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RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 4:45:53 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		This right here is horse hooey:
quote:


He broke the rules, but, maybe he didn't break them in "his" mind until he was curtly apprised of that fact.


He went over to touch a naked woman he did not know. Men KNOW they are not supposed to touch women's behinds if they don't know said woman. He does not get a pass for this. And for him to possibly think in his mind that it's ok to do so ... well... he's lucky he still has testicles.

Warmly,
sunshine

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RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 4:57:28 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

This right here is horse hooey:
quote:


He broke the rules, but, maybe he didn't break them in "his" mind until he was curtly apprised of that fact.


He went over to touch a naked woman he did not know. Men KNOW they are not supposed to touch women's behinds if they don't know said woman. He does not get a pass for this. And for him to possibly think in his mind that it's ok to do so ... well... he's lucky he still has testicles.

Warmly,
sunshine

Exactly. We were at a play space in LA - and one of our friends was standing in the kitchen, naked, still in sub space when a mouth breather came up and touched her behind and said "Ohhhh, it's so warm!" M had a chat with him (told him if he touched one of M's friends again, he'd draw back a bloody stump) and then escorted him over to the owner and watched him leave. Earlier in the same evening, the guy interrupted a scene where I was Topping by asking if he could "have a turn hitting the sub" and also followed me around.

We later saw the same guy at a social, where the guy tried to explain to M that since it's a play space, he should be allowed to touch the women because that's what they're there for. Needless to say, after that he wasn't welcome anywhere.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 1/14/2016 5:00:54 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 4:57:38 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		Maybe that clown comes from the same bog that the other socks/peewits come from and thus has the idea that other peoples rules don't apply to him/them ?

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 4:59:20 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Could you have been more diplomatic? Sure.

But that's the wrong question. The right one is should you have been, and the answer to that is 'hell no'.

The Man would have been a lot more vulgar about it. If he hadn't of immediately decked him.

And I'm left wondering if he would have tried this with a male top. Or if he assumed that since you're female, you would not have been direct since girls are taught not to 'make nice'. That he considered you a girl, and not a grown adult because in his mind only men qualify as that.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 5:02:58 PM   
DocStrange


Posts: 1076
Joined: 6/10/2015
Status: offline 		From the sub side of things, the response was perfectly appropriate. When submitting I am handing over my mind and body to the Domme. Part of that hand over is the trust no harm will come to me. Including violation of my subspace during the scene. If a Domme did not keep me protected, the trust would be gone and I would not be able to let go mentally anymore.

I do not do a lot of public play. When I do I make sure to have the talk on who can touch me or be part of the scene.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 5:08:02 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

This right here is horse hooey:
quote:


He broke the rules, but, maybe he didn't break them in "his" mind until he was curtly apprised of that fact.


He went over to touch a naked woman he did not know. Men KNOW they are not supposed to touch women's behinds if they don't know said woman. He does not get a pass for this. And for him to possibly think in his mind that it's ok to do so ... well... he's lucky he still has testicles.

Warmly,
sunshine

Exactly.


I'd also like to add that ... just so we are clear... Even if a fellow DOES know the gal, he doesn't have permission to touch without PERMISSION.



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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 6:35:23 PM   
mistian


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/10/2016
Status: offline 		Was there ever a point where diplomacy would have worked? I get the impression that the guy was determined to touch and you did the minimum necessary to make him back off. That's fair. Someone like that probably would have ignored more polite phrasing.

Honestly, even knowing that a stranger had been close enough that he could have touched me during a scene if the Top hadn't intervened would bother me a bit when I thought about it later and was deciding whether to do another public scene. It would be reassuring to me to know that you made him back off as fast as possible and didn't play around being nice to him.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 8:09:24 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

The lack of a marker (if that's the case) would indicate (in some dungeon rules) a lack of the desire on the part of the scenemaker to delineate the private space.
I dunno.

I have to assume there WAS a marker (I don't know if I've been in any dungeon that didn't have this rule, whether it be Edges or the South Bay Spot or, heaven forbid, the grossness of the Power Exchange up in San Francisco).

So, if there was a marker, then THAT is when the DM should have advised the interloper to stand back.
The DM would have done that gently (always remember who is paying the bills!) - at least the first time.

You can't expect the talent (which, in this case, was LP and her partner in crime) to have to enforce the house rules.
They might not enforce those house rules as delicately as someone who NEEDS those paying customers might, for example.

