RE: Black Lies Matter

RE: Black Lies Matter (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 10:16:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Don't you think it possible that the situation in many inner cities has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism? Butch I also think no---liberalism or conservatism are social/political worldviews that externally (that is, the policies our government sets and practices) affect the structure of our lives, and internally and probably more importantly, the types of choices we make. If this were the case than you would have to believe that blacks were lazy shiftless people just waiting to take advantage of liberal welfare. I don't believe you do... or i hope not. I am not disagreeing that welfare and other liberal social services are being taken advantage of...and that this attitude has become ingrained in some inner city areas. What i am saying is it is not liberalism that put these people on this path but racism and lack of job opportunities. Lets go back to the beginning of welfare. African Americans families at that time were suffering from racism and no jobs. To meet your contention they would have had to give up working...their self respect...and had a desire specific to black Americans to take advantage of liberals... OR... They needed help desperately and took what help they could get. I believe that because of racism and a desperate situation they took the help...not because they are lazy or shiftless. If they had not then they would have suffered greatly at the hands of that eras oppression... Help was needed then...and it still is. Being hungry and desperate has little to do with being liberal or conservative. Today the history of many inner city African Americans has formed a non-functioning society and if we don't figure ways to solve these problems together our society will continue to deteriorate. Blaming Democrats for something we all had a hand in is not the way to go in my opinion anyway. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 10:28:05 AM)
Let me add… I see nothing wrong with pointing our faulty policies and a harmful culture. I would just not blame people for the situation they find themselves in… Unless they refuse to help themselves rectify their problems. Butch

Phydeaux -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 10:28:34 AM)
Butch, I agree with almost all of what you said. I don't blame democrats for passing things and trying to get things done in the past. But it should be crystal clear that the approaches that the democrats have espoused have failed utterly. And rather than admit they have failed they double down on it. These entitlement policies are unsustainable and have created a dysfunctional sub society.

bounty44 -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 10:37:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Don't you think it possible that the situation in many inner cities has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism? Butch I also think no---liberalism or conservatism are social/political worldviews that externally (that is, the policies our government sets and practices) affect the structure of our lives, and internally and probably more importantly, the types of choices we make. If this were the case than you would have to believe that blacks were lazy shiftless people just waiting to take advantage of liberal welfare. I don't believe you do... or i hope not. I am not disagreeing that welfare and other liberal social services are being taken advantage of...and that this attitude has become ingrained in some inner city areas. What i am saying is it is not liberalism that put these people on this path but racism and lack of job opportunities. Lets go back to the beginning of welfare. African Americans families at that time were suffering from racism and no jobs. To meet your contention they would have had to give up working...their self respect...and had a desire specific to black Americans to take advantage of liberals... OR... They needed help desperately and took what help they could get. I believe that because of racism and a desperate situation they took the help...not because they are lazy or shiftless. If they had not then they would have suffered greatly at the hands of that eras oppression... Help was needed then...and it still is. Being hungry and desperate has little to do with being liberal or conservative. Today the history of many inner city African Americans has formed a non-functioning society and if we don't figure ways to solve these problems together our society will continue to deteriorate. Blaming Democrats for something we all had a hand in is not the way to go in my opinion anyway. Butch I think what you just said to start doesn't follow from what I said in my op. but to try to speak to what you said, no, I don't think blacks necessarily are lazy and shiftless, but people in general can be, and indeed are. entitlements with no expectations in return exacerbates that part of our fallen nature. if you are a thief, its wrong for me to leave a hundred dollars laying about to tempt you to steal. the government ultimately doesn't help people by appealing to and "trapping" them in their baser attributes. and yes, i believe being hungry does have to do with being liberal or conservative. when it comes down to final choices, i see it as, do i take care of myself, do i allow others to help me, do i allow the government to help me, or do i expect/demand the government to help me. one can view those choices along a continuum of the social political spectrum, the first pair being on the right, the latter pair being more on the left. and what phydeaux said... and to tack on to that...its a part of the whole democratic plantation.

TallClevDom -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 10:43:55 AM)
quote: and yes, i believe being hungry does have to do with being liberal or conservative. when it comes down to final choices, i see it as, do i take care of myself, do i allow others to help me, do i allow the government to help me, or do i expect/demand the government to help me. one can view those choices along a continuum of the social political spectrum, the first pair being on the right, the latter pair being more on the left. You may not realize it, but you probably don't take care of yourself and get government handouts in a variety of fashions. Have you ever deducted your mortgage interest from your taxes? If so, all taxpayers without mortgages helped finance your home. Have you taken the exemptions for your children or any of the numerous tax credits available for them? If so, anyone without children has subsidized your choice to have children. Did you send your kids to public schools? If so, anyone without a child in that school system helped subsidize your child's education. Face it, almost all Americans have their hand out looking for something free, why is there such a focus on the poor? I didn't even mention any of the bank bailout or numerous corporate subsidies (which amount to more than the budget for public assistance).

