RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (Full Version)

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crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/15/2016 10:33:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Crumpets, what you don't get is during a scene people get into space, sub and top space, somebody interfering or touching can do massive damage, imagine it like hypnosis, meditation, whatever, you get into a headspace, then a stranger grabbing and interfering throws you out of it.


This makes total sense.

Please note that I never said what the guy did was right.
I just said there could easily be more wrongs than just one.

I also consistently said that it really should never have fallen upon LP to be an ad-hoc DM, of sorts, although she had little choice under the circumstances.

I also said that there are multiple ways that LP could have handled it, as she knows herself, all the while never chastising her for the specific way she did handle it.

None of this has anything to do, specifically, with "head space", so your additional points are well taken.



crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/15/2016 10:39:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
His stupidity doesn't make me vicious.


I should have used the sarcasm font!

It was mostly (although not entirely) an attempt at humor to call you "vicious" and remark that it was a tough crowd you hung out with.

I did receive a well-deserved chastisement for using the word "rape" to define that men are charged roughly ten times what the women are charged, so, I apologize for using such a strong word. I use it often with respect to taxes, for example, or "fees", but, some women, rightfully so, object to my coinage of the word which is usually reserved for more aggressively physical matters.

So I won't use the word again in this thread, and I apologize if I offended anyone by doing so prior.
(To whom it may concern, thank you for letting me know; I appreciate the courtesy email.)



crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/15/2016 11:08:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
"Captain Obvious" thing when I got to meet him and I said that line.

I remember, long ago, I authored a MB thread, and, as I recall, INTJ was the dominant phenotype here; however, what matters FAR MORE than the type is the strength.

You're likely a STRONG "J", while I'm definitely a STRONG "P".
I don't like the words "judgemental" nor "perceptive", but I didn't coin them.

Basically, a strong J is nothing whatsoever like a weak J so, just saying someone is a "J" is nearly meaningless (just as it would be to say someone is a "P", without identifying the strength). A weak J and a weak P are practically the same thing, in so much as the person is balanced between the two traits.

However, YOU are likely a VERY STRONG "J", while I am a very strong "P", so for us, that will never change (in one sense, we could distort the MB a bit into our fetish realm to suggest that one leads, the other follows, by the way, IMHO).

The "J" really refers to "order" more so than "judging".
Anyway, I could wax prolifically on the MB profiling, which I believe I have a handle on, but this isn't the place for such wax torture, now is it?
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Judgement isn't as negative as some people make it out to be.

Anyone who feels it's a negative doesn't understand the MB profile process.
It's more about two types of "order":
a. How you prefer to order YOUR life, and,
b. How you prefer *others* to comply with your preferred order.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I'm kind of used to people enjoying watching me play.

Someday, I hope to have the pleasure of doing so.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
you can still get so much from watching.

I learned how to do a lot of things by watching, so, I agree.
There's a lot to be learned by watching others.
It's also boring though, to "just" watch sometimes.
Such is life.
That's probably why I haven't been to a dungeon in a few years.
Too boring for my tastes.
I'd rather read a book lately, curled up by the fire (my moderate "E" is becoming less and less moderate, trending closer to an "I" as I age).
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Oh, wait... Big sign on the wall that says, "DON'T TOUCH THE DANCERS."

Good point on the strip clubs.
Certainly the nekkid ladies draw in the wolves in that venue.
No doubt about it.

BTW, the guys "can" touch the ladies all the time (certainly they do, and I know this first hand).
The trick is to TIP them appropriately, and, to keep out of the eye of the management.
It's all a game that is played, which the so-called "lap dance" has honed to absolute finesse.

Of course, the enforcement of the "rules" varies TREMENDOUSLY from place to place, so, bear in mind that I'm perfectly aware that in SOME CLUBS you really can't touch the merchandise, even though in other clubs, you just have to make sure you pay through the nose for the privilege of copping a feel.

PS: This silly classic game of wolves/sheep and, in the case of the management, the fox, just reminded me of the complexities of why I never go to strip clubs anymore also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I rely heavily on GPS these days.

Heh heh. I'm an EXPERT on GPS. I've been using GPS in cars since the days when we literally put a laptop in our lap, plugged into the cigarette lighter via an inverter, and we had huge serial port GPS domes (remember the serial port?) the size of road dots on the dashboard.

