Drafting Women (Full Version)

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KenDckey -> Drafting Women (12/7/2015 1:40:03 PM)

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/12/women-likely-have-register-draft-army-secretary-says.html


Personally, I am infavor of registering women for the draft. I think Congress should act positively on this.




thompsonx -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 3:22:24 PM)


ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/12/women-likely-have-register-draft-army-secretary-says.html


Personally, I am infavor of registering women for the draft. I think Congress should act positively on this.


Why do you think there should even be a draft?




DaddySatyr -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 3:27:08 PM)


Equality is equality. Get 'em registered and put 'em in boots as often as they put males in boots.

Yes, I know there hasn't been a draft in forty years but there will be one, very soon



Michael




thompsonx -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 4:52:09 PM)

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Equality is equality. Get 'em registered and put 'em in boots as often as they put males in boots.

Yes, I know there hasn't been a draft in forty years but there will be one, very soon


My question stands unanswered...why should we have a draft. I could care less if soldiers sit down or stand to piss.




KenDckey -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 5:30:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/12/women-likely-have-register-draft-army-secretary-says.html


Personally, I am infavor of registering women for the draft. I think Congress should act positively on this.


Why do you think there should even be a draft?

There are two parts to this. First is registration. Registration is a contingency plan in the event that a Draft should become needed in response to whatever need the government thinks they need to implement it for.

The second part is implementation of conscription. Do I forsee the possibility of implementation of conscription? Who knows. Surely not me. If we declared war with some major power such as Russia or China, then I think the probability exists. Should we implement it with the war on terrorism? I don't know. That is a political decision that I hope is never made.

Needless to say, I only agreed with the registration part. As long as we have registration, we should register all not a select few based upon gender. Especially since they now allow women in all positions within the Army.




joether -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 6:57:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/12/women-likely-have-register-draft-army-secretary-says.html


Personally, I am infavor of registering women for the draft. I think Congress should act positively on this.


Why do you think there should even be a draft?

There are two parts to this. First is registration. Registration is a contingency plan in the event that a Draft should become needed in response to whatever need the government thinks they need to implement it for.

The second part is implementation of conscription. Do I forsee the possibility of implementation of conscription? Who knows. Surely not me. If we declared war with some major power such as Russia or China, then I think the probability exists. Should we implement it with the war on terrorism? I don't know. That is a political decision that I hope is never made.

Needless to say, I only agreed with the registration part. As long as we have registration, we should register all not a select few based upon gender. Especially since they now allow women in all positions within the Army.


Some country threats the USA, enough to force us to consider conscription of people....

....We nuke that country. Thereby not needing a reason to waste America's time with a draft.

You sort of forget we have the biggest military on the planet! We have eleven nuclear carrier....FLEETS. We have around forty nuclear 'boomer' submarines (each one able to destroy everything from Bango, ME to Key West, FL). The Air Force has stealth bombers for delivering those nukes in the right places. We have pile loads of special forces. An we have the Army and Marines whom will be more then happy to kick someone's teeth in just for thinking of hurting US Citizens.

We can call up the reserves and nation guards of each state. After that, all the law enforcement. Whomever is left has such easy access to firearms, it will not be tough to outfit the populace!

I do not see a need for a draft.




Real0ne -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 7:02:43 PM)

yep than along comes real to burst everyones bubble


The Founding Fathers Warned Against Standing Armies
Posted on November 19, 2011 by WashingtonsBlog

The Founding Fathers – and Freud – Warned Against Standing Armies

The Founding Fathers distrusted standing armies.

For example, James Madison said:

In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

Madison also noted that never-ending war tends to destroy both liberty and prosperity:

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied: and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals, engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.




thompsonx -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 7:08:15 PM)

The question was why do you think a draft should exist?




Greta75 -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 7:34:14 PM)

I still don't understand this draft thing. Is it voluntary or compulsory? Are men selected for draft against their will? Or do they volunteer?

If it's involuntary then by all means, definitely let women in too! But if it's forcing a selective number of males into it, then, it should be completely eradicated. Surely US has enough people to volunteer that they wouldn't need to force people into it.




TieMeInKnottss -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 7:55:49 PM)

Greta,
The "draft" is mandatory - a lot of countries refer to it as "conscription" or "mandatory service". We (US) have not had one since Vietnam. Prior to that, even during peace, the US, like many countries had a conscripted military all the time (in addition to volunteers).
This was a big problem in Vietnam as far as the public relations side of things. The last wars (Gulf War and the Iraq/Afghan. Have been all voluntary although that is another hot topic for another time)

The ""registration" is the "Selected Service Registeration" which was reintroduced in the 80s, I believe. Every male, at 18, must register (exemptions for the religious objection, mental/physical health...). When a draft is ordenes by Congress, the names are taken from This list.

