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Its over - 1/26/2016 7:56:34 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		The Feds arrested Bundy, a few of his followers and one person was killed, but the occupation is pretty much broken.

Source


Now, since these 'protesters" have repeatedly made the faulty claim that the Feds had no jurisdiction due to the county government being the supreme law of the land, it stands to reason that some jack ass is going to claim "false arrest."

Far from being supporters of the Constitution, which sets the layers of government, these individuals are nothing more than extreme right wing nuts who, quite rightly, should have been hit with SWAT teams on day two of the bullshit.

Whether we as a people agree or disagree with what the government does, as long as the government acts within the limits of the Constitution, the most we have the right to do is protest in legal, sane and constructive ways. The armed take over of government buildings was considered subversive in the 60's and 70's when AIM did it, and that has not changed.

I am a firm supporter of the Constitution, and the amendments stating the limits of governmental control, but, unless the government exceeds its authority and suspends those rights, the citizens of this country have no right to take arms against the government.

If that were the case, I know about 70 thousand smokers in the town I live in that would have done so four years ago when smoking in bars, restaurants and even on outdoor patios of those establishments was made illegal.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Its over - 1/26/2016 10:44:11 PM   
sloguy02246


Posts: 534
Joined: 11/5/2011
Status: offline 		Thereby once again demonstrating that openly tweaking the government's nose will always bring a response.
Maybe not quickly, or in the manner you expect, but it will eventually happen.

"Though the mills of God grind slowly,
Yet they grind exceeding small;
Though with patience he stands waiting,
With exactness grinds he all."

- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Its over - 1/26/2016 10:49:44 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		It is very unfortunate that there was any loss of life and that does put this whole affair in a very bad light. But this was a case of serious govt. overreach even though legally the govt. did have the power. Govt. used it like a weapon rather than as simply a position of strength that could have ended this affair more peacefully.

The real problem I see here is the ever increasing overreach of govt. and even with the power of the courts, that govt. having essentially, a monopoly on violence, this still could have been handled better.

In fact, it is the very law that grants the executive a monopoly on the 'taking' of property seems to afford [it] the right to intimidate those that don't wish...to be 'taken.' In other words, there needs to be laws that assure greater due process when the govt. steps in to declare intentions to 'take' land, even though there is a purchase process.

I knew of intimate detail a situation in no. Va. where the govt. came in to take 1000's of acres of land for Dulles Airport. However, the owner was a Dr. and both parties spent a lot of time in court. The govt. got the land but the owner got a pretty good price but only as farm land that was a fraction of its potential use as residential/commercial land.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Its over - 1/26/2016 11:58:24 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		The government should have called in the 1st Armored Cavalry on day one. Surround their position with a hundred times the 'opposing force' strength. Then state they have one hour to fully and unconditionally surrender to the FBI. After that hour, the US Army uses artillery to turn the area into nothing but craters and rubble. These idiots fucked with the US Government and placed the good citizens at risk. They did not have a justifiable argument; if they did, it would have already been used in a court of law. No, these morons didn't understand the 1st amendment to well. The 'right to peacefully assemble' does not mean 'take a position with hostile intention of resistance if demands are not met'.

Yes, there was a lost of life and that is sad. However, if they didn't follow through with the string of bad decision making in the first place, most of them would be free men right now. What people forget is that land in question is owned by the people of the nation (all 310+ million). I was never consulted let alone asked if they could have the land. No, they just took things by threat of violence. What sort of people take things that other people have by threats of violence? Those 'honest and law abiding' US Citizens with guns? No, criminals and terrorists.

Stop trying to justify these moron's actions. They were not fighting the 'evil and bad government'. They were trying to circumvent establish laws through threats of violence if their demands were not met. The aggressor here is not the US Government. If anything the US Government gave these guys many chances to surrender peacefully without any blood shed. Now they are in a prison awaiting trial. In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 12:03:26 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

It is very unfortunate that there was any loss of life and that does put this whole affair in a very bad light. But this was a case of serious govt. overreach even though legally the govt. did have the power. Govt. used it like a weapon rather than as simply a position of strength that could have ended this affair more peacefully.

The real problem I see here is the ever increasing overreach of govt. and even with the power of the courts, that govt. having essentially, a monopoly on violence, this still could have been handled better.