I had plenty of Garmins, from the StreetPilot III to the nüvi's, and a few years ago I wrote a comprehensive tutorial not only on the best freeware Android & iOS routing apps, but also recently updated it to include off-road capabilities (of which I use daily, since I hike nearly every day and never once do I try to follow an established trail). [That preference is due to the strong "P" in me, by the way as I get bored hiking back the same way I came or following an established trail.)

But, I digress....

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Gilroy. That's the place of smells of garlic, isn't it?

It's the stinkin' rose capital of the world!
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I was just talking to someone yesterday about a play space that I would have never expected to be in that particular town. I was surprise at the very idea.

It has been ten or twenty years since I researched this, but I used to know EVERY swing club in San Jose (which is the tenth largest city in the USA, and that doesn't even count a dozen cities around it, including puny, by comparison, San Francisco).

There were a LOT.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I can't comment about SBS.

I really should go to one of their orientations and check them out.
But, I expect to be bored to tears, unless I go with a friend.
I've pretty much seen it all by now, I guess.
Anyway, lurking is no fun for me.

But, I guess, there's always the chance of meeting someone...



crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/15/2016 11:27:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
As to the "sheep" and "wolves," none of the venues I've been to charge different prices for men vs. women, though some have discounts for couples or triads.


It's common practice to charge wolves much more than sheep at places like the Power Exchange.

For example, here are current prices:
Sundays - Thursdays (9PM-4AM)
  • Single in Male Attire $30
  • Couple $30
  • Single in Female Attire $5

    Friday - Saturday (9PM-5AM)
  • Single in Male Attire $50
  • Couple $40
  • Single in Female Attire $10

    Special Events (9PM-6AM)
  • Single in Male Attire $60
  • Couple $50
  • Single in Female Attire $10

    (Almost makes me wanna buy a size 40 dress & size 12 heels which will pay for itself in the first use!)
    [image]http://cdn.collarspace.com/attachments/011516/D8FB1969-4A0E-4936-8D98-173960E273E01.jpg[/image]
    It's similar at local swing clubs but I couldn't find a price list without registering on the official site for "Club Kiss".

    However, this third-party review says that solo women are $20 at Club Kiss, while couples are $60 (they don't let single men in, apparently).
    [image]http://cdn.collarspace.com/attachments/011516/598766C3-9B75-478C-B3C9-119C3C46B41B1.jpg[/image]

    Not sure what this "Pleasure Zone" in San Francisco is though ...

    PS: Mission Sex: Learning Etiquette at a Sex Club



    • LadyPact -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 12:56:17 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: crumpets
    I had to break up my response 'cuz the captcha thing times out if I take too long, and then it's sheer hell to get a post to stick...

    It worked out for the best. I had to be elsewhere for a while, so it turned out to be convenient.

    quote:

    It's so far away for me, compared to what Edges was and SBS is, that I have only been there a few times, so, I'll let the SF regulars comment on the structuring of the Citadel.

    That thing I said about a club's reputation? That was what I meant by it. A while back there was a female top/Dominant who actually admitted that she had done some consent violations and even after doing so, the club dragged it's feet about banning her. (Same person went on to present on negotiations at Sin in the City just weeks later.) To me, that's bad press. It makes me less likely to want to spend my money there.

    quote:

    Fair enough. As I said prior, it's not really your job to keep onlookers at bay.
    As someone noted, you 'can' (at your discretion) "allow" participation, which, as I noted in the swing club, certainly happens regularly, but, in general, at the dungeons, it doesn't happen all that often, at least not between strangers.

    I could *if* I had the bottom's consent prior. However, it would still be up to my discretion. Chances of that happening when I don't know somebody's skill and/or experience level are exceptionally slim.

    quote:

    Yep.
    Out in the wild, I have freedom that you will never have, simply because nobody gives a hoot about me. I joke that I could lounge about and eat free food in the lobby of almost any business hotel in the planet, and not a single person would even notice me, whereas there are almost no places you can go where you're not instantly and immediately noticed.

    Not always. I had that three year detour to Alaska, so I got a bit of a break from that.

    quote:

    Everything is almost completely different, when it comes to the sex-related experiences of men versus women, and, in general, we have the freedom to be wholly and completely ignored, and you have the luxury of being noticed (and given perks, like a vastly reduced rate on admission).

