So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 10:39:37 AM)

A little background info...

Yesterday, I went to a daytime play event. It's not huge because it is smack dab in the middle of the week but it's a great chance for people who don't do the normal Mon-Fri, nine to five deal. There's a great range of age and experience levels. It's in the off-hours, so people who are new can have more time to talk to staff and more experienced players. Usually, if I go, I tend to give myself more time between scenes to expect that kind of thing.

I had a couple of scenes lined up and one of them was going to be wax. The bottom who was playing with me is very new. We've clicked for some reason. She's very bright and has a good head on her shoulders. Just the right mix of bottom and sub. Someday, somebody is going to be very lucky to have her.

We're about 3/4's of the way in to what I envision this wax play is going to go. Everything is going beautifully. I do a lot of open flame play when it comes to candles, which draws attention. I also like lighting votive candles in a lot of my scenes, which tends to draw more attention.

Before I know it, this guy (who I had never seen before) takes about three steps forward toward the table, with his hand outstretched, and his fingertips just inches away from her ass. Diplomacy flew out the window.

"Don't you dare f^cking touch that girl."

I must have had the look on me that, if he advanced further, he'd draw back a bloody stump. I didn't yell, but he knew I meant it. He turned on his heel and left. It's my understanding that he was out the door like a shot. He may not ever come back. He may come back after he learns scene etiquette.

Could I have been more diplomatic? Yes. Then again, I got the result necessary.

Please feel free to take this experience and have a discussion. Bottoms, how would you have liked your top to handle the scenario? Tops, what would you have done?



theHouseofAvalon -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 10:55:26 AM)

quote:

Could I have been more diplomatic? Yes. Then again, I got the result necessary.



I've never seen a Domme diplomatic about anything related to their bottom or sub.
You had other options. You could have stabbed him. That would have gotten the same result, no touchy. Or, you could have motioned him back without disturbing the scene.



stef -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 10:59:17 AM)

I think you handled it just fine.

Some knucklehead thought it would be a good idea to grab my collar ring in a club one night. I doubt he appreciated the wrist lock or crashing to the floor in the middle of a crowd of onlookers while I told him that such behavior was unacceptable and he needed permission before touching people.



NookieNotes -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 11:30:06 AM)

I think it was perfectly done.



LadyConstanze -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 12:57:24 PM)

I second the perfectly done, it's so rude and inconsiderate, he's lucky that no DM removed him



theHouseofAvalon -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 1:07:41 PM)

I tend to simply motion the interloper away without the submissive even knowing of the event. I feel this represents true control of oneself, the scene and the situation. It represents strength.



theHouseofAvalon -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 1:10:40 PM)

...besides, a DM will not tolerate such an outburst disturbing another's scene when it is easily handled otherwise. If the DM is handy then motion for her or him to intercede.



Kinkymidlander -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 1:25:40 PM)

100% behind your reaction.

I'd be more than pleased to know that the person i'd placed my trust in had my back.

The guy sounds like a bit of a letch - boundaries should be respected in all walks of life, no?



CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 2:30:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


"Don't you dare f^cking touch that girl."




I prefer your way to mine. It was short, to the point, and might not have wrecked yours and your bottom's headspace as much as...being nice to the one interrupting and taking care of his widdle feelings by explaining things gently and politely.

The wrong way to handle this? What I did. I was half way into a flogging scene with my former partner when a female slave friend walked up, greeted us and started talking and wouldn't shut up. I was drunk on top space and my partner was flying in subspace and we were both dazed and incredulous as more time kept passing AND SHE WOULDN'T GO AWAY. She asked us to look at her body and praise her for her weight loss and she wanted hugs from both of us. Until the hug part came up, I kept flogging and if she got in the way of my swing she got hit and I didn't apologize for it.

I didn't think she'd be that rude and inconsiderate. We had known her for three years and had been to her home more times than I could count. She and her Master had broken up months before and she'd finally started going out to play parties again...and if I had responded to rudeness with rudeness, or explained to her the obvious, that she was interrupting a scene...all she'd have needed to do was start crying and the rest of the room would have gone after me with knives and pitchforks.

Am I too nice? I have to walk on eggshells in my area because:

1) Saying "No" to being vetted by handing over my driver's license to someone I barely knew and submitting to a background check (they've downgraded it now to some registry check) meant that I could no longer attend a non-play party group I'd been a regular member of for 3-4 years. It was rare when the group had more than 5-6 people showing up.

2) I'm banned from two groups (one group sprang from the other later on) because I posted a journal entry at Fet for a month, without naming names or the person's house, telling whoever decided that my remarks resembled their recent behavior...that my own personal business is none of theirs and to butt out.