Its funny how you and I can disagree on so many points but agree strongly on this point.

A government that rules by force rather than the consent of the governed is a tyranny.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 12:09:40 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The government should have called in the 1st Armored Cavalry on day one. Surround their position with a hundred times the 'opposing force' strength. Then state they have one hour to fully and unconditionally surrender to the FBI. After that hour, the US Army uses artillery to turn the area into nothing but craters and rubble. These idiots fucked with the US Government and placed the good citizens at risk. They did not have a justifiable argument; if they did, it would have already been used in a court of law. No, these morons didn't understand the 1st amendment to well. The 'right to peacefully assemble' does not mean 'take a position with hostile intention of resistance if demands are not met'.

Yes, there was a lost of life and that is sad. However, if they didn't follow through with the string of bad decision making in the first place, most of them would be free men right now. What people forget is that land in question is owned by the people of the nation (all 310+ million). I was never consulted let alone asked if they could have the land. No, they just took things by threat of violence. What sort of people take things that other people have by threats of violence? Those 'honest and law abiding' US Citizens with guns? No, criminals and terrorists.

Stop trying to justify these moron's actions. They were not fighting the 'evil and bad government'. They were trying to circumvent establish laws through threats of violence if their demands were not met. The aggressor here is not the US Government. If anything the US Government gave these guys many chances to surrender peacefully without any blood shed. Now they are in a prison awaiting trial. In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?



I have long ago concluded you are just a provocateur.

Losing your life is not a just punishment for a protest.
Losing $140,000 is not a just punishment for failure to write words on a cake.

Calling out the army and you would have thousands and tens of thousands of people quit. And we would get ever closer to tyranny.

The US works on the consent of the governed,ether. Which is why activist judges - in either direction are so fundamentally wrong. Tyranny from the bench prevents consensus being formed.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 6:59:34 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		I have followed the story vaguely.

You have no constitution - remnants and fanciful notions is/are all that remain - doesn't it give people the right to bear arms, tommy guns, Sherman tanks, and bazookas, and to rise up against its own government? Whilst I may be an expert in malarkey I am no expert in utter malarkey.

What people forget is that land in question is owned by the people of the nation (all 310+ million) - yes i read the following sentence. I can reword it with better more non deluded words and fanciful notions and wishful thinking)

It’s not technically the 310 millions land now is it, (blah blah whose ancestors seized that glorious nation hmm always makes me thinky that one, well at least when people spout that kinda drivel), as opposed to a people who occupied it many, many millennia versus the time-ratio of immigrants x 500 years.

Or I can word it no-one owns land it belongs to all people off planet urth. Not good enough, nor accurate I feel deep within my loins - the land belongs to mother earth and it will only tolerate us so long

What was the story in short accurate format?
Someone burned something down 120 acres for some reason
And got jailed for 5 years
And armed militia occupied the land with their bazookas and for some reason.
Cops went in for some reason and shot someone dead…why I have no idea.

That’s what I got out of it all.



(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 7:03:20 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The government should have called in the 1st Armored Cavalry on day one. Surround their position with a hundred times the 'opposing force' strength. Then state they have one hour to fully and unconditionally surrender to the FBI. After that hour, the US Army uses artillery to turn the area into nothing but craters and rubble. These idiots fucked with the US Government and placed the good citizens at risk. They did not have a justifiable argument; if they did, it would have already been used in a court of law. No, these morons didn't understand the 1st amendment to well. The 'right to peacefully assemble' does not mean 'take a position with hostile intention of resistance if demands are not met'.


Seriously?!? Bomb a wildlife refuge? Isn't that sorta opposite of what the Federal refuge is designed to be about?

What "good citizens" were at risk?

quote:

Yes, there was a lost of life and that is sad. However, if they didn't follow through with the string of bad decision making in the first place, most of them would be free men right now. What people forget is that land in question is owned by the people of the nation (all 310+ million). I was never consulted let alone asked if they could have the land. No, they just took things by threat of violence. What sort of people take things that other people have by threats of violence? Those 'honest and law abiding' US Citizens with guns? No, criminals and terrorists.
Stop trying to justify these moron's actions. They were not fighting the 'evil and bad government'. They were trying to circumvent establish laws through threats of violence if their demands were not met. The aggressor here is not the US Government. If anything the US Government gave these guys many chances to surrender peacefully without any blood shed. Now they are in a prison awaiting trial.