    As I was saying earlier, I only get discounted or comped for teaching. Any other time, I'm just like anybody else. Years ago, I used to get extra free passes at one particular club because I had done so many things there. I also can be good for business. I can be one of those types who starts organizing stuff that sounds like it's going to be an absolute blast and who's with me?

    quote:

    Yep. Don't think I never noticed.
    It was cheaper to bring a date than to go alone.
    By a LOT!

    Some men hung out outside the Power Exchange, as I recall, offering to pay single women $50 or some such amount, just to get a discount on the $70 rate (although it was, of course, against the rules).

    Um... yeah. It's extremely discriminatory.
    But men aren't gonna complain.
    If you charged women as much as men, they wouldn't bother showing up.
    No sheep. No wolves.
    Simple logic.

    Bars have been doing that for years. No cover/free drinks up to a certain time. What's the best way to get het men to go? Letting them know there will be women there.

    It isn't often that something that is *just* a BDSM event has a different price structure that is solely on gender.

    quote:

    Yup. A delicate balance it is.
    Not at all worth it, in my book, to go alone.
    So, I don't bother anymore.
    Which is probably why I haven't been to the SBS (although I have been planning to go for a while now, just as I plan to go to a munch, and to a LIP/s event, etc.).

    Oddly enough, I don't go as often now that it's ridiculously convenient. When there's only one munch/event a month, it's different than something almost every day of the week.

    quote:

    Yeah. Men get screwed and raped all the time.
    Think of bar promotions where it's often "Ladies Free", which means "Men pay thru the nose!".
    Still the same dynamic.
    No sheep. No wolves. No dollars.

    Now, it's the opposite at the dry cleaners, so, men aren't always the ones raped raw.

    I promise I pay more for undergarments and cosmetics.

    quote:

    Yeah, there must be a half dozen munches in the SF Bay area alone (Palo Alto, Southern Cross, San Jose, Lip/S, etc.).

    Not to mention the big events you have there. I honestly think everybody should do Folsom once just to see it. (Not a good recommendation for those who don't do crowds well.) There is nothing else quite like it.

    quote:

    Price is almost always the same.
    Sheep get in for free or nearly free; wolves get raped every time; they gladly allow that rapage, in the hopes of themselves getting their grubby paws on one of 'dem soft sheep. Until they get to be old and wizened as I am, and then they don't bother anymore and stay home reading a book by the fireplace instead.

    That's not the kind of price I meant.

    This little incident was a momentary blip. However, we do have some serious problems in our communities that we have to address. We can't ignore things like consent violations. Someone else said it elsewhere on the thread. A person who gets away with it is likely to do it again. That's a really bad idea.


    quote:

    Yup.

    All I was saying was that the rules should have been explained to him, and they should have been clear to him, and he shouldn't have violated them, and that if he never returns, I'm not so sure that's a good thing or not for the owner, but I don't think anyone is crying over one missing wallet, um, I mean wolf, simply because there is a line of them out the door waiting to get their grubby lil' paws on some soft supple sheep!

    This I don't buy so much. Sorry but if you signed the acknowledgement sheet of knowing the dungeon rules, it's on you if you didn't read them. It is not that they are not provided. When you sign that piece of paper saying you understand, that means you comprehend the rules before you see any naked people.



    crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 1:25:53 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    I could *if* I had the bottom's consent prior.
    However, it would still be up to my discretion.

    Yup. Doesn't happen all that much, in practice though.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    Any other time, I'm just like anybody else.

    I posted current rates, which show single men (dressed as men) at $30, couples essentially pay the same rate as single men, which mean women get in free, and single women pay $5.

    So, you're like anybody else, dressed up as a woman.
    [Scheming li'l me just devised the brainiac idea of dressing like a woman and then going nekked inside!]
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    Bars have been doing that for years.

    Yup. No sheep. No wolves. No money.
    Bad for business to charge women the same price as they charge men.
    Just is.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    Oddly enough, I don't go as often now that it's ridiculously convenient. When there's only one munch/event a month, it's different than something almost every day of the week.

    Maybe it's a similar dynamic with me? Dunno. I haven't been to a LIP/s event, for example, in more than six months.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    I promise I pay more for undergarments and cosmetics.

    Heh heh ... yup. My Costco boxers aren't all that expensive yanno, so, I'm sure 'y got me there!

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    everybody should do Folsom once just to see it.