I wish I had the freedom to set someone straight the way you did. It was short, educational AND necessary. In the meantime, I continue to walk on eggshells so I don't piss yet another person off and be banned from even farther away groups.



crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 3:47:04 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I also like lighting votive candles in a lot of my scenes, which tends to draw more attention.

The too-much-into-details part of me wants to know why a votive candle draws more attention than a regular candle?
quote:


A votive candle or prayer candle is a small candle, typically white or beeswax yellow, intended to be burnt as a votive offering in an act of Christian prayer, especially within the Anglican and Roman Catholic Christian denominations, among others.

[image]http://i.huffpost.com/gen/924485/thumbs/a-PAINTED-VOTIVE-CANDLE-HOLDERS-640x468.jpg[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
"Don't you dare f^cking touch that girl."

Out here, everyone who is in a dungeon has already taken the "orientation", which basically spells out the rules (is it the same there?).
one of those rules, always, is to maintain your space.

Generally there are delineation ropes or curtains or doors or whatever, to mark the do-not-cross line, so, you didn't explain whether that was the case or not.
Was the do-not-cross line clearly marked (still ... I just realized ... her ass is clearly a do-not-cross line - by about three to five feet as a minimum ... so. ... even if there wasn't a line, the line was already crossed).

From a guy who doesn't get social cues all that well, and, being a guy, I know that at many clubs (swingers clubs on a Friday are kind'a what I'm picturing, where they let men in, to pay the bills, instead of just couples and females), LURKING is, sadly, the norm.

The dilemma for a lurker is that if he remains timid, he gets absolutely nowhere.
Any guy who remains timid loses the hunt. No matter WHAT the hunt is.
Nothing comes to a guy. Absolutely nothing.

So, a guy's nature is to cross the line.
Heck, in the wild, if a sign says "do not enter", I always enter and take my chances (sometimes with consequences, most of time with none).

So, guys normally cross the line all the time (take speeding with a motorcycle, for example. Do gals do that? Not usually. Do guys do that? All of them, or almost all, as much as they can.)

Guys habitually cross the line.
Guys habitually get pummeled for doing so.
They cross the line again.
They get pummeled again.

The cross the line yet again and again and again (they wouldn't be guys if they didn't).
Eventually, the get something.

Anyway, I'm just explaining the guy (who obviously broke the house rules as you have stated the situation at least).
Now if he was ten feet away all this time, then it's different - but I assume - from your description, that he was less than a foot away from her ass - which is too close by any measure.

Anyway, the time the guy should have been told to get back was when he crossed the marked delineation rope or doorway or whatever.
Since this is way farther away than her ass, I must ask .....

QUESTION:
What was the dungeon-standard scene-delineation marker, and did he cross that first?

DAMNED undecipherable captcha challenges. If this shows up as a dup, it's because I had to paste it thrice so far, just to get it to post, and even then, it won't reply to LP directly.



OsideGirl -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 3:52:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
take speeding with a motorcycle, for example. Do gals do that? Not usually.




I do. All of my female friends that ride do. Hell, I have a few female friends that think the throttle is an "on/off" switch.



crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 3:56:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: theHouseofAvalon
You had other options. You could have stabbed him.


I don't know who pays the bills in dungeons, but, the bills are paid by single men in the swinger clubs, so you have to not stab the ones who actually pay the bills (due to their sheer numbers and their desire to pay to get what they otherwise can't get).

Of course, if you are clever enough to ad lib the stabbing into an ad-hoc D/s scene, then you GAIN further paying customers!

In the spirit of LP's question, it's all in the delicate balance of exactly HOW you stab him!



crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:03:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
All of my female friends that ride do. Hell, I have a few female friends that think the throttle is an "on/off" switch.


I get that. Mine is a K1200RS, which basically has the throttle set to on/off as you noted.
My point is that breaking the rules is normal for risk takers (such as almost all guys have to be, if they want to get anything in life).

And, to be punished (somehow, someway) for taking those risks is just as normal.
The guy left the house, presumably in embarrassment, which actually is a good thing.

It shows he has conscience.
He broke the rules, but, maybe he didn't break them in "his" mind until he was curtly apprised of that fact.

The lack of a marker (if that's the case) would indicate (in some dungeon rules) a lack of the desire on the part of the scenemaker to delineate the private space.
I dunno.

I have to assume there WAS a marker (I don't know if I've been in any dungeon that didn't have this rule, whether it be Edges or the South Bay Spot or, heaven forbid, the grossness of the Power Exchange up in San Francisco).

So, if there was a marker, then THAT is when the DM should have advised the interloper to stand back.
The DM would have done that gently (always remember who is paying the bills!) - at least the first time.

You can't expect the talent (which, in this case, was LP and her partner in crime) to have to enforce the house rules.
They might not enforce those house rules as delicately as someone who NEEDS those paying customers might, for example.