I've only been to South Bay Spot for the rope munch, but I didn't see any markers around the various equipment. They don't have them up in San Francisco at Alchemy. The Citadel sorta has a designated area, the raised platform with steps has notices for people not playing not to go up there, at least at some of the parties, but there are also stations around the back wall that aren't "marked."

I've only been touched non-consensually once, IIRC at the Scenery in Hayward. Again, I don't recall there being any "markers" there. Also, "talent" usually refers to paid performers, not people playing at a local dungeon.

LP, I think that was completely reasonable of you. Being more subtle (either calling in the DM or just gesturing at him) might have worked, but he deserved to be embarrassed!

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RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 8:28:30 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		THe only thing Im aware of, the only thing I want to be aware of, is the scene, the bottom and energy, oh and music.. Interrupt during it, Im likely to have a similar response.
The last few years Ive played in public a few times, It has been in a mixed number of spaces, houses, private, public, many roomed play spaces and warehouse type, much of the big issue that crops up is too many people in the play space, or two many stations for the space.
most of it is "accident" or not thinking,But doing it to touch either or any participant is invading more than just personal space.

One event I was out was reasonable, play and social space were separated, but they put and inversion table smack bang at the side of the main traffic flow. We played or tried, for about thirty seconds... the table moved quite violently by people brushing past it.
I noticed they changed the position the following event.



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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 10:58:41 PM   
crumpets


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Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I hope you realize you are supporting my case.


Just to be clear, I wasn't supporting or not supporting your case.

As a lurker, and as a guy, and as a paying customer, I have taken the orientations, and I have been invited into scenes, and I have certainly NOT been invited into scenes, so I was simply asking for more information about what transpired.

In fact, I just remembered my very first transgression at such a club in my life. I had to be around 18 at the time, and I was at Plato's Retreat (I'm sure that dates me) way back when Times Square was a hell hole, and, well, I saw this lady relaxing naked lying on a bench, and I, being naked myself (with just a towel) sat next to her and, nonchalantly touched her boobs. She looked sweetly at me, and simply said something to the effect of "not now honey, thanks", and that was it. I walked away, of course, and, being 18, I was red in the face too, but, heck, it's all part of exploration to learn boundaries.

I don't remember if Plato's Retreat even had an orientation (thinking back, I don't remember one), and it sure cost a pretty penny to get in (something like 60 bucks in those days was a LOT of money for a poor college-aged kid), but, fast forward a good thirty years and I don't remember a single club out here that doesn't have an orientation. I guess the Citadel doesn't (as I recall), nor Bondage A Go Go, but, Edges certainly did, as does The South Bay Spot.

In that orientation, the "House Rules" are extremely clear, and the violation of space is clear as is the fact that the space delineation is the responsibility of the players on stage, so to speak. Even in a warehouse atmosphere (which Edges was).

So, I'm only asking for clarification on whether the space was clearly defined, but, even so, I presume it was ('cuz touching ass is almost certainly not accepted in almost all cases, and doesn't really need to be spelled out).

In summary, there are PRIOR RESPONSIBILITIES that needed to have been done - and there is no indication whatsoever in the OP that they were performed. So, I was simply asking for clarification, and in pointing out that it's, in my experience anyway, first the DUNGEON'S responsibility and then, second, the SCENEMAKER's responsibility, to delineate the primary boundaries.

(Although I have to reiterate, touching ass is almost always off limits without a visual or verbal ok!)

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RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 11:08:16 PM   
crumpets


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Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
Men KNOW they are not supposed to touch women's behinds if they don't know said woman.


Actually, three or four consecutive wrongs don't make a right.

I don't know the situation, but, there could have been as many as this many wrongs ...
POTENTIAL WRONG 1. The orientation either didn't exist, or sucked at explaining boundaries ...
POTENTIAL WRONG 2. The dungeon master didn't see the infraction or didn't enforce the boundaries ...
POTENTIAL WRONG 3. The scene players didn't themselves delineate any boundaries...
POTENTIAL WRONG 4. The perpetrator himself may have chosen to ignore all those boundaries...

Anyway, the real question in the OP was whether the curt response from the OP was warranted, and, my recommendation to that request would depend solely on whether the owner wants that person (or anyone like him - which is pretty much lots and lots and lots of paying customers) to be a paying customer in the future.