Women have never been a part of either of these. Every female in the military, past and present, was a volunteer. In WW2, Korea, Vietnam...they were restricted to "non-battle" positions such as nursing. It was only recently that the restriction was removed and they could now request battlefront type positions (other debate on them being in the Rangers, SEALS, Special Forces..)

The new thing would be that women, like men, register on their 18th birthday and would be eligible to be "called up" if Congress implemented a draft.




Greta75 -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 8:14:28 PM)

Oh, so it's like compulsory military service for all men.

The problem with drafting women is, who stays home to take care of children when both men and women are called to duty?

Also, how can drafted people be ready for war when they are never trained?




TieMeInKnottss -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 8:41:41 PM)

Yeah, it is the compulsory service. Many countries do it (i.e. Israel). One- usually Congress will vote in a draft prior to actual full-scale war. Two, we have a huge volunteer military, 3 military academies, ROTC programs in most colleges, military reservists...all of who are already trained. Basically, the drafted would be "replacements" and "grunts" (believe it or not, despite MASH-there are a lot of medical volunteers because they pay for the schooling ). There is a system already established of basic training and those that rotate in as instructors from the active duty.

As far as kids, it probably would be LESS of an issue than it has been with the voluntary military. Many active duty and career military people marry other military people so, when the US started activating reservists and deployments...you had a lot of "2 soldier" families. There is an attempt to "cycle" married couples so that not both are away at the same time but, depending on specialties and need for some positions, it ends up that family members step in to fill the gap. If there is truly no one or you have a special hardship situation (mom has a permanent disability and there is no other family...exemptions are given )

When people are drafted there is a set term and, with a large enough population (plus computers to generate the lists LOL) it would not be an issue to cycle couples with families. Also, remember there is usually an age cutoff and not as many "young" people are established with spouses and kids as those in the over 30 age group




Greta75 -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 8:47:04 PM)

I can just imagine, even if drafting women then, when the real call comes, they are probably gonna just be calling the men, as if the woman has children, chances are, they would prefer the men who are physically stronger fighters and can handle heavier weapons, than women who are weaker. It's really twice as hard for a female to do a pull up compared to a male.

I don't see true equality ever happening in this situation ha.

But it sounds like drafted people only gets call in, if there is a real emergency and need to. I don't know why Vietnam was considered one that require drafted to be called on.

But when would they have the time to be properly trained to participate in real wars!

Can't imagine them throwing like sped up brief trained soldiers in there.




TieMeInKnottss -> RE: Drafting Women (12/7/2015 9:04:09 PM)

There actually was already a draft in place during Vietnam. It was just how things were done back then. Peace or war, if you were drafted, you were in the army. If you were lucky, you were drafted in that period after WW2 and before Korea and you spent your 4 years, stateside, preparing for the Red Army.

I don't think "equality" is truly the desire, not in the who gets drafted debate. Most of us here have never seen or known a draft. Most boys who register for selective service as required don't think twice really because, other than maybe a grandfather or old uncle, they have never known a "drafted" person. I believe more has to do with many career military womens' desire to be eligible for higher and bigger jobs which are typically going to be those that are "combat" eligible. Not many support staff make it to General so it is more of a desire to get rid of the glass ceiling for some but, to do so, they have to satisfy the ongoing and historical arguments against it and that has always been one.




MrRodgers -> RE: Drafting Women (12/8/2015 2:43:17 AM)

The single greatest determining factor in passing a military draft is to save money and to create a peacetime standing army. You take what they give you and the second which creates the first, is to have enough people to fight a war that is grossly unpopular. A war's unpopularity has never stopped the US from going to war in the past so.....?

I say that it is unconstitutional because of course a draft is involuntary servitude to the state. The PA. supreme court ruled against the US draft during the civil war. (I think it was Kneddler VS Lane 1863)

The United States Supreme Court did not get a chance to hear a challenge to the legislation, but a number of cases reached state courts. The most high-profile case dealing with the constitutionality of what became known as the Conscription Act came in Pennsylvania.

In Kneedler v. Lane, three men claimed the Act was an unconstitutional abrogation of the states’ rights to raise a militia, then seen as a constitutional means of dealing with insurrection. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court held that Congress had exceeded its authority in a 3-2 decision enjoining enforcement of the Act. Chief Justice Lowrey stated in his opinion, among other things, that the Conscription Act provided an “unauthorized substitute for the militia of the states.” He also feared that if the draft could be justified under Congress’s power to raise and support armies, Congress could exercise its power to compel people to give over their homes, their property, and their services to the government in other matters. Justice Woodward, concurring in the decision, made this clear in even starker terms.

