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RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 10:33:24 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
As to the "sheep" and "wolves," none of the venues I've been to charge different prices for men vs. women, though some have discounts for couples or triads.


It's common practice to charge wolves much more than sheep at places like the Power Exchange. It's similar at local swing clubs

I'm not interested in swing clubs, and I don't go to the Power Exchange *because* it's gross and guys are poorly behaved there, from what I've heard. Anyway, it's irrelevant, since I don't have the impression that the club the incident happened at has different pricing structure for men vs. women.
quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
A person who gets away with it is likely to do it again.

Yup. That's why I said there's a series of escalating consequences.
It's normal with punishment dynamics.

The kind of person who will do consent violations will sneak them in whenever possible. We don't want them to be in our community. Punishing them isn't effective, they'll just get sneakier. The only thing that helps is removing/banning them, as soon as they show that is the kind of person they are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Sorry but if you signed the acknowledgement sheet of knowing the dungeon rules, it's on you if you didn't read them. It is not that they are not provided. When you sign that piece of paper saying you understand, that means you comprehend the rules before you see any naked people.

I don't think ANYONE can actually be ignorant of the keep-your-distance rules in any dungeon if an orientation was held prior.

Nobody is ignorant of the rule not to touch other people without permission, or interfere with others' scenes, regardless of orientations. There may be more esoteric rules that apply to a specific dungeon that someone might unwittingly break if not specifically informed of them. There are *NO* places where sneaking up and trying to touch someone who isn't aware you are there is acceptable, here in the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

My point is that people INTERACT, and not every interaction is successful, and not every interaction that is successful started off with a written and signed consent form.

The lurker was taking his chances with an "interaction" and, nobody here (not even me) says it was appropriate.
However, I'm trying to open your eyes into the fact that there were a bunch of things that failed BEFORE LP admonished him, and, I'm trying to say that, IN HIS MIND, there was (obviously to him) a chance.

It takes two or more people to interact. Trying to sneak up on someone and touch them before they realise you are there isn't an *INTER*action, it's an action. ;) I agree that ideally, someone should have intervened before he got that close, and first of all, he shouldn't have done it in the first place. I don't know what chance you're referring to there - the chance that he'll be able to touch her before someone screams at him instead of after?

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 10:39:46 AM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

crumpets, I don't know what you are talking about. The "DO NOT TOUCH ANYBODY WITHOUT PERMISSION" is a universal rule in every country in this world!

It's common sense. The club shouldn't even have to tell the people who go in there, something so basic like, "Do not touch another human being UNLESS they ask you to", something that is a universal rule and normal etiquette of regular human interaction.

I mean, if you see two lesbians kissing and groping each other in mac donalds or something, would you go grab one of their butt? Does macdonalds have to informed all their customers NO TOUCHING of their customers allowed?




Greta, you are scaring me. You are being way too sensible these days. This is exactly true and the fact that this has to be explained to someone is the very reason rules become necessary in the first place.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 10:40:18 AM   
crumpets


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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
It's a universal rule that nobody should break without express and explicit permission.

Except that express permission could be as simple as a wave of the hand or a single nod of the head.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
For someone so intelligent, you miss the most obvious social cues that most people learn by the age of 5.


That I'm arguing a bigger picture is lost on you?

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 10:47:07 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

A lot of folks only get to wear certain outfits to clubs, cons, or other events. I still remember when a lot of folks would bust on people that took pics of them dressed that were obviously done in hotels rooms but sometimes, that was the only place to get the shot. I don't mind photography areas and armband preference. It gives people an opportunity that they may not have otherwise.

I have to say a word about art. A lot of BDSM to me *is* art. Rope, needles, wax, etc, etc can be completely beautiful. I sincerely love those shots.

I haven't seen anyone critcised for taking photos in a hotel room, but I have seen them teased about taking photos in a *messy* room! I agree that a pro photographer with proper lighting/equipment can make the pics even better, though digital cameras are improving a lot.

I agree with you that BDSM (and the marks from it) have their own artistry. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I'm not against clubs having a banned list at all. It's the only way for club staff to know there has been a prior problem. Volunteers may not always know everyone by reputation when there are hundreds of people coming through the door. You know who gets blamed when a consent violator returns? The club.