ManOeuvre -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 11:01:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Most of you are deliberately ignoring the deliberate destabilization of black families. In the UK, people who are out of work receive help no matter if the father is still in the home. For over 60 years, black women were not eligible for aid if their husbands were home. Recidivism rates of criminals are far reduced if during prison they are put into group therapy that addresses this. We know that children are far more likely to succeed if they come from two parent families. When it was made impossible for blacks to have two parents at home, the results were predictable. Higher gang rates, higher drop out rates, higher criminalization rates. I don't think you've demonstrated that it was made impossible for blacks to have two parents at home. Also, I would hesitate to attribute instability to "deliberate destabilization". It can be tempting to attribute phenomena to organization and forethought, but you run the risk of conflating correlation with causation, and eventually causation with conspiracy. Movers most prime; often matters most mundane.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 11:02:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy God, this whole thread is garbage. • American police officers killed 74 unarmed black people in 2015. • unarmed black men were seven times more likely than unarmed white men to die by police gunfire. • An analysis of F.B.I. data from 2010 to 2012 concluded that the police killed black men ages 15 to 19 at a rate 21 times greater than the statistic for white men the same age. How about a source, cloudboy? And BTW...I notice you didn't say anything about the OP of the thread? Is that because it is crap too or because you can't refute it?

bounty44 -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 11:21:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TallClevDom quote: and yes, i believe being hungry does have to do with being liberal or conservative. when it comes down to final choices, i see it as, do i take care of myself, do i allow others to help me, do i allow the government to help me, or do i expect/demand the government to help me. one can view those choices along a continuum of the social political spectrum, the first pair being on the right, the latter pair being more on the left. You may not realize it, but you probably don't take care of yourself and get government handouts in a variety of fashions. Have you ever deducted your mortgage interest from your taxes? If so, all taxpayers without mortgages helped finance your home. Have you taken the exemptions for your children or any of the numerous tax credits available for them? If so, anyone without children has subsidized your choice to have children. Did you send your kids to public schools? If so, anyone without a child in that school system helped subsidize your child's education. Face it, almost all Americans have their hand out looking for something free, why is there such a focus on the poor? I didn't even mention any of the bank bailout or numerous corporate subsidies (which amount to more than the budget for public assistance). according to the criteria you would want to make apparently the only people doing so would be the "life free or die" folks we see on natgeo, or the homesteading prepper types. but then, even then they all rely on goods made by other people who at some point or another have been helped by government don't they? so lets just have even more government in our lives right? im aware it has its hand in one way shape, form or another in our lives but sorry, that doesn't translate into "you probably don't care of yourself." that's a variant of Obama's "you didn't build that" position. the emphasis on "the poor" is such because the direct costs are tremendous, that is where abuse occurs most visibly and more importantly, as I pointed out, it makes people dependent on the government to the point of degrading them. quote: I didn't even mention any of the bank bailout or numerous corporate subsidies (which amount to more than the budget for public assistance). and that---requires some documentation/referencing...

Phydeaux -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 12:24:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TallClevDom Face it, almost all Americans have their hand out looking for something free, why is there such a focus on the poor? I didn't even mention any of the bank bailout or numerous corporate subsidies (which amount to more than the budget for public assistance). No actually, quite a large number of us are trying to cut or minimize the governments role. And the line about corporate subsidies is pure clap trap.

Lucylastic -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 12:27:25 PM)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/classic-apps/year-of-reckoning-police-kill-nearly-1000/2015/12/26/e9697506-9cfd-11e5-8728-1af6af208198_story.html http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/34246-the-washington-post-downplays-the-number-of-people-killed-by-police-in-2015 http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed/ http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/01/opinion/a-better-standard-for-the-use-of-deadly-force.html?_r=0 there are numerous reports studies and lists of people being killed by cops, black white hispanic and other. That you are trying to compartmentalize and disagree over the numbers with pathetic attempts to downplay police violence brutality and corruption is a fucking joke. Until someobody gives the FBI and other departments correct accounting of deaths, buy guns, and or cops, it IS under reported. Instead of placing blame on a colour, why not actually do something about the problem, which is the deaths of so MANY people by questionable methods.