    Nice parade of sorts. It is.
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    A person who gets away with it is likely to do it again.

    Yup. That's why I said there's a series of escalating consequences.
    It's normal with punishment dynamics.

    Just piss off a judge next time you contest your parking ticket, if you wanna see the dynamic in action.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLA7dQ-uxR0
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    Sorry but if you signed the acknowledgement sheet of knowing the dungeon rules, it's on you if you didn't read them. It is not that they are not provided. When you sign that piece of paper saying you understand, that means you comprehend the rules before you see any naked people.

    I don't think ANYONE can actually be ignorant of the keep-your-distance rules in any dungeon if an orientation was held prior.




    LadyPact -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 1:38:48 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Andalusite
    Aww, thanks LP! Sundin_photo (from Fetlife) was at the Sci-Fi themed playparty at the Citadel last week, and got some new shots of me! I kinda wish they'd had a Star Wars or other Science Fiction-themed backdrop, maybe a starscape, but it's always fun to get new pics of a cool outfit. I can sorta see considering BDSM public play to be a form of performance art, and when I was doing playpiercings, I did love being artsy with it. I still tend to think of "talent" as specifically paid professionals, though, rather than just people doing their scenes.

    I kind of like well structured photo ops. A lot of folks only get to wear certain outfits to clubs, cons, or other events. I still remember when a lot of folks would bust on people that took pics of them dressed that were obviously done in hotels rooms but sometimes, that was the only place to get the shot. I don't mind photography areas and armband preference. It gives people an opportunity that they may not have otherwise.

    I have to say a word about art. A lot of BDSM to me *is* art. Rope, needles, wax, etc, etc can be completely beautiful. I sincerely love those shots.

    quote:

    Absolutely! Venues may be happy to have the extra money from male "lurkers," but if they're would-be consent violators, the venue doesn't *want* them as a customer! It's not worth their admission fee to have to have the DM staff spend all their time watching them to make sure they don't get out of line instead of focusing on scenes, they make people (especially women) feel uncomfortable and unsafe and less willing to go to that event to play (which subsequently means less income from all of the well-behaved lurkers), etc. Many venues actually have banned lists. Heck, even vanilla dance club bouncers will happily turf out any guy who's grabbing gals' butts without permission.

    I'm not against clubs having a banned list at all. It's the only way for club staff to know there has been a prior problem. Volunteers may not always know everyone by reputation when there are hundreds of people coming through the door. You know who gets blamed when a consent violator returns? The club.

    quote:

    I just went to the DM training session at the Citadel last weekend, and they covered a similar situation as one of the scenarios. Ideally, the DM would have headed him off at the pass and kept him away from you, or failing that, you could have seen him and chased him off when he got within 2'-3' of you. Since he did succeed in getting so close, you were absolutely right to yell and make him back off. I hope he doesn't go back - even if he's learned some manners from the incident, guys like that tend to be creepy boundary pushers whenever they think they can get away with it. The whole BDSM scene is better off without him.

    There are several folks on the boards who have DM experience and/or class time, which is really good. The DM class I do (well, did - it's been a while since I taught it) has participation time on hypothetical situations. Things aren't always as clear cut as someone yelling "red" from across the room.

    I was at another club last weekend than the one mentioned in the original. I had two scenes and both of the bottoms ended up hitting a cathartic release. Stuff like that is a watch from a distance but keep your eye on it kind of thing. It helps if you know the top and know if they have the situation and the bottom under control.




    Greta75 -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 1:39:03 AM)

    crumpets, I don't know what you are talking about. The "DO NOT TOUCH ANYBODY WITHOUT PERMISSION" is a universal rule in every country in this world!

    It's common sense. The club shouldn't even have to tell the people who go in there, something so basic like, "Do not touch another human being UNLESS they ask you to", something that is a universal rule and normal etiquette of regular human interaction.

    I mean, if you see two lesbians kissing and groping each other in mac donalds or something, would you go grab one of their butt? Does macdonalds have to informed all their customers NO TOUCHING of their customers allowed?





    LadyPact -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 2:02:49 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: ilovestarbucks
    oh hey, thanks for asking me that question. i don't know if u r new to BDSM or not, but at play parties the Dominants are called, "Sir" or some other title, and Domme are called, "Ma'am" or some other title. well, u know, the one i go to is that way. she may be at a similar play party where titles are appropriate. i mean that's no excuse 4 anyone to barge in and take over a scene. scenes r to be respected. but in any case, titles are to be given too.