Yep, the clubs train the cashiers and keep those records to protect their customers, and to protect themselves. :)



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I was at another club last weekend than the one mentioned in the original. I had two scenes and both of the bottoms ended up hitting a cathartic release. Stuff like that is a watch from a distance but keep your eye on it kind of thing. It helps if you know the top and know if they have the situation and the bottom under control.

*nods* I haven't had a lot of really cathartic scenes like that, but they're amazing when they happen! If I think it's likely, I try to inform the DM ahead of time, but it's not always predictable. Singletails do seem to have that effect on me more than any other toy.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 10:51:19 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
It's a universal rule that nobody should break without express and explicit permission.

Except that express permission could be as simple as a wave of the hand or a single nod of the head.


Sure, people sometimes express consent non-verbally. When the person he was approaching was turned away from him and didn't see him coming (the bottom), she cannot consent. LadyPact certainly didn't consent, either.

It's generally considered rude to interfere with other people who are already interacting with each other. Even at a strip club, if someone is getting a lap dance, random other guys don't come up and grab her butt or boobs, right? If you're dancing with someone, unless it's a birthday jam or some such where they're explicitly planning to switch partners, you don't just cut in, or grab their butt, or whatever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
For someone so intelligent, you miss the most obvious social cues that most people learn by the age of 5.


That I'm arguing a bigger picture is lost on you?

I think it's lost on most of the people here, since the things you are arguing aren't relevant to what actually happened.

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 10:53:58 AM   
crumpets


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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Even at a swinger club, strip club or whatever. A decent human being will ask permission before touching.

Not really.
Sure, it's apropos.
It's polite.
It's definite.

But, let's take the case of dating in my college days.

And, let's take the case of a certain girlfriend, whom I dated for two years thereafter, but, let's just take the case of the first or second date, just so that I can get my point across.

If, on that first or second date, I literally "asked" permission to touch her ass, I'd get a no right off the bat.
I have absolutely no doubt of this - even though - I would have just as absolutely no doubt that she wanted to be in the sack with me.

I wasn't ever gonna get there by asking.
Not my rules.
(If they were my rules, I'd wear the question on a big placard hung across my chest and she'd wear the answer on hers.)
Nope.

You play by the rules of the pussy.
You have no other choice but to play the silly game if you want the hunt to be successful.

So, what do you do, if you can't just ask?
You overstep your bounds.
Time and time and time and time again, you overstep the bounds.
She stops you, of course, each time, but, you'll notice that each time you get an inch further.

Meanwhile, you're filling her up on excuse-making drinks and you're providing her gifts of food and dessert and friends and laughter and whatever else you have in your repertoire to not break down her resistance (it was never there in the first place), but to give her more and more of an excuse to be what she wants to be while still preserving her "good girl" image.

These are HER RULES you're playing by, by the way.
You're just trying to play the game the way SHE wants it played so that you get what you wanted from the get go.
(And, never forget what makes men men, because there's nothing that makes men more men than the pursuit of pussy!)

Let's fast forward a few hours (sometimes days, but usually by the 3rd date, you either bed the gal, or you give up for lack of success and move on to more lucrative prey).

Point is, that, during the course of the next few hours (or dates), continually if I try, I will get further and further each time, until the goal is reached.

Now, if you look back, there was NEVER explicit consent.
Yet, it was always there.

Women make absolutely no sense (we've been down this road, by the way), but, you have to play the game by the rules of the pussy in order to get said pussy.

Point is, if you actually ASK for permission, you'll NEVER get it.
You have to "ask" by means that are less obvious.

Why?
Because the women want it that way, that's why.

Don't ask me.
Ask them.

If you'd ask me, I'd structure the whole dating ritual differently.
But, the ridiculous act of ASKING for permission isn't gonna fly in the rules that the women have set up for us.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:00:47 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Even at a swinger club, strip club or whatever. A decent human being will ask permission before touching.

Not really.

Yes, really. The face that you can't understand this simple concept, and go to the effort to try and explain your way around it, is troubling.

quote:

Why?
Because the women want it that way, that's why.

Don't ask me.
Ask them.