What's really funny is that most of the moderates and conservatives on this board disagreed with the actions of Ammon and the rest of that group. While many here agreed that the Federal government has overstepped it's bounds, the occupation was pretty much seen as the wrong way to go about petitioning government for redress of grievances.

quote:

In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?


The method used was likely the part that will stick in people's minds, but not the reasons for the occupation. Government would have been wrong to go in guns a-blazing, though. Sorry your maniacal blood lust won't be satiated.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 7:14:17 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


I have long ago concluded you are just a provocateur.

Losing your life is not a just punishment for a protest.
Losing $140,000 is not a just punishment for failure to write words on a cake.

Calling out the army and you would have thousands and tens of thousands of people quit. And we would get ever closer to tyranny.

The US works on the consent of the governed,ether. Which is why activist judges - in either direction are so fundamentally wrong. Tyranny from the bench prevents consensus being formed.



The armed occupation of a government building is not a protest, it is, at its basic nature, an armed defiance of the government. That was the argument used by the conservative (Republican Administration) powers that be when AIM members occupied the town and monument at Wounded Knee, as well as the occupation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs building in Washington, DC.

Now, why is those instances different from when a right wing extremist group does the same thing?

Simple, there is a Liberal Administration in the White House, and it is a right wing group doing it.

You cant use the same argument as justification for both using force to stop a liberal protest against civil rights violations and to support basically what is being argued as the same thing.

Which is to say the lack of proper treatment by the government in regards to citizens rights.


quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


We the people does not dictate right or left, conservative or liberal, it is an all encompassing statement.

So if it was wrong for Native Americans to take over a town and monument on TRIBAL LAND granted to the Ogalala Sioux people in what they called an "Armed Protest" it is also wrong (even more so) for a group of armed right wing jack asses who go further and deny the authority of the Federal Government to do so.

It was not a protest then, it is not a protest now. It was and is an armed defiance of the Authority of the US Government, which in and of itself, qualifies as sedition and subversion.

Furthermore, when one of the organizers of the Wounded Knee occupation is presently serving a life sentence for the murder of two FBI agents (where a man who admitted to shooting one of them was acquitted on the same evidence) and even the Federal Prosecutor made it clear in his closing arguments that "it cannot be proved that the man fired the fatal shots or even held the alleged murder weapon, it is true that two agents are dead and someone needs to pay for the crime."

I hear many on this issue yell "government over reach," and "unfair treatment" and other really wonderful catch phrases, but only applying it to these people who happen to support an extreme right wing view.

Right wing supporters of this are screaming about government mismanagement of PUBLIC land, but when it comes to Indian lands under government management where minerals have been mined leaving the land polluted and useless for anything else, leaving the water table polluted from uranium mining so that it is unsafe to drink, rivers and streams polluted so that it is unsafe to use for anything more than an open sewer, they are quiet, or even support the government in what it allowed.

The argument cannot be used to support one group without it being applied to another.

There is one difference however, the Native Americans were the subject of a systematic and wide spread attempt by the government to either exterminate or destroy the cultures in programs that continued well into the late 20th century.

In other words, they were not then, nor now, white European right wing supporters.

The other difference is that the Indians at least agreed that the government was the legal authority and needed to change its practices. They did not state they supported the constitution while claiming the Federal Government has no authority over public lands and the use of those lands.

My personal opinion, is that these individuals should be charged with armed sedition and put in prison, as dictated by the Constitution, and under the Sedition act of 1918 and previous laws passed by the the US government as well as the Alien and Sedition act of 1798, passed by the Federalists that these groups are so quick to quote.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 7:14:37 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		What they should have done to these rightist nutsucker terrorists is stuffed red hot peppers up their ass and set them aflame.

I guess this answers the question if citzens of the US (police, soldiers) will kill or fight against rightist nutsucker terrorists who are also citizens.

Good Job!!!!