    Ummm... Yeah. Not trying to insult you here. I just want you to realize that's not how it goes everywhere. If you are going to a specific type of party where everybody who chooses any kind of top role is addressed with a semi-formal label, that's not a standard everywhere else. If you're expecting a fellow Dominant who is twice your age to address you as sir, I think you might end up being disappointed.

    Most people call me LP or Lady Pact. I have a few people that call me the "M" labels (either Ma'am or Mistress) but that's usually from the other side of the slash. Sometimes, I'll get "after you, Ma'am" if somebody is opening a door for me or other situations where a person is just being polite. That is their choosing. Not my expectation.




    LadyPact -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 3:22:27 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: crumpets
    Yup. Doesn't happen all that much, in practice though.

    Generally not. I've absolutely co-topped but I'm only cool with that when everybody knows the situation going in. Casual play situations, I am more comfortable with longer negotiations and everybody being clear. Probably even more so now because of the climate in our kink communities. Like it or not, because there are more consent violations being talked about, (I mean this in general and not location specific) tops have to take their precautions.

    quote:

    I posted current rates, which show single men (dressed as men) at $30, couples essentially pay the same rate as single men, which mean women get in free, and single women pay $5.

    Yeah, but you're kind of doing it specifically from swingers clubs and/or BDSM clubs that have swinger events. I don't want to confuse the issue of pricing structures.

    quote:

    So, you're like anybody else, dressed up as a woman.
    [Scheming li'l me just devised the brainiac idea of dressing like a woman and then going nekked inside!]

    I know you're saying this in jest but I'm still going to say that I'd rather you'd not. I'm old enough to remember the days not so long ago that pre-op trans* women had difficulty getting access to events in their female identities. I think if people did do that kind of thing, there's potential for the ground that's been gained to be lost. I'm more likely to say if you want to get a cheaper rate, get a female friend to go with you.

    quote:

    Yup. No sheep. No wolves. No money.
    Bad for business to charge women the same price as they charge men.
    Just is.

    I don't know. I really do prefer to meet people at public venues when getting to know them as a play partner. Packing and lugging the toys can be a chore but the positive is that it's not my house when I don't know them well.

    quote:

    Maybe it's a similar dynamic with me? Dunno. I haven't been to a LIP/s event, for example, in more than six months.

    There's definitely something about the convenience and the frequency factors. When you have more options, you get to be more choosy.

    quote:

    Heh heh ... yup. My Costco boxers aren't all that expensive yanno, so, I'm sure 'y got me there!

    Yeah, don't get me started. I know there are several women on this thread who pay through the nose for bras.

    quote:

    Nice parade of sorts. It is.

    I have admiration for the folks who organize it, clean up after it, and run booths during it. Not to mention the cos-play folks, drag kings and queens, and the other folks who go all out to dress. If you can wear all of that, in 110+ degree heat, outside on the pavement, my hat's off to you.

    quote:

    Yup. That's why I said there's a series of escalating consequences.
    It's normal with punishment dynamics.

    I see this as a prevention incident.

    quote:

    Just piss off a judge next time you contest your parking ticket, if you wanna see the dynamic in action.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLA7dQ-uxR0

    Thanks, I'll pass. There is something about me that I am more likely to be pulled over when I have kink toys in the car. Don't ask me why. It's some weird LP, bad luck, vortex kind of thing.

    quote:

    I don't think ANYONE can actually be ignorant of the keep-your-distance rules in any dungeon if an orientation was held prior.

    As someone else mentioned, it's not always ignorance. Clubs and groups that have orientations have their troubles, too. I'm not saying I've never broken a dungeon rule, so I'm not trying to give the impression that I'm perfect, either. Still, I've changed some things regarding public play, especially pick up play.

    It wasn't the distance that bothered me so much when the person was a few steps away. When people are watching things like wax, needles, and other types of things where impact implements aren't being thrown, people do stand closer. It allows people to observe the play that's happening. I guess I really am old because that expression of "you look with your eyes, not your hands" comes to mind.




    Greta75 -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 4:43:26 AM)

    quote:

    I posted current rates, which show single men (dressed as men) at $30, couples essentially pay the same rate as single men, which mean women get in free, and single women pay $5.