cloudboy -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 3:51:48 PM)
You are missing the point. If you have some separate unrelated crime issues, start a separate thread. We are not talking about general crime or homicide statistics. The highest rate crime rate in the USA is white-on-white crime with the highest homicide statistics in the nation, but this would be unrelated to rate at which police officers shot and killed white people.

cloudboy -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 3:54:35 PM)
He is so far detached from reality and is such a devotee of quack-links and thinking -- that debates with him only result in denial (by him) or misdirection (he veers off course to make some other point that he cares about.)

cloudboy -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 4:04:51 PM)
These idiots hold more dear to myths than to history -- so fragile is there being that they have no choice otherwise. They know, but won't admit that the BLM movement is not asserting that black lives are more precious that white lives. BLM is underling an indisputable fact -- that the lives of black citizens in this country historically have been discounted and devalued. People who are unacquainted with this history are therefore uncomfortable with the language of the BLM. BLM is pretty similar, actually, to the voting rights and civil rights actions of the past -- namely not wanting to be devalued as voters or citizens -- and in the case of BLM not to be mistreated by the police. Not only do many whites feel hostile to BLM, they actually align themselves with the Police and George Zimmerman. Somewhat similar to the Police officer who shot Tamir Rice, there's little empathy or concern for the life (lives) taken. The officer in the Rice case didn't even try to administer any kind of first aid and just let a twelve year old boy bleed out on a playground. It's really hard to regard such a Police as a public servant.

Phydeaux -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 11:08:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy You are missing the point. The highest rate crime rate in the USA is white-on-white crime with the highest homicide statistics in the nation, but this would be unrelated to rate at which police officers shot and killed white people. And you are hallucinating badly. There is no reputable source (you know cdc, fbi) that says per capita crime rates of whites are anywhere near comparable to blacks. For example: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6227a1.htm Which says that black homicide rates are SIXTEEN TIMES whites.

Phydeaux -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 11:18:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy These idiots hold more dear to myths than to history -- so fragile is there being that they have no choice otherwise. They know, but won't admit that the BLM movement is not asserting that black lives are more precious that white lives. BLM is underling an indisputable fact -- that the lives of black citizens in this country historically have been discounted and devalued. People who are unacquainted with this history are therefore uncomfortable with the language of the BLM. BLM is pretty similar, actually, to the voting rights and civil rights actions of the past -- namely not wanting to be devalued as voters or citizens -- and in the case of BLM not to be mistreated by the police. Not only do many whites feel hostile to BLM, they actually align themselves with the Police and George Zimmerman. Somewhat similar to the Police officer who shot Tamir Rice, there's little empathy or concern for the life (lives) taken. The officer in the Rice case didn't even try to administer any kind of first aid and just let a twelve year old boy bleed out on a playground. It's really hard to regard such a Police as a public servant. Yup. Count me in the 'hostile to blm' crowd. Yup, I have little empathy - charge a police man. Die. Choose to be a thug (giantle giant my ass) - I'm ok if you die. Resist arrest - expect to be restrained. Now, the case where the video shows the cop killing the AA guy that was walking by - thats murder, and the cop should fry for it. But that was Chicago. Are you really surprised that the democrats sat on that so Rahm could get re-elected? However, I think most people in that crowd - that think the cops were criminially negligent for failure to administer CPR. Ditto for Rice. Ditto for Gray. More whites die by police violence than blacks. Most of them deserved it too. Police have the power to use lethal force. Obey them.

Greta75 -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 11:21:20 PM)
quote: that the BLM movement is not asserting that black lives are more precious that white lives. Actually as a non-white, I think BLM is asserting that black lives are more precious than Asian, Hispanic, American Indian, all other minorities. They only care about black lives and nothing else. It's race-based. They aren't fighting for equality for humanity for all people at all.

Phydeaux -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/2/2016 11:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic https://www.washingtonpost.com/classic-apps/year-of-reckoning-police-kill-nearly-1000/2015/12/26/e9697506-9cfd-11e5-8728-1af6af208198_story.html http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/34246-the-washington-post-downplays-the-number-of-people-killed-by-police-in-2015 http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed/ http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/01/opinion/a-better-standard-for-the-use-of-deadly-force.html?_r=0 there are numerous reports studies and lists of people being killed by cops, black white hispanic and other. That you are trying to compartmentalize and disagree over the numbers with pathetic attempts to downplay police violence brutality and corruption is a fucking joke. Until someobody gives the FBI and other departments correct accounting of deaths, buy guns, and or cops, it IS under reported. Instead of placing blame on a colour, why not actually do something about the problem, which is the deaths of so MANY people by questionable methods. 40,000,000 police contacts per year. 400 deaths. Are you fucking kidding me you think this is a major problem? that is one fatality per 100,000 interactions. Cops deal with terrorists; they deal with armed people. Domestic violence. People on drugs. Yep. Put me firmly in the attaboy camp. Blue lives matter.