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 7:55:18 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The government should have called in the 1st Armored Cavalry on day one. Surround their position with a hundred times the 'opposing force' strength. Then state they have one hour to fully and unconditionally surrender to the FBI. After that hour, the US Army uses artillery to turn the area into nothing but craters and rubble. These idiots fucked with the US Government and placed the good citizens at risk. They did not have a justifiable argument; if they did, it would have already been used in a court of law. No, these morons didn't understand the 1st amendment to well. The 'right to peacefully assemble' does not mean 'take a position with hostile intention of resistance if demands are not met'.

Yes, there was a lost of life and that is sad. However, if they didn't follow through with the string of bad decision making in the first place, most of them would be free men right now. What people forget is that land in question is owned by the people of the nation (all 310+ million). I was never consulted let alone asked if they could have the land. No, they just took things by threat of violence. What sort of people take things that other people have by threats of violence? Those 'honest and law abiding' US Citizens with guns? No, criminals and terrorists.

Stop trying to justify these moron's actions. They were not fighting the 'evil and bad government'. They were trying to circumvent establish laws through threats of violence if their demands were not met. The aggressor here is not the US Government. If anything the US Government gave these guys many chances to surrender peacefully without any blood shed. Now they are in a prison awaiting trial. In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?

I have long ago concluded you are just a provocateur.


Then you, with your three college degrees have yet to fully understand me. You post threads to provoke 'the other side'. You attack those whom used facts when you have none. You insult other people when they have the truth and fact on their side. No sir, you are the one whom is a provocateur. Yes, liberals, being free people, often make trouble for tyrannies that you so often support. Maybe the trouble is not myself or others, but you and conservatives in the nation.

Now if your education had been a liberal one, you might have known that ahead of time (and thus, why your post contains logical errors).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Losing your life is not a just punishment for a protest.


Then you really do not understand the struggles mankind has endured over its entire existence. People protested against Stalin and Hitler; What happen to them? People protested against the King of England in Boston; what happened to them? People protested against Wall Street; what happen to them? People protested against the Vietnam War; what happened to them?

One man in China stood before a tank years ago. Stating the argument of good government can take many forms; as long as it works to promote the people around it; rather than a small cabal of individuals.

No one likes to lose their life over a protest. It happens. Its tragic. That people could not be good people, due to fear, hatred, or ignorance. Three traits that define the typical conservative in America today! But taking up arms against the nation over an argument that could not be won on its merits is not a good enough justification. The Occupy Wall Street movement took over an area without any arms; they had plenty of good arguments that were worth a healthy discussion. The morons in Oregon used force of arms to push their viewpoints down other people's throats; they did not care what other people's views on the subject might be!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Losing $140,000 is not a just punishment for failure to write words on a cake.


We had this discussion in the past. You still have not seem to learn from problem. They were a bakery open to the public. That means all their products and services are for use by the public. The only way to deny service to a paying customer is if that customer presents a justifiable/provable danger to the store and people within/near it. For decades before that point, there have been many bakers whom were not Christian and may have been GLBT; did any of them complain openly about making a wedding cake to a heterosexual couple; or even deny service? So why should we allow a christian couple to do the opposite?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Calling out the army and you would have thousands and tens of thousands of people quit. And we would get ever closer to tyranny.


Then we would know whom was truly loyal to the United States of America. Conservatives like to think that the people of the US Military would automatically side with them during any sort of political crisis is either naive or ignorant. What they keep forgetting: those soldiers signed a contract with the US Government. Revoking the contract outside of agreed upon terms does several things to them (i.e. former enlisted/officer): 1 ) They are dishonorably discharged, 2 ) Will find getting work VERY hard for the rest of their lives, 3 ) American soldiers and sailors will look down on them, 4 ) They will always have an aura of distrust about their character.

These soldiers and sailors take an oath to protect this nation from all threats, foreign and domestic. They have rules for how and when they can enter into a political discussion on any given topic. They depend on us, the civilians to handle problems like civilized adults in a mature manner. How do we handle a problem to which the opposition will use arms to push its ideology and threats of violence if we do not cave into their demands?