    This happens in clubs all over the world. Non bdsm ones too. The more women there is in the club, the more paying males are willing to flock to it. Men who are straight will hate to go into clubs where it's all men only. So they need to attract women in.



    DocStrange -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 6:05:03 AM)

    Attract the women, the men will follow. Bars and clubs have used this philosophy since before I was born. Before all the DUI laws in the states it was very common for bars and clubs to have no cover charge for the women and reduced drink prices for them also. But the men had to pay full price. If you wanted to meet the ladies, you opened your wallet. Once you did, let the flirting begin :)



    crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 6:43:53 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Greta75
    crumpets, I don't know what you are talking about. The "DO NOT TOUCH ANYBODY WITHOUT PERMISSION" is a universal rule

    Yeah, and no.
    First off, the yeah.

    Certainly EVERY venue has rules for how to maintain your space.
    And this is particularly so, for dungeons, which, after all, is what LP was talking about.

    (I'm the one, I think, who brought up swingers clubs, and someone else brought in strip clubs, both of which allow plenty of touching, although the strip clubs play immensely variant games with the touching-for-tips ruse of lap dances and table dances, where, trust me, in some venues, plenty of touching happens in the darkness of some clubs (which is what keeps the wolves coming in, in droves, so the fox plays a delicate role in "enforcement", depending on how hard "the man" leans down on the fox.)

    My point is that, in all venues, touching HAPPENS.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna say it has to be CONSENSUAL, and I'm never gonna disagree.

    But, a LOT of human-to-human interaction isn't spelled out A-B-C.
    Sometimes consensual touching happens through the delicate balance of subtle signals and cues during a time period taking place over a distance.
    (It's called "dating" when it takes place over weeks, months, and years - but it happens similarly over the time frame of a single dungeon party.)

    It seems that almost everyone here conveniently forgets (or everyone here is immensely naive, which I'm sure isn't the case, so I have to assume they're forgotten) that there are HUMAN INTERACTIONS going on.

    Let's take an obvious case.
    Let's assume a drop-dead gorgeous gal wanted a chance to enjoy a single flog of a scene player; would just might be able to to that?

    Yes, and no, right?
    But "Yes" is a distinct possibility, right?

    What if it was a gorgeous man?

    (I know gorgeous doesn't matter - but - most of you either are extremely naiv or you've forgotten that people are interacting here so I need to up the stakes to make your brain start working again to make your brains realize that people DO touch each other in these venues - and not ALL that touching entails signed consent forms, handshakes, and blood-brother poking of the fingers).

    Now back to our gorgeous babe, who just wants to flog a guy just once.
    Could she do it?
    Of course, of course (yes I know, I know), she'd do it (only) with consent.
    I know that.

    The point is that she could.
    And, I've been in clubs where people have fucked people they've met at the club over in the side areas.
    So don't tell me you can't.
    Even in a dungeon.

    You just have to APPROACH them FIRST!
    And, there are a zillions ways to approach (because we have complex interpersonal interactions).

    Now, if you haven't noticed, while the chance isn't zero, the chance of your average lurker being invited into a scene is probably worse than the chance of winning the lottery - but - the point is - that chance exists (and plenty of mathematically challenged people STILL play the lottery!).

    This guy, clearly, was trying to play the lottery by approaching the scenemakers the way he did, and, what I'm merely saying is that there are protocols and procedures in place to prevent that approach from being inappropriate.

    The fact that these protocols are in place is a testament to the fact that they are broken all the time (consensually, for example).

    So, the touching rule is sort of like having a rule against war.
    You can't say it's wrong, carte blanch.

    Sure, it SOUNDS great to say that (let's have a war to end all wars, while we're at it) - but - without enforcement - it doesn't exist.
    And, carrying this forward, there are things such as the Anschluss, which, at least if you believe one side, they were INVITED in by the scene makers.

    In fact, if we add the deceitful Sweden or the weak Thailand into this analogy, simply NOT stopping someone from transgressing allows them to transgress, and that's PERFECTLY NORMAL in diplomatic maneuvers, of which getting invited into a scene must entail.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Greta75
    It's common sense. The club shouldn't even have to tell the people who go in there, something so basic like, "Do not touch another human being UNLESS they ask you to", something that is a universal rule and normal etiquette of regular human interaction.