Chief Justice of the US supreme court: Roger B. Taney noted that under the draft as constructed, the militia power of the states would be essentially worthless. “[S]uch a power over landsmen or seamen would have been repugnant to the principles of the government which was then framed and adopted.”


HERE

So the answer to your question is no. Neither sex should be drafted. If the US govt. wants to raise an army...pay for it, just like the rest of the military indust. complex.




KenDckey -> RE: Drafting Women (12/8/2015 11:47:28 AM)

In 1918, the Supreme Court ruled that the World War I draft did not violate the United States Constitution in the Selective Draft Law Cases. The Court summarized the history of conscription in England and in colonial America, a history that it read as establishing that the Framers envisioned compulsory military service as a governmental power. It held that the Constitution's grant to Congress of the powers to declare war and to create standing armies included the power to mandate conscription. It rejected arguments based on states' rights, the 13th Amendment, and other provisions of the Constitution.

Later, during the Vietnam War, a lower appellate court also concluded that the draft was constitutional. United States v. Holmes, 387 F.2d 781 (7th Cir.), cert. denied, 391 U.S. 936 (1968).[80] Justice William O. Douglas, in voting to hear the appeal in Holmes, agreed that the government had the authority to employ conscription in wartime, but argued that the constitutionality of a draft in the absence of a declaration of war was an open question, which the Supreme Court should address.

During the World War I era, the Supreme Court allowed the government great latitude in suppressing criticism of the draft. Examples include Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919)[81] and Gilbert v. Minnesota, 254 U.S. 325 (1920).[82] In subsequent decades, however, the Court has taken a much broader view of the extent to which advocacy speech is protected by the First Amendment. Thus, in 1971 the Court held it unconstitutional for a state to punish a man who entered a county courthouse wearing a jacket with the words "Fuck the Draft" visible on it. Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971).[83] Nevertheless, protesting the draft by the specific means of burning a draft registration card can be constitutionally prohibited, because of the government's interest in prohibiting the "nonspeech" element involved in destroying the card. United States v. O'Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968).[84]

In 1981, several men filed lawsuit in the case Rostker v. Goldberg, alleging that the Military Selective Service Act violates the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment by requiring that men only and not also women register with the Selective Service System. The Supreme Court upheld the act, stating that Congress's "decision to exempt women was not the accidental byproduct of a traditional way of thinking about women", that "since women are excluded from combat service by statute or military policy, men and women are simply not similarly situated for purposes of a draft or registration for a draft, and Congress' decision to authorize the registration of only men therefore does not violate the Due Process Clause", and that "the argument for registering women was based on considerations of equity, but Congress was entitled, in the exercise of its constitutional powers, to focus on the question of military need, rather than 'equity.'"[85]

The Rostker v. Goldberg opinion's dependence upon the existence of certain government "policies", which by definition have no force of law much less any constitutional weight, has garnered renewed scrutiny since the Department of Defense announced its decision in January 2013 to do away with most of the federal policies which have kept women from serving in combat roles in ground war situations. Both the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Air Force had by then already opened up virtually all positions in sea and air combat to women.




PeonForHer -> RE: Drafting Women (12/8/2015 3:24:29 PM)

FR

If you had women in the military, would some of them be all kind of aggressive, barking orders and stuff, while wearing camo, pony tails and bright red lipstick? Just wondering.




thompsonx -> RE: Drafting Women (12/8/2015 3:37:24 PM)


ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

If you had women in the military, would some of them be all kind of aggressive, barking orders and stuff, while wearing camo, pony tails and bright red lipstick? Just wondering.


You do not want to get into a serious pissing contest with women. When you fight male soldiers and get them snookered they will run up the white flag. When you fight female soldiers they start from the position that if they get captured they will be butt fucked into oblivion...they do not quit and will not back up a phouing inch. All you can do is shoot them in the phoquing head...it is your only chance in a fire fight with bitches.




PeonForHer -> RE: Drafting Women (12/8/2015 3:52:35 PM)

quote:


You do not want to get into a serious pissing contest with women. When you fight male soldiers and get them snookered they will run up the white flag. When you fight female soldiers they start from the position that if they get captured they will be butt fucked into oblivion...they do not quit and will not back up a phouing inch. All you can do is shoot them in the phoquing head...it is your only chance in a fire fight with bitches.


There you go again with the negative waves, Thompson. Romance can happen between opposing sides in a war. It happens all the time in the films.




thompsonx -> RE: Drafting Women (12/8/2015 3:54:58 PM)

Omg...[:(]I had forgotten about that.




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