If "I" wanted a paying customer to return, yet, that paying customer either didn't know the rules (i.e., no orientation or lousy orientation, no boundary or lousy boundary settings, etc.) or he chose to flout the rules (I think I made it clear that this is a definite possibility that I do not overlook!), then it's more appropriate to be nicer in a first approbation than to not be nicer by a long shot.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 11:14:47 PM   
crumpets


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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
M had a chat with him (told him if he touched one of M's friends again, he'd draw back a bloody stump)


I've been to as many clubs as many men, and, well, nobody ever said that to me.

I'm sure there are fools, and damned fools in all the clubs, but, most lurkers simply lurk.
Nothing more. Nothing less.

In fact, I've been (rarely) the "product", for example, at that grossest of gross clubs, the Power Exchange, when I went up to the second or third floor to see what the "gay" section was like.

Auuuurgh. To be immediately followed left and right and left and right again and again, in just a *single* pass to check out the huge cavernous setting, was frustrating to no end, so, I "do" see where the anger comes in with unwanted unasked for attention.

Still, I didn't threaten anyone with a bloody stump. I just walked faster and further away, and back down the stairs, to the safety of the hetero side of the warehouse. I guess if they touched my ass, I wouldn't have been so kind though, so, I do see where some of the anger comes from.

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RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/14/2016 11:31:17 PM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
"talent" usually refers to paid performers, not people playing at a local dungeon.


I guess you're right. I have to think back a bit, and I may be mixing my delineation lines, as it has been years since I've actually been to a club (they're so utterly boring, just to watch, that they're not worth the time and effort).

To your points, I must admit I haven't been to South Bay Spot even, as the new Edges was the last one I have been to and I didn't mean to imply I was at the SBS yet, although I plan on attending at some point in the future.

The last Edges by the SJC airport had, as folks will recall, a seating and food area, and then a long hallway, and then a big cavernous dungeon to the side, with an upstairs above the entrance, as I recall, with a birdcage, Saint Andrews Cross, locked closet, and medical table (as I recall) . The old Edges (it was called something else though) further up 880 or 680 had just as big a warehouse, and then an area in the back that was elevated.

Thinking more about it, neither Edges had ropes, per se, as I recall, which was more at downstairs in the Power Exchange. The Power Exchange had black painted cubicles downstairs, which had the ropes with clips on the sides. The doors were at the swinger's club, named The Forum (forumx was the web site, as I recall).

But, as I recall, the rules of the house were drummed into us in all cases, and specifically, I remember, by Alex and Allie at Edges, for example, such that it was pretty clear that nobody was to intrude upon a scene unless it was obvious that they could do so.

I do remember a guy with his wife or girlfriend, Asian as I recall, on a bed at the forum, where the door to the bedroom was wide open, and lurkers naturally lined up at the foot of the bed, and the guy would select various lurkers, one by one, to fuck her. I was utterly appalled at what I saw, with guys stroking themselves in plain sight en masse (I've never ever done that in my entire life!) but, everyone, including the husband (or whomever relationship he had with her) was wholly nonchalant about it, simply selecting one guy or the other, to penetrate his girl on the bed (gorgeous, by the way, but too thin for my tastes).

So, I guess, that is the dream for the paying customer. I dunno. I thought it was gross, but, who am I to judge, given that I was there to tell my tale.

Point is, sometimes the lurkers DO get invited, and sometimes they are allowed to be rather close, and to touch and do more ... but, most of the time, lurking at a club is a total waste of good time and effort which could be better spent reading a book by firelight relaxing at home (if you ask me).

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/15/2016 2:51:22 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Just to address some points... (I don't want to leave anyone hanging and hey, it's better than the sock threads.)

Des, that's a good question. Would the same thing have happened had I been a male top? While I'd like to say it shouldn't happen at all, there is a possibility that the guy didn't think I would stop him because women are supposed to be "nice" and all of that. As a top, however, I'd hope the responsibility to the bottom overrides any gender thing. (I'd have had the same reaction if the person approaching was female.)

For mistian, I don't really know if more diplomacy would have worked. The whole incident only lasted a few seconds, so I fully admit opening my mouth without any time to mull it over.

Lucy, you've played at this club, so you know what the fire/medical area is like. (Sorry, folks. I tried going to the club's profile on the other site to direct people to a good picture of that area. None of the shots were really good to give people a visual aide.)

Andalusite, first, looking lovely, as always. I thought it was a bit weird when I moved here and they actually did use the word performance. I think I even said, "you mean they are going to play, right?" This is the only place I've lived where it gets described like that and I have some friends in the south that thought the term was funny as hell.