    Yeah, and something that is successfully "broken" all the time, although, as I mentioned, for a male lurker, the chances are far slimmer than for a female lurker, for example, that they'll be successful.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Greta75
    I mean, if you see two lesbians kissing and groping each other in mac donalds or something, would you go grab one of their butt?

    Remember what the swing club owner told me way back when: "It's a swing club, for heaven's sake; don't be shy".

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Greta75
    Does macdonalds have to informed all their customers NO TOUCHING of their customers allowed?

    What you're saying, put into a reasonable sense ('cuz two lesbians writhing on a table at McDonald's doesn't happen all that often), is that no two people should even INTERACT at McDonalds unless there is explicit (and perhaps written?) consent.

    My point is that people INTERACT, and not every interaction is successful, and not every interaction that is successful started off with a written and signed consent form.

    The lurker was taking his chances with an "interaction" and, nobody here (not even me) says it was appropriate.
    However, I'm trying to open your eyes into the fact that there were a bunch of things that failed BEFORE LP admonished him, and, I'm trying to say that, IN HIS MIND, there was (obviously to him) a chance (alghough you wouldn't see me even IN the club for the same reason you wouldn't see me on a line to buy a lottery ticket).

    But people play the lottery all the time, and some people actually win.
    That's all he was doing.

    Had he been a gorgeous babe, he'd actually have had a (slightly better) chance.
    The fact he was a male lurker, meant he had statistically near zero chance, in effect - but - wolves don't know math all that well.

    Anyway, when I try to get such an extremely simple concept into thick heads, I have to resort to words (more and more of them), but I should resort to silence, because for most people, seeing both sides of the equation is a long-lost cause.



    crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 6:54:53 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyPact
    longer negotiations and everybody being clear.


    You used a great word.
    NEGOTIATIONS.

    I was using "interaction", but negotiation is better.

    People "negotiate" their touch interactions.
    And not every negotiation entails a contract drawn up by lawyers and signed in blood.

    Some "negotiations" are visual cues, a flick of an eye, a wave of the hand, a nod of the head.

    Now, I'm gonna loop back to the poor decrepit lurker, because, even with the negotiating skills of the California Teacher's Union, he had zero chance of winning this lottery to that particular sub's backside.

    I know this. That's why "I" don't even go through the door of dungeons nowadays.
    Not worth the price of entry.

    But, there was a chance, just as there was a chance at winning the lottery for all those people lined up at the local 7-11, and he was playing the lottery (and, predictably, he lost).

    So, you and I know his chances were near zero, but he was playing the lottery anyway, and, some people win (not many, but some do).
    Some people DO get to touch the merchandise, even without signed-in-blood consent forms.

    It just doesn't happen all that often (as we know, but he didn't apparently bring his calculator).



    crumpets -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 6:57:15 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DocStrange
    Attract the women, the men will follow.


    Attract the women, the men money will follow.



    freedomdwarf1 -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 7:23:12 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: crumpets
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Greta75
    crumpets, I don't know what you are talking about. The "DO NOT TOUCH ANYBODY WITHOUT PERMISSION" is a universal rule

    Yeah, and no.

    Sorry Crumpets. There is no "No".
    It's a universal rule that nobody should break without express and explicit permission.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: crumpets
    First off, the yeah.

    Certainly EVERY venue has rules for how to maintain your space.
    And this is particularly so, for dungeons, which, after all, is what LP was talking about.

    (I'm the one, I think, who brought up swingers clubs, and someone else brought in strip clubs, both of which allow plenty of touching, although the strip clubs play immensely variant games with the touching-for-tips ruse of lap dances and table dances, where, trust me, in some venues, plenty of touching happens in the darkness of some clubs (which is what keeps the wolves coming in, in droves, so the fox plays a delicate role in "enforcement", depending on how hard "the man" leans down on the fox.)

    My point is that, in all venues, touching HAPPENS.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna say it has to be CONSENSUAL, and I'm never gonna disagree.

    But, a LOT of human-to-human interaction isn't spelled out A-B-C. <snip>

    Touching only happens if, and only IF, the rules allow it.
    If you touch where it's not allowed, you will immediately be escorted off the premises and probably banned.

    And yes, human interaction is spelled out A-B-C.
    But of course, you can't see that.
    For someone so intelligent, you miss the most obvious social cues that most people learn by the age of 5.