Hint hint hint....



theHouseofAvalon -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:03:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: theHouseofAvalon
You had other options. You could have stabbed him.


I don't know who pays the bills in dungeons, but, the bills are paid by single men in the swinger clubs, so you have to not stab the ones who actually pay the bills (due to their sheer numbers and their desire to pay to get what they otherwise can't get).

Of course, if you are clever enough to ad lib the stabbing into an ad-hoc D/s scene, then you GAIN further paying customers!

In the spirit of LP's question, it's all in the delicate balance of exactly HOW you stab him!


Actually there are few single men in the club. The reason is there is a filter mechanism in place that makes sure only members and those vouched for by member are allowed and the newby is closely watched by the Dungeon Master and minions. In our case, "candy girls". There are no ropes in my club to separate play areas. The line is there nonetheless. These clubs are not run like swinger clubs.



OsideGirl -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:08:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets



I have to assume there WAS a marker (I don't know if I've been in any dungeon that didn't have this rule, whether it be Edges or the South Bay Spot or, heaven forbid, the grossness of the Power Exchange up in San Francisco).


I've never been to one that does have the markers. It's expected that people be courteous enough to stay out of flogger or whip range range. Bottom line, it's on the man - this idea that it's okay to touch a complete stranger just violates common sense and common courtesy.



sunshinemiss -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:09:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
...
Before I know it, this guy (who I had never seen before) takes about three steps forward toward the table, with his hand outstretched, and his fingertips just inches away from her ass. Diplomacy flew out the window.

"Don't you dare f^cking touch that girl."

Could I have been more diplomatic? Yes. Then again, I got the result necessary.

Please feel free to take this experience and have a discussion. Bottoms, how would you have liked your top to handle the scenario? Tops, what would you have done?


Lady Pact,
Always a pleasure to read what you write. That you started this thread shows so much of who you are.

Could you have been more diplomatic? Sure. Most people at any time CAN be more diplomatic. To me the more interesting question is (I hate to say it) SHOULD you have been more diplomatic. I am going with a big fat no.

You were tasked with, for all intents and purposes, running a fairly risky, dangerous event (wax play with fire). That puts people at risk. Yes, your bottom was at risk on an emotional level as in not being touched by a stranger / person without permission (not no, but fuck off no). Yes, you were at risk if she had jumped up upon being touched. Yes, the people around you were at risk for flying hot wax in that case. And let's face it... FIRE is not something to mess around with lightly.

In light of these truths (see what I did there? ;) )Your response was appropriate to the situation in my mind.

Warmly,
sunshinemiss



Dvr22999874 -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:10:39 PM)

Good on yer Lady P !!....................NObody touches my slave or her collar, without my express permission, or they are likely to have trouble counting up to ten in the not too distant future



theHouseofAvalon -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:12:35 PM)

quote:

In the spirit of LP's question, it's all in the delicate balance of exactly HOW you stab him!


Of course, "stabbing" is not the suggested direction to take here. LP is experienced which is why she is reviewing this action on the forum rather than simply accepting her action as correct. In the end, one should never second guess or criticize someone who is clearly concerned about the bottom, rightly so. We can only suggest alternatives for the future. Take them or leave them. If I appear to be critical then I am not doing a good job in this thread.



crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:25:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: theHouseofAvalon
There are no ropes in my club to separate play areas. The line is there nonetheless. These clubs are not run like swinger clubs.


I wonder if that is truly the case that the delineation isn't almost exactly the same as it is in swingers clubs, figuratively speaking.

I've been to swingers clubs and to dungeons, although I never ran one, so, I presume you have vastly more experience than I do.
I've been to NYC clubs (I can't even name them anymore, but Plato's Retreat, Le Trapeze and a bunch of fetish-related clubs in the meat-packing district come to mind), and SF clubs (Citadel comes to mind, but a while ago, as in five or ten years), and most of the San Jose smallish clubs including the swingers clubs (the best being the "forum", I think it was called, on the line of San Jose and Gilroy, as I recall).

Anyway, what they ALL had in common, IMHO, is that men pay the bills, period.... and that single men pay the bills moreso than coupled men ... and that there was ALWAYS a way to mark the do-not-cross line (in a residence, which the San Jose swingers clubs tend to be, the marker is usually a closed door but in grosser places such as The Power Exchange up in SF, it's just a rope with a thumb clip on the end).

Anyway, I fully BELIEVE you that, while you don't use ropes or chains or curtains, there MUST be a house-rule on private play space during a scene.
Of course, PRACTICAL issues abound, such as the fact that the DMs are almost always volunteers who aren't necessarily everywhere at all times, but, my point was that the line that was crossed first was NOT the hand reaching for the ass - and my other point is that it's not LP's job (as the a priori scene master) to have to enforce the house rules.

