quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Things can change a lot in 4 years, phydeaux, so why the hollering that the sky is falling....
its already been pushed forward two years and isnt likely to last that long it has problems with dems and prps...oh and its hardly news...as most of is is guestimation.

quote:

But repealing it without replacing it with a workable alternative would mean $87 billion less in federal revenue over a 10-year time period, which represents a large source of funding for the ACA's coverage expansions, according to a report by Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

quote:

However, a study by United Benefit Advisors, an independent employee benefits advisory organization, found that by 2020, 50 percent of employers will be subject to the "Cadillac" tax. By 2020 it will hit 73.8 percent of employers, based on a 6 percent trending rate increase compounded each year.

quote:

73% of all policies will be affected by it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

as I said, it was delayed until 2018 and between them they pushed it back to 2020.
If the repubs come up with a plan and win in november, what makes you think it will be standing in any way?
DId you note at the end of the link *ahem* that fido shared??

quote:

But repealing it without replacing it with a workable alternative would mean $87 billion less in federal revenue over a 10-year time period, which represents a large source of funding for the ACA's coverage expansions, according to a report by Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Fidos quote also states..

quote:

However, a study by United Benefit Advisors, an independent employee benefits advisory organization, found that by 2020, 50 percent of employers will be subject to the "Cadillac" tax. By 2020 it will hit 73.8 percent of employers, based on a 6 percent trending rate increase compounded each year.

NOT

quote:

73% of all policies will be affected by it.

as he said

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

If the potential consumer protections were not removed, insurance rates would be cheaper like Germany. Germany is doing fine and has had socialized health care for about 130 years, one of the oldest socialized healthcare systems in the world. Problem is Republicans fought tooth and nail so any sort of market regulation could not be put in place, hence the inflation of the market, just Glass-Steagall and derivatives

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i always find it instructive that the lefties often say, in response to the republican objections to obamacare "come up with a plan" or "what's the republican plan" or "the republicans don't have a plan."

its smacks of their penchant for having the government involved in order to fix things. among other things, government "intervention" drives and third party payer systems drive up costs.

apart from that over the years republicans have repeatedly offered up solutions to reign in medical costs, the best "plan" might to actually let the free market work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lamale

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i always find it instructive that the lefties often say, in response to the republican objections to obamacare "come up with a plan" or "what's the republican plan" or "the republicans don't have a plan."

its smacks of their penchant for having the government involved in order to fix things. among other things, government "intervention" drives and third party payer systems drive up costs.

apart from that over the years republicans have repeatedly offered up solutions to reign in medical costs, the best "plan" might to actually let the free market work.

First, there is almost no such thing as a "free market", anywhere. It's a fantasy put forth by those with sufficient wealth and power to rig things to their advantage through bribes, collusion, corporate welfare, "tax breaks", and monopolies, and swallowed whole by people incapable of critical thought.

Examples of powerful entities laughing at "free markets" range from railroads trying through intimidation to stop truckers from hauling freight, to wine retailers bribing politicians through 'donations' to allow collusion to set retail prices, to oil companies and airlines getting together on their prices. There was a period where California exempted insurance companies (of all sorts, including health insurance) from anti-trust regulation and allowed them to share information so they could blackball individuals with pre-existing conditions and set floors on rates. Or how about major sports? Think you could put together a pro baseball or football team and get to join the leagues? Any of those sound 'free market-y' to you?

So yeah, with the exception of things like prostitution and drugs (illegal and unregulated enterprises), there's no 'free market' except in political fantasy. And some people want to go back to the despicable state we were in before, where if you lost your job and health insurance, and were, say, a diabetic, you could NEVER get insurance from anyone again because you had a pre-existing condition of being diabetic.

I can't understand why people are still beating their chests about this. The republican politicians, gutless cowards to the last man and woman, do not have the balls to take ACA health insurance away from 35 million people now that they have it, and they have absolutely no idea of what to replace it with except going back to the horrid way things were. Those 48 times the republican sheep in congress tried a vote to repeal the ACA while praying that it wouldn't pass were living proof of Einstein's observation that insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

It's done. People opposed to the ACA need to move on to screaming about repealing gay marriage laws, or pro-choice abortion laws, or not keeping the brain-dead alive indefinitely laws, or putting prayer back in school laws, or any of the dozens of other utterly insane social issues republican politicians promise their voters but somehow fail to EVER deliver after getting elected. EVER.

Socially, the majority in the country have had enough of both republicans and republican-lite politicians masquerading as democrats, and are moving left, especially the young. Social change in a democracy is always brought about by the young. They are a powerful force.