    Greta75 -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 7:56:30 AM)

    quote:

    It seems that almost everyone here conveniently forgets (or everyone here is immensely naive, which I'm sure isn't the case, so I have to assume they're forgotten) that there are HUMAN INTERACTIONS going on.

    This I feel is very dangerous thinking. Even at a swinger club, strip club or whatever. A decent human being will ask permission before touching.

    It would be disrespectful to a stripper to touch her without her permission too, just saying! And from what I understand, most strippers do not wish to be touched! She's just dancing for your entertainment. But not for you to feel her up.

    There is no acceptable situation where you touch someone without their permission. Even in orgies, swinging plays.

    I think everyone should get expressed permission, practice common etiquette and ask politely before doing so.

    I am just so happy I live in a country who will prosecute people who think they have the right to touch others without expressed permission. I can't imagine as a woman living in a world where men think they have the right to touch me, just because of how I dress or what's my kink or if my career is porn, stripper or similar vein. And they get away with it.

    And I say this as a woman from a woman's perspective but I would never touch a male stripper without politely asking his permission too, or any male anyway.



    freedomdwarf1 -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 8:03:51 AM)

    The trouble is, Crumpets is oblivious to social cues and societal etiquette.
    He can't grasp even the basic ones.
    That's why he don't 'geddit' like everyone else does.
    He really really just doesn't understand them. Utterly clueless.

    ETA: That quote isn't mine Greta.



    DocStrange -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 9:41:53 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: crumpets


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Greta75
    crumpets, I don't know what you are talking about. The "DO NOT TOUCH ANYBODY WITHOUT PERMISSION" is a universal rule

    Yeah, and no.
    First off, the yeah.


    No yeah and no about it. It is not okay to touch anyone without permission to do so period. You have pretty much seen everyone here tell you that. No matter where you are it is not okay. If you cannot see that is wrong, you have some serious issues.



    LadyPact -> RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic (1/16/2016 10:00:02 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: crumpets
    You used a great word.
    NEGOTIATIONS.

    I was using "interaction", but negotiation is better.

    People "negotiate" their touch interactions.
    And not every negotiation entails a contract drawn up by lawyers and signed in blood.

    Some "negotiations" are visual cues, a flick of an eye, a wave of the hand, a nod of the head.

    Now, I'm gonna loop back to the poor decrepit lurker, because, even with the negotiating skills of the California Teacher's Union, he had zero chance of winning this lottery to that particular sub's backside.

    I know this. That's why "I" don't even go through the door of dungeons nowadays.
    Not worth the price of entry.

    But, there was a chance, just as there was a chance at winning the lottery for all those people lined up at the local 7-11, and he was playing the lottery (and, predictably, he lost).

    So, you and I know his chances were near zero, but he was playing the lottery anyway, and, some people win (not many, but some do).
    Some people DO get to touch the merchandise, even without signed-in-blood consent forms.

    It just doesn't happen all that often (as we know, but he didn't apparently bring his calculator).

    Quoting this post but also going to include some of the things that were said to Greta.

    I do think the better term is negotiations, BUT it's important to keep in mind that my negotiations were with the bottom prior to play. NOT with every person who wandered over to watch part or all of the scene. Part of that negotiation before play started was a reminder (I had played with this gal before at a prior time) that there would be no sexual contact. (This is a standard with me when I'm doing casual play. It's something I say right up front because I think it's something that the bottom should know before we ever agree to play.)

    I kind of laughed at the term "hoping to win the lottery" because that's about the same odds. This is not a swinger situation where somebody has a shot at being invited in. (Keep in mind, all of the places you listed earlier in the thread also have a do not touch without invited rule.) It really wouldn't have mattered to me if the person approaching was a man or a woman because nobody else has permission to touch the girl. If the guy was hoping to win, he found out that he lost.

    What you are saying about a smile, nod, or a look when somebody is watching being negotiation doesn't really fly with me. Any top is going to be focused on the bottom but when something/someone comes into their field of vision, they are going to look to see what is there that wasn't before. Even though open flame wax play is a very mild form of fire play, the top still has to keep an eye on anything lit. Tables get bumped into, candles can tumble, non thinking folks pick things up, etc. You have to look if something changes in the area to keep your risk minimized.

    Let's go with dude gambled and he lost. Had the guy not left the premises, I'd have probably talked to him politely after everything had finished. (Aftercare and clean up.) Since I didn't have that opportunity, it was best for me to tell a member of the staff why he had left.




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