I'll also point out, along the line of LP's question, that almost no house, who values their paying customers, will enforce the FIRST infraction as curtly as LP did.
I'll give LP the benefit of the doubt that the offender ALREADY violated a PREVIOUS line - and we'll generously assume the volunteer DM was nowhere in sight (which happens all the time).

So, I have multiple areas of confusion and concern with the stated transaction (as I understand it):
1. The house is supposed to train and indoctrinate both staff and customer in abiding by and enforcing the rule to keep the lurkers at their distance, yet,
2. The scenemaker is (often) supposed to ALSO make it clear also (in part, by setting the rope which, in this case, doesn't seem to exist - which makes #1 all the more important)
3. That neither of those two responsibilities took place or that they were ignored by the lurker seems to be the most obvious conclusion.

Having said that, I think the scene maker does NOT have the responsibility to be tactful (it's not LP's job to worry about one paying customer of the house).
In fact, everyone wants the scene maker to be busily engrossed in the scene itself, for safety and entertainment reasons alone, if not for a dozen other reasons.

So, it should never have gotten to the point that the scene maker (who is, after all, the "product" in this case which is worth paying money to the club for), should have to enforce the house rules.

I feel the (volunteer?) DM would have been more proactive and more tactful than teh scenemaker.
I don't fault the scene maker for taking emergency action.

But the house bears the key responsibility for keeping the (never forget, paying) customers at bay.



LadyPact -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/14/2016 4:29:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
The too-much-into-details part of me wants to know why a votive candle draws more attention than a regular candle?

I think it has to do with the flame being closer to the skin. The taller candles for dripping wax tend to be off to the side. They are lit and they are pretty, but lighting small ones up on the bottom illuminates the skin. People are drawn to that.

quote:

Out here, everyone who is in a dungeon has already taken the "orientation", which basically spells out the rules (is it the same there?).
one of those rules, always, is to maintain your space.

Orientations are great! They just *are*. Not every place has them. Sometimes, it's just a member of staff asking if the dungeon rules have been read. Mr/Ms newbie says, "yes, of course," and then signs a piece of paper. This is not the fault of staff. They are doing what they have been told to do.

quote:

Generally there are delineation ropes or curtains or doors or whatever, to mark the do-not-cross line, so, you didn't explain whether that was the case or not.

Think big, open, warehouse kind of structure.

quote:

Was the do-not-cross line clearly marked (still ... I just realized ... her ass is clearly a do-not-cross line - by about three to five feet as a minimum ... so. ... even if there wasn't a line, the line was already crossed).

Three to five feet is generous.

quote:

From a guy who doesn't get social cues all that well, and, being a guy, I know that at many clubs (swingers clubs on a Friday are kind'a what I'm picturing, where they let men in, to pay the bills, instead of just couples and females), LURKING is, sadly, the norm.

Lurking, I'm used to. However, you watch with your eyes. Not with your hands.

quote:

The dilemma for a lurker is that if he remains timid, he gets absolutely nowhere.
Any guy who remains timid loses the hunt. No matter WHAT the hunt is.
Nothing comes to a guy. Absolutely nothing.

Perhaps, but it's not AT&T, either. I can't jive with "reach out and touch someone".

quote:

So, a guy's nature is to cross the line.

This could be interesting.

quote:

Heck, in the wild, if a sign says "do not enter", I always enter and take my chances (sometimes with consequences, most of time with none).

Interesting. Would you consider what I said a consequence?

quote:

So, guys normally cross the line all the time (take speeding with a motorcycle, for example. Do gals do that? Not usually. Do guys do that? All of them, or almost all, as much as they can.)

I hope you realize you are supporting my case.

quote:

Guys habitually cross the line.
Guys habitually get pummeled for doing so.
They cross the line again.
They get pummeled again.

In this instance, just once. It was just a matter of seconds.

quote:

The cross the line yet again and again and again (they wouldn't be guys if they didn't).
Eventually, the get something.

Yeah, they get a color by Clairol, short red head that says "don't touch that girl".

quote:

Anyway, I'm just explaining the guy (who obviously broke the house rules as you have stated the situation at least).
Now if he was ten feet away all this time, then it's different - but I assume - from your description, that he was less than a foot away from her ass - which is too close by any measure.

If he was ten, or even a foot away, I wouldn't have started the thread.

quote:

Anyway, the time the guy should have been told to get back was when he crossed the marked delineation rope or doorway or whatever.
Since this is way farther away than her ass, I must ask .....

QUESTION:
What was the dungeon-standard scene-delineation marker, and did he cross that first?

DAMNED undecipherable captcha challenges. If this shows up as a dup, it's because I had to paste it thrice so far, just to get it to post, and even then, it won't reply to LP directly.

I'd be happy to send you the dungeon layout and rules by PM.



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