Stock up on antacid - you'll be needing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

If the potential consumer protections were not removed, insurance rates would be cheaper like Germany. Germany is doing fine and has had socialized health care for about 130 years, one of the oldest socialized healthcare systems in the world. Problem is Republicans fought tooth and nail so any sort of market regulation could not be put in place, hence the inflation of the market, just Glass-Steagall and derivatives

Direct comparisons between the US and Germany are suspect.

Germans is a much more racially homogenious. Their work ethic is not the same as mainstream US. They don't have slip / fall attorneys gathering ridiculous jury awards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lamale

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i always find it instructive that the lefties often say, in response to the republican objections to obamacare "come up with a plan" or "what's the republican plan" or "the republicans don't have a plan."

its smacks of their penchant for having the government involved in order to fix things. among other things, government "intervention" drives and third party payer systems drive up costs.

apart from that over the years republicans have repeatedly offered up solutions to reign in medical costs, the best "plan" might to actually let the free market work.

First, there is almost no such thing as a "free market", anywhere.

quote:


I can't understand why people are still beating their chests about this.

quote:


Socially, the majority in the country have had enough of both republicans and republican-lite politicians masquerading as democrats, and are moving left,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: lamale

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i always find it instructive that the lefties often say, in response to the republican objections to obamacare "come up with a plan" or "what's the republican plan" or "the republicans don't have a plan."

its smacks of their penchant for having the government involved in order to fix things. among other things, government "intervention" drives and third party payer systems drive up costs.

apart from that over the years republicans have repeatedly offered up solutions to reign in medical costs, the best "plan" might to actually let the free market work.

First, there is almost no such thing as a "free market", anywhere. It's a fantasy put forth by those with sufficient wealth and power to rig things to their advantage through bribes, collusion, corporate welfare, "tax breaks", and monopolies, and swallowed whole by people incapable of critical thought.

Examples of powerful entities laughing at "free markets" range from railroads trying through intimidation to stop truckers from hauling freight, to wine retailers bribing politicians through 'donations' to allow collusion to set retail prices, to oil companies and airlines getting together on their prices. There was a period where California exempted insurance companies (of all sorts, including health insurance) from anti-trust regulation and allowed them to share information so they could blackball individuals with pre-existing conditions and set floors on rates. Or how about major sports? Think you could put together a pro baseball or football team and get to join the leagues? Any of those sound 'free market-y' to you?

So yeah, with the exception of things like prostitution and drugs (illegal and unregulated enterprises), there's no 'free market' except in political fantasy. And some people want to go back to the despicable state we were in before, where if you lost your job and health insurance, and were, say, a diabetic, you could NEVER get insurance from anyone again because you had a pre-existing condition of being diabetic.

I can't understand why people are still beating their chests about this. The republican politicians, gutless cowards to the last man and woman, do not have the balls to take ACA health insurance away from 35 million people now that they have it, and they have absolutely no idea of what to replace it with except going back to the horrid way things were. Those 48 times the republican sheep in congress tried a vote to repeal the ACA while praying that it wouldn't pass were living proof of Einstein's observation that insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

It's done. People opposed to the ACA need to move on to screaming about repealing gay marriage laws, or pro-choice abortion laws, or not keeping the brain-dead alive indefinitely laws, or putting prayer back in school laws, or any of the dozens of other utterly insane social issues republican politicians promise their voters but somehow fail to EVER deliver after getting elected. EVER.

Socially, the majority in the country have had enough of both republicans and republican-lite politicians masquerading as democrats, and are moving left, especially the young. Social change in a democracy is always brought about by the young. They are a powerful force.

Stock up on antacid - you'll be needing it.

I cant say it better than this..
Good post

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers



Repubs will keep some form of the ACA to pander to the insurance industry and the medical industrial complex. The ACA mandates medical insurance, so it mandates some very nice profits...don't forget.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

a very thoughtful article on the free market and healthcare:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/liberals-are-wrong-free-market-health-care-is-possible/254648/

and if I can pick up a little on arrow's #2 objection: "Barriers to entry. Arrow notes that you can't just set up shop on the side of a road and practice medicine: you must have a license to be a physician, and gaining that license requires years of expensive schooling and training. As a result of this constraint on the supply of physicians, there is a constraint on the supply of medical services."

ive mentioned this before and it didn't get much traction. the professional/academic governing bodies in medicine relatively strictly limit the amount of schools that can confer medical degrees, thus by extension, limiting the amount of people who can become doctors. the "constraint" arrow mentions above is more or less artificially or even somewhat arbitrarily created.

if there were more medical schools, there would be more doctors. more doctors means competition (bad word for liberals I know) in the market, which drives prices down while at the same time, encourages and leads to better quality.