Since recently those morons in Oregon issued their demands. It read like a terrorist demands rather than 'Honest and Law Abiding' firearm owners make political statements. Yes, the US Government did not call in the military. They contained the threat. Then started building a legal case against each member for a future court battle. One in which each individual that took part would have plenty of arguments against their good nature; thus, spending many decades in federal prison.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
The US works on the consent of the governed,ether. Which is why activist judges - in either direction are so fundamentally wrong. Tyranny from the bench prevents consensus being formed.


No, good government works when good people are at the controls. Bad government happens when we have bad people at the controls. Need an example? President Obama is a good person, since he is keeping alive the idea that the United States of America is a good nation, with good people, whom strive to make a better tomorrow. Bad people? The whole of the Republican/Tea Party. How much has that GOP/TP accomplished in Congress in the last year? How many failed attempts to defund the Affordable Care Act have they managed? They are now giving us two 'examples' of what....NOT....to vote into the White House for 2016.

Yes, there is tyranny from the bench right now; put in place by Republican administrations. You know, the political organization that created the massive deficit in 2000 that would turn a small debt into the huge monster we have today? The organization that created DOMA and the Patriot Act. The ones whom removed $100 Billion in security measures from US Embassies worldwide; what happened just a year later? Benghazi?

Your political ideology and party have many major problems and thousands of smaller ones. Neither you nor they know how to handle things from the economy to science. That you can not objectively look at your own political viewpoints, nor those of the party you support and come to the conclusion to how liberals and moderates see you: America's Biggest Problem! Before you bitch about 'tyranny this' and 'tyranny that'; make sure your not the tyranny first!

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RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 8:11:58 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		They should have at least denied access and turned off all utilities.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 8:19:36 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Seriously?!? Bomb a wildlife refuge? Isn't that sorta opposite of what the Federal refuge is designed to be about?


Not the wildlife refuge; the buildings near to it. Nor is it bombing, its shelling. The federal refuge is designed to be for all Americans to enjoy. Yet in this instance, the terrorist group was demanding the land be turned over to them; and were threatening violence....

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What "good citizens" were at risk?


....which leads us right into this next question of yours. Convenient of you, eh?

What happens when people become so enraged at someone else, while they have a gun? The gun is often used on that person. Happens every day in our nation if your looking for evidence. The people in the local area stated they were scared and even terrified of the 'non-regulated' militia operating in their 'backyards'. Further, you forget that FBI agents....ARE....US Citizens. They are the good guys in this instance. So if the 'militia' had fired/attacked the FBI agents; good citizens would have been at risk of injury and death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What's really funny is that most of the moderates and conservatives on this board disagreed with the actions of Ammon and the rest of that group. While many here agreed that the Federal government has overstepped it's bounds, the occupation was pretty much seen as the wrong way to go about petitioning government for redress of grievances.


Unfortunately the liberals and moderates on this board disagree with that viewpoint. A lost of trust created by conservatives distrusting their fellow Americans for at least two decades. Do you....REALLY...disagree? Or do you just....politically....disagree? The first implies you really do disagree with Mr. Ammon on ever part of his actions. To 'politically disagree' means to state things publicly while secretly agreeing with Mr. Ammon's actions.

America has a distrust problem. Its infected the nation at all levels and systems. It comes from the conservative ideology. They accused liberals of disagreeing with President Obama on things all the while secretly agreeing with the man at certain moments (i.e. how we dealt with Libya).

When there is genuine trust, stating "Hey, this guy is a punk, an asshole, and an asshat. I disagree with his actions and words" can be taken at face value. The problem is that distrust has corrupted everything it has touched. Makes it hard from liberals and moderates to take conservatives seriously.

Now, I take you seriously here in stating your words. I trust you to be a fair person whom I disagree with at times. But for mainstream conservatives; they are not likely to be taken seriously.

How do we restore trust in fellow Americans across each of the political viewpoints going forward? Very hard answer to state!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?


The method used was likely the part that will stick in people's minds, but not the reasons for the occupation. Government would have been wrong to go in guns a-blazing, though. Sorry your maniacal blood lust won't be satiated.


True, 'guns ablazing' was my first reaction to the occupation. Later, upon thought, it was 'contain them; then give them rope to hang themselves'. The worrisome part will be from copy cats in the future; whom maybe even more embolden in their efforts. The Government will only stay peaceful and patient only so long. Sooner or later, they'll have to deal with this mentality in extremely conservative individuals/organizations with direct and harsh force. It will be ugly. One person dies here. Next time, four more. How many people have to die before we as a nation deal with the extremist views? Because Mr. Ammon's views are extreme.