BlackWidowAlma -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/3/2016 12:04:42 AM)
Saying "All lives matter" at a BLACK lives matter march, is the equivalent of me walking with a small group of people through the crowd of a breast cancer awareness march with picket signs, shouting "Alzheimer's awareness too!".. The point that I am making is that, if I were to do something like that, I'd be attempting to take importance and VERY much needed attention from the general public towards a SPECIFIC problem constantly ignored because it is a PRIVILEGE to be able to do so, FREELY given to a CERTAIN LARGE group of people. WE KNOW "All lives matter", but we ALSO KNOW and have known for sometime, that certain people are considered more "human" than others based solely on the color of their skin on a first look basis. WE KNOW also that not "all lives" are suffering from institutionalized racism and dehumanization. WE KNOW that not "all lives" are STILL being hunted and killed like.... Well not even animals, because y'all march for dogs before you do black PEOPLE. HUMANS. WE KNOW that not "all lives" are 5yrs behind the average white person here in America in the public schooling system. WE KNOW that not "all lives" have had the chance to actually come from a foundation, since in prior years, that foundation (independent successful black communities) were BOMBED repeatedly throughout history... It's like breaking someone's legs then demanding that they walk! Hence Black Lives Matter... Black Lives Matter NEVER meant ALL others didn't!! If that were true, we wouldn't have WHITE, HISPANIC, and ASIAN allies! And another thing, the ONLY reason as to why you hear us say "black people can't be racist" is because we can be ONLY PREJUDICE! To be RACIST means that YOU are apart of a group of people that, like it or not, CONTINUE to profit from, exploit, and STEAL from, all while using what was STOLEN to build YOUR very own "EMPIRE" upon OUR backs! WE have NEVER benefited from such a fucked up system, towards ANY race!

PeonForHer -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/3/2016 4:10:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: that the BLM movement is not asserting that black lives are more precious that white lives. Actually as a non-white, I think BLM is asserting that black lives are more precious than Asian, Hispanic, American Indian, all other minorities. They only care about black lives and nothing else. It's race-based. They aren't fighting for equality for humanity for all people at all. I find that conclusion utterly baffling. To me, it's like saying that the advice that locking your front door is important implies that locking your windows doesn't matter; that lacing up your shoes to stop yourself tripping over is the only thing it's important to do, ever, to stop yourself tripping over; that the importance of having protein in your diet means carbohydrates and fats don't matter .... I honestly find myself shaking my head in disbelief at this one.

thishereboi -> RE: Black Lies Matter (1/3/2016 8:02:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Oh dear, you are trying to school me? Actually if you want to address me correctly, it's Doctor, some of us have education, if you insist calling me little girl, I assume you're a nasty old man, you might be qualified to school somebody in how to be a racist, I think cow tipping would also be an ability you might have, but logic and seeing things in perspective sadly seems to be out of your grasp, as much as posting pictures So old man, despite your mental disability, I would suggest to see things in relation, even somebody with your limited mental capacity should be able to do it. As for your schooling, I give you a shout if I want to learn how to cow tip, muck out a barn or just be a complete and utter twat, but don't hold your breath. doctor? wow, color me surprised. But I am not sure why you think he is the one to qualified to teach racism when you did such a bang up job in post #48. "A couple of my friends are black and they are quite well educated, you can't say "all blacks" but one thing I've noticed especially in the US is, that if you go out of the nicer areas and you talk to blacks, they are hard to understand and they dress a bit strange, I hope I don't sound like a terrible racist, but if I would have a business, I'd hesitate to employ them as the "Yo" stuff, gangster talk and bling wouldn't be the way I would want to have my business represented. On the other hand, nobody ever tells those kids, they live in an environment where that is the norm, so you can't really blame them all that much. Then you have that whole rap culture, people like them made it big by acting like thugs, for every Morgan Freeman, Will Smith, Denzel, you got a bunch of Puff Daddys and guys who glamorize violence and crime, that appeals to kids. " I guess it's a good thing for the people of Detroit that you are not in charge there. According to your standards, none of them would be able to work.

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