And you wonder why people think you're a creeper. Good god.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:08:08 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Your college days are irrelevant.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - your complete lack of social cues and societal etiquette make you a dangerous person within society.
You are arguing a point THAT DOES NOT MATTER.
Your PoV is never relevant or acceptable within modern society.

You DON'T play by rules of the pussy - ever.
That is unacceptable these days.
If you ask and get a NO, that's the end of it.

quote:

So, what do you do, if you can't just ask?
You overstep your bounds.
Time and time and time and time again, you overstep the bounds.

Absolutely and TOTALLY unacceptable.

If you think it's fine, you'll end up in jail. Seriously.
You idea of acceptable behaviour might have been ok 20+ years ago BUT NOT NOW!!

Argue the toss all you like.
Your behaviour is despicable and loathsome.
You should be jailed just for thinking you should be able to behave this way.


_____________________________

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(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:16:16 AM   
crumpets


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From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
It is not okay to touch anyone without permission to do so period.


Tell me something, and be truthful.

When you were in college, on a date, did you actually ASK PERMISSION to touch?

(in reply to DocStrange)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:18:30 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I'm not a fan of the verbally ask for every single kiss/etc. method of consent, I think it gets in the way and isn't hot. Negotiating ahead of time for a scene is good, though. Just groping people without interacting with them at all is a huge no. Continuing to push after she's said no is completely unacceptable. :(

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:23:15 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
If, on that first or second date, I literally "asked" permission to touch her ass, I'd get a no right off the bat.
I have absolutely no doubt of this - even though - I would have just as absolutely no doubt that she wanted to be in the sack with me.
Aside from the fact that 'asking' is weak, there's a complete set of interactions inherent in such a request that the less intellectually gifted just aren't aware of.


Let's say you ask such a question. (Which, by the way, is stupid). She is patently aware that her response mediates the view that anyone in earshot would have of her. Perhaps it's just you, perhaps it's others as well. Regardless, her saying "yes" affects how she thinks about herself and how observers - including you - would think about her.

Remember, the question is not, "Do you want me to touch your ass?", it's "May I touch your ass?". And aside from being somewhat of a blunder from your standpoint (and thus less likely for her to want you to), it's loaded with all of these reputation risks should she say "Yes".

quote:


So, what do you do, if you can't just ask?
You overstep your bounds.
Time and time and time and time again, you overstep the bounds.
She stops you, of course, each time, but, you'll notice that each time you get an inch further.


Not quite. That can work, but it's crude. What you do is MOVE her bounds. And you achieve this through slow escalation. By making her comfortable with your touch (and believe me, if she likes you, she's wanting you to touch her and expecting you to), you gradually expand her comfort level with you and the level to which she'll want you to go.

quote:


Meanwhile, you're filling her up on excuse-making drinks and you're providing her gifts of food and dessert
No. That's weak. I never buy shit for a woman unless I'm already fucking her. I am not compensating a woman for her time - it's certainly no more precious than mine and I'm not setting a bad precedent by putting out 'provider' vibes.

quote:


and friends and laughter and whatever else you have in your repertoire to not break down her resistance (it was never there in the first place), but to give her more and more of an excuse to be what she wants to be while still preserving her "good girl" image.
In a lot of cases, it's not resistance but confidence in your strength and self-discipline. Men tend to possess the physical strength to break women in half, so her risk when sleeping with a guy is usually considerably greater than ours. (Plus there's the risk of pregnancy thing which is another biological imperative driving her behaviour).




quote:


Now, if you look back, there was NEVER explicit consent.
Yet, it was always there.
Women regard men who require explicit consent as weak. (Well, except for damaged feminists, but any man who's stupid enough to try sleeping with one of those demented creatures deserves everything he gets.)

Of course if a woman expresses a desire for you to back off or leave her alone, that's a choice you have to respect. But there's a clear difference between "back off, I want no part of you" and "back off and slow things down".

quote:


Women make absolutely no sense (we've been down this road, by the way), but, you have to play the game by the rules of the pussy in order to get said pussy.
Women make perfect sense once you understand their biological imperative and the risk/reward scenario which accompanies sex and relationships. It just requires you to drop your illusions about their noble nature.


quote:


But, the ridiculous act of ASKING for permission isn't gonna fly in the rules that the women have set up for us.
The only women who actually require that are ugly feminists who really don't get the option. In fact, it's ugly feminists who have no sexual power who attempt to police the sex lives of attractive women who actually do.