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chattelmansub


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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 8:22:01 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		The military may have signed a contract with the US Government (or State government) but there is nothing about illegally shooting their fellow citizens in it.

The fact that you think military personal would be hunky-dory with following such an illegal order, says a lot about you that is not very nice.

The idea that you think combatants should be treated better than your fellow citizens also says a lot of not very nice things about you.

Military personal are NOT automatons. And they are certainly NOT a Praetorian Guard, you twit!

< Message edited by Aylee -- 1/27/2016 8:25:01 AM >

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 8:45:43 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Seriously?!? Bomb a wildlife refuge? Isn't that sorta opposite of what the Federal refuge is designed to be about?

Not the wildlife refuge; the buildings near to it. Nor is it bombing, its shelling. The federal refuge is designed to be for all Americans to enjoy. Yet in this instance, the terrorist group was demanding the land be turned over to them; and were threatening violence....


Oh, sorry.... shelling a wildlife refuge (where the buildings are located)?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What "good citizens" were at risk?

....which leads us right into this next question of yours. Convenient of you, eh?
What happens when people become so enraged at someone else, while they have a gun? The gun is often used on that person. Happens every day in our nation if your looking for evidence. The people in the local area stated they were scared and even terrified of the 'non-regulated' militia operating in their 'backyards'. Further, you forget that FBI agents....ARE....US Citizens. They are the good guys in this instance. So if the 'militia' had fired/attacked the FBI agents; good citizens would have been at risk of injury and death.


Please cite where "good citizens" were at risk. The schools re-opened once it was determined there wasn't any real danger from the group. Until the firefight, risks were only intimated at.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What's really funny is that most of the moderates and conservatives on this board disagreed with the actions of Ammon and the rest of that group. While many here agreed that the Federal government has overstepped it's bounds, the occupation was pretty much seen as the wrong way to go about petitioning government for redress of grievances.

Unfortunately the liberals and moderates on this board disagree with that viewpoint. A lost of trust created by conservatives distrusting their fellow Americans for at least two decades. Do you....REALLY...disagree? Or do you just....politically....disagree? The first implies you really do disagree with Mr. Ammon on ever part of his actions. To 'politically disagree' means to state things publicly while secretly agreeing with Mr. Ammon's actions.


Let's see... I agree that the Federal Government has, is, and will continue to overstep it's Constitutional bounds. In Ammon's situation, it sure looks like the Federal Government was abusive in the Hammond case (one of the two reasons behind the occupation). The other reason was for the Federal Government to relinquish control of those lands back to "The People." I admit I don't know much about that part of the issue, nor do I truly care to learn more about it. I support Ammon's right to petition government for redress of grievances. I do not support them illegally taking over a refuge HQ and threatening to fire on "the law" if it tries to oust them.

quote:

America has a distrust problem. Its infected the nation at all levels and systems. It comes from the conservative ideology. They accused liberals of disagreeing with President Obama on things all the while secretly agreeing with the man at certain moments (i.e. how we dealt with Libya).


Oh, please. Conservative ideology is not the architect of distrust of the US Government. An egotistical cannibal couldn't be more full of himself than you, Joether.

quote:

When there is genuine trust, stating "Hey, this guy is a punk, an asshole, and an asshat. I disagree with his actions and words" can be taken at face value. The problem is that distrust has corrupted everything it has touched. Makes it hard from liberals and moderates to take conservatives seriously.
Now, I take you seriously here in stating your words. I trust you to be a fair person whom I disagree with at times. But for mainstream conservatives; they are not likely to be taken seriously.
How do we restore trust in fellow Americans across each of the political viewpoints going forward? Very hard answer to state!


How about starting with not blaming everything on the GOP?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?

The method used was likely the part that will stick in people's minds, but not the reasons for the occupation. Government would have been wrong to go in guns a-blazing, though. Sorry your maniacal blood lust won't be satiated.

True, 'guns ablazing' was my first reaction to the occupation. Later, upon thought, it was 'contain them; then give them rope to hang themselves'. The worrisome part will be from copy cats in the future; whom maybe even more embolden in their efforts. The Government will only stay peaceful and patient only so long. Sooner or later, they'll have to deal with this mentality in extremely conservative individuals/organizations with direct and harsh force. It will be ugly. One person dies here. Next time, four more. How many people have to die before we as a nation deal with the extremist views? Because Mr. Ammon's views are extreme.

How many more people have to die? However many necessary. Some of Ammon's viewpoints may be "extreme," but there are plenty of other viewpoints that are extreme, too. Your viewpoint that the GOP/TP is the source of nearly every ill in this country is extreme. What are the rules about preventing people from having extreme viewpoints?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 9:53:18 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

It is very unfortunate that there was any loss of life and that does put this whole affair in a very bad light. But this was a case of serious govt. overreach even though legally the govt. did have the power. Govt. used it like a weapon rather than as simply a position of strength that could have ended this affair more peacefully.

The real problem I see here is the ever increasing overreach of govt. and even with the power of the courts, that govt. having essentially, a monopoly on violence, this still could have been handled better.


Its funny how you and I can disagree on so many points but agree strongly on this point.

A government that rules by force rather than the consent of the governed is a tyranny.

Well I read the history of this 'land grab' which it was, in a way. Seems there is little recourse in any democratic way except an often very lengthy court battle to even try to protect one's right to their land.

As it was, the Dr. in that no. Va, case, spent 100'$ of 1000'$ in court to get a few more bucks per acre but everyone including him, knew he was going to 'lose.' It was estimated and conservatively, that as time went by with rezoning, he could have made 10X what the govt. paid him.

But I did actually work 4 different jobs at the airport when I was real young'n. I'd be embarrased to tell you how little I made.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 10:08:10 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I have followed the story vaguely.

You have no constitution - remnants and fanciful notions is/are all that remain - doesn't it give people the right to bear arms, tommy guns, Sherman tanks, and bazookas, and to rise up against its own government? Whilst I may be an expert in malarkey I am no expert in utter malarkey.

What people forget is that land in question is owned by the people of the nation (all 310+ million) - yes i read the following sentence. I can reword it with better more non deluded words and fanciful notions and wishful thinking)

It’s not technically the 310 millions land now is it, (blah blah whose ancestors seized that glorious nation hmm always makes me thinky that one, well at least when people spout that kinda drivel), as opposed to a people who occupied it many, many millennia versus the time-ratio of immigrants x 500 years.

Or I can word it no-one owns land it belongs to all people off planet urth. Not good enough, nor accurate I feel deep within my loins - the land belongs to mother earth and it will only tolerate us so long

What was the story in short accurate format?
Someone burned something down 120 acres for some reason
And got jailed for 5 years
And armed militia occupied the land with their bazookas and for some reason.
Cops went in for some reason and shot someone dead…why I have no idea.

That’s what I got out of it all.




Well yes on the constitution and yes & no on the land. It was a privately owned and improved farm about 30 years before TR's admin. stepped in to 'take' it. The overreach is in the Antiquities Act (short title) that allows (empowers) the feds through the exec. branch to come in and offer you squat for your land. You are to take that and get the fuck off...period.

You go to court and if you don't go broke, you may get a few bucks more than you spent on attorneys and only IF the farm (land) remained on ongoing, profitable concern. Otherwise the govt. could bankrupt you.

Yes, there were the Asians, that morphed into the continental natives but who didn't seem to want or occupy the land. Along comes whitey in the late 19th cent., he secures ownership through the legal means necessary at the time, improved (developed) it over time and there you have it. Along come the feds, they say, nice piece, we'll take it now for pennies.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 11:00:41 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The government should have called in the 1st Armored Cavalry on day one. Surround their position with a hundred times the 'opposing force' strength. Then state they have one hour to fully and unconditionally surrender to the FBI. After that hour, the US Army uses artillery to turn the area into nothing but craters and rubble. These idiots fucked with the US Government and placed the good citizens at risk. They did not have a justifiable argument; if they did, it would have already been used in a court of law. No, these morons didn't understand the 1st amendment to well. The 'right to peacefully assemble' does not mean 'take a position with hostile intention of resistance if demands are not met'.


Seriously?!? