator away from the victim.

We conduct an investigation to the best of our ability.


Last year at DO-Winter Fire, a man saw a strap on scene in progress and approached the participants. He slipped his arm around the waist of the top and whispered "how do you think he likes you fucking him?" in her ear. In a relatively short amount of time, representatives of the event escorted him from the play space back to his hotel room. In the morning, he was walked out of the front door to the hotel.

That's how it should happen.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 2:13:49 PM)

Actually that's what happens on this side of the pond, I would have thought it happens much more on your side of the pond, given the fact that your laws are a bit stricter and people tend to sue a lot more....

Involvement in any scene without being invited to is a reason to be dismissed, usually it's all clarified on the invitations.

The way I've seen trouble handled was that if one person claimed something happened that shouldn't have happened and it's a first time offence, they get separated and are told to stay away from each other, usually a DM steps in and other DMs shadow both. There are tops who don't know boundaries, but there are also tons of subs that love to be the victim and change their mind in the middle of scenes - which is their right as long as they use the safe word, but they then shouldn't be pissed off if the top says "fine, we don't play anymore", but they then like to play the victim



J0K3ER -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 2:40:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

It's good to see some light is beginning to dawn.

I've written previously on why the kink world is so problematic. The participants see themselves as defying social mores and legal codes - then discover they already have their own social mores and need their own legal codes. Because otherwise, bad shit happens.

Basically, they've exited puberty and are on the road to adulthood - but they're not there yet.


Agreed, though I find it incredibly problematic that pendulum currently seems to be swinging in the direction of completely muddling up the meaning of consent.

In the sense that non-consent currently seems to equate "I don't like what you're doing even if it doesn't involve or impact me".
Or, "6 months later, after talking to some 'friends' I decided that I didn't consent to you doing that in the moment after all, even though I gave no indication of this at the time".

excuse me here goddess of logic I cant bite my tongue. explain this to me . how can a pendulum swing in only one direction .......thats all.
check mate.... rematch.
[image]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Laughinglarry/pendulum.gif[/image]



Missokyst -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 6:18:14 PM)

Acck... pretty sure we were in the same chat rooms. DANG, it always amazed me that people saw that as "dominance"
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

There was a guy here, in the local group, that behaved towards ALL women like an asshole. When I commented on his behavior, I was told that he was a "traditional, old school type Dominant that believes in gender superiority". He was rude to every female....and almost the entire group fawned over him. There were multiple accusations of ignored safe words, ignored limits and unsafe sex....and they still fawned over him. I couldn't believe that the "I'm a Dom, so I can be an asshole" fleeced an entire club.





DesFIP -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (10/29/2015 6:45:01 PM)

I was looking at Jon Krakauer's new book "Missoula" today. It's a study of acquaintance rape there, especially at the university.

The statistic he quoted was that there is a 50% higher incidence of PTSD in survivors of acquaintance rape than in returning vets.

I will say that PTSD by itself could well be a good enough reason for not being able to say that something was wrong immediately or for months after. Or years, like the Cosby victims.

With that said, if something was advertised as all-inclusive, my interpretation would be pan sexual with edge play that many places don't permit. Like race play or storm trooper outfits. My interpretation would not run to allowing known predators in to hunt for more victims.



MistressRage -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/4/2015 9:05:58 PM)

@OP I love you so much for posting this!!! Over at another major fetish site, a group got PISSED that a journalist dare say that there needs to be some line drawn in the sand as to what's OK and what isn't in BDSM (the article was in response to a BDSM related murder in Europe). I have never subscribed to the "Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK" mentality exactly for the reasons you stated LadyPact.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/4/2015 10:28:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: J0K3ER

excuse me here goddess of logic I cant bite my tongue. explain this to me . how can a pendulum swing in only one direction .......thats all.
check mate.... rematch.
[image]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Laughinglarry/pendulum.gif[/image]


It's an English saying sweetie. Don't think too much about sayings... it will make your head hurt.

But for your education: in the case of this saying it applies to slow social changes that appear over great lengths of time, and the metaphorical pendulum swings at the rate of history occurring (IE very slowly). It is meant to imply that in this slow swinging pendulum that follows history, we've reached one extreem (in my use case the historical lack of the need for sexual consent from women) and we're now on the way back to the other extreme (in this use case, the trend to muddle up the need for consent to an absurdity).



Dvr22999874 -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/4/2015 11:07:29 PM)

I believe the French came up with a pendulum that only swung one way. It actually circled the clock face in a clockwise direction (I believe) but that was way back in about the 18th century. I would guess it worked on some kind of flywheel mechanism but they called it a pendulum, so pendulum it was as far as I'm concerned



Greta75 -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/4/2015 11:15:37 PM)

I am trying to understand what this is about, do you people mean that, in bdsm events or gatherings. People accept real non-consensual crimes as part of BDSM? And are supportive towards it?



Awareness -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/5/2015 3:51:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Agreed, though I find it incredibly problematic that pendulum currently seems to be swinging in the direction of completely muddling up the meaning of consent.
That's an outgrowth of the idiotic consent culture which feminists are erecting as a response to the mythical "rape culture".

quote:


In the sense that non-consent currently seems to equate "I don't like what you're doing even if it doesn't involve or impact me".
Or, "6 months later, after talking to some 'friends' I decided that I didn't consent to you doing that in the moment after all, even though I gave no indication of this at the time".
Yes, the feminist consent framework is designed to provide women with the retroactive ability to accuse a man of rape despite - at the time - consenting to it. It's no coincidence that those same feminists want to lower the burden of proof in rape cases to "a woman's word should be good enough".




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