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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:25:49 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
It is not okay to touch anyone without permission to do so period.


Tell me something, and be truthful.

When you were in college, on a date, did you actually ASK PERMISSION to touch?

You don't have to physically ASK (well, most people don't have to).
There are many social cues and body language that will tell you whether it's Ok or not.
But your complete lack of them means you only have two options: A) just don't, or b) ask.

This is something you just completely fail to grasp.


_____________________________

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George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:26:42 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
I don't go to the Power Exchange *because* it's gross

It's worse than gross. I can't disagree.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
and guys are poorly behaved there, from what I've heard.

I went to the gay floor once. It had tents placed in the center of a big warehouse, with office-like cubicles filling up the rest of the space.

Every single damn second I was on that floor, I was being chased (hounded, actually) by lurkers.
I swung through just once, and got my butt (literally) outta' there, and have never gone back.

Gross just STARTS to describe the place.
Just wait 'till you get downstairs, to the far right from the stairs, in a pitch-black side room (more like a hallway, than a room) with the camouflage netting on the wall and something like that hanging from the ceiling, with couches along the wall that you can't even see who is on them.

That room/hallway is where the word GROSS takes on a whole new dimension!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
The kind of person who will do consent violations will sneak them in whenever possible.

Yeah, but.
Take the case of classic dating.
Assume the woman wants it, and assume so does the guy.

Also, assume the woman is in her twenties because, an older woman may make a lot more sense, as her need to seem like a "good girl" is less (I think - although I'll never understand women because they never say what they do nor do what they say - so - you have to infer everything from what they do and just forget what they say).

Given this twenty-something gal on a third date (just to fast forward a bit), do you REALLY think the twenty-something guy is gonna get anywhere if he DOESN'T repeatedly violate the (stated) boundaries (until she finally relents)?

Of course, the boundaries were NEVER there, but she puts them up, like "diplomatic protests", which have only symbolic meaning.

But, my point is that a hellova LOT of "touching" occurs under the (idiotic if you ask me) rules of the pussy, which is to say that without repeat incursions across the border, you don't get to pass GO and collect your two hundred dollar bonus.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:31:03 AM   
Awareness


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Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
No yeah and no about it. It is not okay to touch anyone without permission to do so period. You have pretty much seen everyone here tell you that. No matter where you are it is not okay. If you cannot see that is wrong, you have some serious issues.
Well aren't you a bunch of social ineptitude. You are 100% wrong. It is absolutely okay to touch people without permission to do so.

In my work life, women touch me and I touch them. These are not sexually intimate touches, they might be on the shoulder, the arm or the elbow. They're socially acceptable expressions which normal, rational, healthy people understand. I've had attractive married women touch me repeatedly in ways which convey their simultaneous liking and attraction for me, but desire to respect their marriage and their husband. It's usually completely unconscious.

Of course, now I live in America, I tend to pull it right back. Because you guys are absolutely bug fuck crazy and the nuttiness of feminism has turned many women into walking sexual harassment cases. It'd probably be the kiss of death in corporate America, although I suspect smaller organisations may not be as bad.

Also, if you date a woman and DON'T touch her, she doesn't see you as a sexual being. You've got a window of opportunity and if you fail to touch her during that window... you're pretty much gonna be a 'friend' for the rest of time. Asking her for permission is about as socially inept as you can get - and if she explicitly requires permission then you've got a feminist nutter on your hands and should pay your bill and leave RIGHT away.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:41:39 AM   
crumpets


Posts: 1614
Joined: 11/5/2014
From: South Bay (SF & Silicon Valley)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
You don't have to physically ASK (well, most people don't have to).
There are many social cues and body language that will tell you whether it's Ok or not.

You're a genius.
You got my point!

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But your complete lack of them means you only have two options: A) just don't, or b) ask.

Um.... I am EXPLAINING it to you and then you say I don't UNDERSTAND?
Huh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
This is something you just completely fail to grasp.


I think I grasp it pretty well because I've lived it.

0. I'm gonna assume men are men, and women are women for the purpose of this flow chart.
1. If you (the man) ask to touch, the answer (from the woman) will invariably be no.
2. I didn't make that rule ('cuz "my" rule would actually make logical sense).
3. You're following HER rules since she has the goods; so, what you have to do is repeatedly violate diplomatic space.
4. You have to put up with the invariably lessening diplomatic (i.e., symbolic) protests
5. You often have to put up with lots nd lots of these diplomatic protests (figure it takes at least three dates - fewer if you're really good with drugs and alcohol - more if you're Aspy like I am where she's gotta start getting impatient with you actually believing her diplomatic protests and she finally puts your hand on her chest - just because you were stupid enough to actually believer her the few hundred times you previously tried and failed)
6. Finally, you get to touch the goods.
7. Interestingly, once you get there, then it's pretty much clear sailing for the next few years with that woman.
8. I don't really understand this - but once you've broken the rules enough - you've "proved" to her (in her crazy weird-ass mind) that you're worthy enough to have her - and you no longer have to play this silly negotiation game ever again with her.
9. Until you break up, maybe years later (it happens) and then you start back at #1 above with the next girl (or you go gay, where the rules are totally different).

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:48:06 AM   
DocStrange


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
No yeah and no about it. It is not okay to touch anyone without permission to do so period. You have pretty much seen everyone here tell you that. No matter where you are it is not okay. If you cannot see that is wrong, you have some serious issues.
Well aren't you a bunch of social ineptitude. You are 100% wrong. It is absolutely okay to touch people without permission to do so.

In my work life, women touch me and I touch them. These are not sexually intimate touches, they might be on the shoulder, the arm or the elbow. They're socially acceptable expressions which normal, rational, healthy people understand. I've had attractive married women touch me repeatedly in ways which convey their simultaneous liking and attraction for me, but desire to respect their marriage and their husband. It's usually completely unconscious.

Of course, now I live in America, I tend to pull it right back. Because you guys are absolutely bug fuck crazy and the nuttiness of feminism has turned many women into walking sexual harassment cases. It'd probably be the kiss of death in corporate America, although I suspect smaller organisations may not be as bad.

Also, if you date a woman and DON'T touch her, she doesn't see you as a sexual being. You've got a window of opportunity and if you fail to touch her during that window... you're pretty much gonna be a 'friend' for the rest of time. Asking her for permission is about as socially inept as you can get - and if she explicitly requires permission then you've got a feminist nutter on your hands and should pay your bill and leave RIGHT away.

The context of the thread has to do with a complete stranger. Nice try trying to twist things around. Plain and simple it is not okay.

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(in reply to Awareness)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:49:31 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		0-9 are irrelevant.

You are still banging on as if you are living in the 20th century.

All of your last post is just proving your lack of social cues.
Explain all you like - it's not relevant these days.
You are about 20-30 years out of date, at least.
You are totally inept socially.

YOU need to ask because you can't read the cues.


_____________________________

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George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:50:40 AM   
lamale


Posts: 38
Joined: 3/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

You should be jailed just for thinking you should be able to behave this way.



An astounding statement.

And so ironic, considering your signature line.

Guess what I'm thinking about you right now...

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:51:41 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets


Given this twenty-something gal on a third date (just to fast forward a bit), do you REALLY think the twenty-something guy is gonna get anywhere if he DOESN'T repeatedly violate the (stated) boundaries (until she finally relents)?

Of course, the boundaries were NEVER there, but she puts them up, like "diplomatic protests", which have only symbolic meaning.

But, my point is that a hellova LOT of "touching" occurs under the (idiotic if you ask me) rules of the pussy, which is to say that without repeat incursions across the border, you don't get to pass GO and collect your two hundred dollar bonus.

I spent most of my 20's in a monogamous relationship with my submissive, starting when we were 20. However, back then and still now, if I express a boundary, I expect him to respect that. If a guy kept pushing, I dumped him and GTFO.

(in reply to crumpets)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: So, maybe I could have been more diplomatic - 1/16/2016 11:52:21 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange
The context of the thread has to do with a complete stranger. Nice try trying to twist things around. Plain and simple it is not okay.
Do you ask a woman's permission before shaking her hand?

Man, you must be a ton of fun at parties.


_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to DocStrange)
Profile   Post #: 120
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