For crumpets, I'll give credit where it's due. There are times you bring up interesting points of conversation. I've been to the former Edges but it's been something like five or six years ago. (The location before the one that was closer to the airport.) When I made the arrangement to go, I did a lot of email back and forth with Allie to see if an agreement could be made for coming from out of town and not having to make an extra trip to attend an orientation. Sometimes, club owners will work with you if it's a case of a longer driving distance or when you are on a vacation, etc, *if* you can provide references from other places you've played. (I actually do recommend writing a club in advance if you are going to be in the area on a trip or something and you want to indulge in your kink while you are there. Clubs love testimonials from people that come from out of town. It's good advertisement.)

None of the clubs that I've ever attended had roped off areas between players and onlookers. Some cons will have that if they are designating male only/female only space or submissive safe space. There's no markings on the floor that say "don't cross this line" or anything like that in open warehouse type spaces. It's an interesting thought but I'd have to do some serious thinking on how a club would maintain that while at the same time keep the right atmosphere.

Door fees between lurkers and players and who is paying the bills. I'll be the first person to tell you, I don't mind paying door fees. (My exception to this is that I don't believe in making a presenter pay if they are giving a demo and their demo bottom should get in free, too. I think it's the very least that the club/organization can do.) When I go, I go to play or for one of the other social benefits. Players are the repeat business and lurkers tend to rotate. Both are important for revenue and let's face it, bills have to be paid. Some lurkers will go once and never come back. Some will become regular attendees.

When it comes to dollars and cents, there's another consideration and that is reputation. Fet is a bigger site, so I'm going to use that example. The TOU of Fet says you can not name a consent violator by screen name. The same does not apply to a venue. It is very, very bad for business to have people writing about consent violations that happen at your club. You almost can't get worse press than multiple consent violations.

The question arose about where was the DM? In off peak hours, in a 2400 square feet club, with an upstairs and downstairs, you really can't expect them to be everywhere at once. Not to brag, but I'm a pretty safe player, and I'm not the person who has to be watched when it comes to a wax scene. The staff knows that my fingers don't 'drift' during casual play, so they know they don't have to hover over me every minute. The staff was actually all for the way it was handled.


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/15/2016 5:45:18 AM   
MisterP61


Posts: 1345
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
Men KNOW they are not supposed to touch women's behinds if they don't know said woman.


Actually, three or four consecutive wrongs don't make a right.

I don't know the situation, but, there could have been as many as this many wrongs ...
POTENTIAL WRONG 1. The orientation either didn't exist, or sucked at explaining boundaries ...
POTENTIAL WRONG 2. The dungeon master didn't see the infraction or didn't enforce the boundaries ...
POTENTIAL WRONG 3. The scene players didn't themselves delineate any boundaries...
POTENTIAL WRONG 4. The perpetrator himself may have chosen to ignore all those boundaries...

Anyway, the real question in the OP was whether the curt response from the OP was warranted, and, my recommendation to that request would depend solely on whether the owner wants that person (or anyone like him - which is pretty much lots and lots and lots of paying customers) to be a paying customer in the future.

If "I" wanted a paying customer to return, yet, that paying customer either didn't know the rules (i.e., no orientation or lousy orientation, no boundary or lousy boundary settings, etc.) or he chose to flout the rules (I think I made it clear that this is a definite possibility that I do not overlook!), then it's more appropriate to be nicer in a first approbation than to not be nicer by a long shot.

From one NYer to another, how about you stop the bullshit. First off kink has not one fucking thing to do with this. Zero. Zip. Nada. It is illegal to touch any person in a sexual way without consent. Period. There is never a time where it is legal. It is at best sexual harassment, and at worst sexual assault (rape).

Any club that puts the "paying" customer (oh, by the way so is the person whom they were trying to violate) ahead of the risk of lawsuits and numerous other disadvantageous possibilities has a very shitty "corporate model" they are working with and will almost always fail and close their doors.

So Yes. To Me diplomacy was out the door the second he started to reach out to touch someone he had no permission to touch. The fact that he still has ten fingers is a testament to the restraint She showed. If I was with Her there, I would not have been part of the scene with Her bottom, but I am pretty sure I would have been part of the "scene" of ensuring the Richard Cranium's activity was very well known to the clubs proprietors.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/15/2016 7:22:05 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange

From the sub side of things, the response was perfectly appropriate. When submitting I am handing over my mind and body to the Domme. Part of that hand over is the trust no harm will come to me. Including violation of my subspace during the scene. If a Domme did not keep me protected, the trust would be gone and I would not be able to let go mentally anymore.

I do not do a lot of public play. When I do I make sure to have the talk on who can touch me or be part of the scene.


I'm with this all the way.

LadyPact's response was in no way excessive.

The setting, the existence of any boundary lines and the house rules are all besides the point. This is a simple matter of respect, consent and trust. Touching someone who hasn't consented because they are in a submissive role in public is unacceptable and potential an assault. A strong response to any potential interference from a third party is entirely appropriate and frankly should be expected.

The fact that there are men and women who think that they have a right to treat subs/bottoms in a high-handed manner, including touching them or getting involved in play without consent, is exactly the kind of thing that can make being submissive in public unpleasant. Rather than being concerned about the effect on the man who wanted to touch the bottom, the concern should entirely be for the bottom who has the right not to be molested. Protecting someone in a potentially vulnerable position is more than a virtue, it is a responsibility.

I am only submissive to those I consent to be submissive with. That can be more than one person but it doesn't extend to just anyone who calls themselves a Dom/me. Equally I will be respectful to everyone but wont bow and scrape (or offer my body) to someone just because of a label they give themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/15/2016 8:09:59 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Andalusite, first, looking lovely, as always.

Gotta agree with you on that!
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
they actually did use the word performance.

I assume the myriad and sundry lurkers pay the bills, so my assertion to follow depends on that as an assumption (owners of clubs can certainly tell me otherwise as I take correction well).

That makes the "regulars" the "talent". The regulars, who tend to have play partners and prepared scenes, are the "show". Otherwise, it's just a room full of people, which, I guess, is fine and dandy, but, they make bars for that purpose of meet and greet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
There are times you bring up interesting points of conversation.

And then ... there are times that I don't!
:)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I've been to the former Edges but it's been something like five or six years ago.

I liked the older place where they had that back elevated area, with the same Saint Andrew's Cross mounted just as it was in the new Edges, so, as a carryover, that was nice (in addition to the other equipment).

Alex and Allie were wonderful, and Alex always gave me good advice, especially as I had asked about the rules if the police show up - and he patiently explained that, in California, it's a crime, basically, to spank someone (and leave any kind of marks), so, we were to dress immediately and leave if the alarm sounded, for example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Sometimes, club owners will work with you

I remember Alex let me rent his play space for cheap. Something like $60 an hour, which, if you think about it, is a fantastic deal (I was doing a photo op at the time, with a friend).
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
None of the clubs that I've ever attended had roped off areas between players and onlookers.

Thinking harder about it, I think I had spoken too soon.
Clearly the local dungeons have mandatory orientations which cover such stuff.
But, as I think back, only the Power Exchange and the swingers clubs had "CLEARLY" delineated spaces. Most of the swinger's clubs were in residences, so doors were the delineation, while the ropes with the clip were downstairs in the Power Exchange. The power exchange also had prison cells, and little rooms all over the place, further delineating things.

So, I do agree, now that I think more deeply about it. I don't remember Edges having a painted line or anything like that. Citadel is kind'a far for me, but when I was there, it seemed more like a multi-bar dance club than anything else. Same with the bar that is Bondage-a-GoGo on Wednesdays, as I recall.

So, that makes it doubly hard for you, the a priori scene maker, to communicate/convey/enforce boundary conditions (which you shouldn't have to do as that is mostly the House's responsibility).
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I don't mind paying door fees.

I don't mind paying them either, as the bills gotta get paid - except that, for a single male, any payment is generally a waste of money and time and effort most of the time, so, unless I'm with a date (in which case, they're generally fun for her as she is usually a newbie), I don't bother anymore.

It's the young wolves who lavishly spend their money endlessly seeking out the sheep, as I once was.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I don't believe in making a presenter pay if they are giving a demo

Agreed. I think "regulars" who give "good show" should also be exempt, but I leave all that to the owners to decide. I think the South Bay Spot allows working volunteers in free, right?
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
and their demo bottom should get in free, too.

Bear in mind at most swingers clubs, and, I think, at the Power Exchange too, females (or those dressed as females) get in free, as, I think, do couples get a reduced rate. They only rape the single males, of which there are many.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Players are the repeat business and lurkers tend to rotate.

Can't disagree.
Players are what gives the club it's rep, while the various and sundry lurkers give 'em their cash.
Both are required for a successful business (even if they, technically, are 'clubs').
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Some lurkers will go once and never come back. Some will become regular attendees.

Yup. I think the lurkers rotate more so than become regulars, but, you'd know better than I since I only sporadically lurked myself, except for a while at the latest Edges (just when the City of San Jose was coming down hard on Alex for trumped-up "zoning violations", which eventually, I guess, closed him down.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
The question arose about where was the DM?

The DM is a volunteer, and the DM is busy, and they can't be everywhere, as you noted.
So, while it "is" first the responsibility of the house (during orientation) to set boundaries, and then second the responsibility of the DM to enforce boundaries, it was left thirdly to you, as the concentee, to set the boundaries (and fifth, to the common sense of the lurkee).

So, there were multiple levels, the first few of which failed.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
The staff was actually all for the way it was handled.

Makes sense. I was just bringing up the responsibilities point, and the fact that there are ways to chastise a customer such that he never returns, or, such that he returns a better behaved person, and which anyone uses depends on what they want as an outcome for the house (which, let's never forget, is a business, even if it's legally structured as a club).

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/15/2016 8:31:36 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterP61
From one NYer to another, how about you stop the bullshit.

As a New Yorker, then, you won't mind me telling you that you're full of shit.
While your "words" may make sense to you, calling an attempted touch a 'rape' is completely ignorant of you to say, think, or even imply.

Like you would expect. I'm being clear here. You are full of shit. It's not rape.
It's a lot of other things, but it's not rape, you idiot.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterP61
First off kink has not one fucking thing to do with this. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Now you're doubly an idiot, if you won't mind me saying so, like a New Yorker would.
Tell it to a jury of your peers.
"They" get to decide the law, and, they "do" take into account circumstantial evidence.
Sometimes they are told to explicitly follow the precise wording of the law; and sometimes they actually follow it.
Sometimes they don't.

A lot of the law has to do with how a "normal" person would behave (as defined elsewhere, since we're talking kink here, whether your feeble brain can recognize that or not).

Anyway, you're so full of shit that I realize the text I'm wasting to try to knock a modicum of sense into your puny brain is being wasted, as we speak.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterP61
It is illegal to touch any person in a sexual way without consent.

You're jumping way ahead of your own capabilities.

I don't think Lady Pact or the DM or the owner or any of the customers even thought ONCE during that engagement, to call the police.

However, I'll let LadyPact and the owner engage on that:
@LP: Did you feel that calling the police was warranted in that (rather common) situation?
@OWNER: Did you call the police? (Do you even have the equivalent of a "security force"? (Volunteer DMs don't count for that question.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterP61
The fact that he still has ten fingers is a testament to the restraint She showed.

That statement shows you're an idiot.
There were MANY failures BEFORE the guy got to the point he got to.
And, there were MANY ways to handle the situation.

For a guy who postulates that the offender should likely have been charged with a crime to then intimate just as vehemently that his fingers should also have been chopped off simply tells all of us how stupid your thinking processes are, however logical they "appear" to you (in the fucked-up world in your mind).

I, for one, won't even TRY to understand your fucked-up logic.
(Am I New Yorker enough for you yet, you creep?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterP61
If I was with Her there, I would not have been part of the scene with Her bottom, but I am pretty sure I would have been part of the "scene" of ensuring the Richard Cranium's activity was very well known to the clubs proprietors.


Ask the proprietor what he actually did, and we'll see what a reasonable person actually does when they're running a business that happens to include naked people and paying customers and fetish activities all wrapped up in one.

CAVEAT TO NON-New-Yorkers: Just as LP could have been, I certainly could have been more diplomatic to this self-avowed "fellow New Yorker" just now; however, I chose to match his tone, and demeanor, however humorous and disgusting his ideas turned out to be (he understands, and, if he really is a New Yorker, he can take it as well as he can dish it out - so don't feel too sorry for the moron).

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/15/2016 8:38:32 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
the existence of any boundary lines and the house rules are all besides the point.


I'm not going to disagree with all of your other points, and, I'm not going to disagree with this point that I quoted above, except to reiterate that a SERIES of FAILURES occurred BEFORE it ever got to LP's need for action.

That series of failures should NOT be overlooked, even as you commend LP for her quick and decisive actions.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/15/2016 8:49:58 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
a SERIES of FAILURES occurred BEFORE it ever got to LP's need for action.


I should correct that to "a SERIES of FAILURES [may have] occurred BEFORE it ever got to LP's need for corrective action".

To better determine whether a series of failures DID in fact occur, was the reason for my set of related questions.

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 40
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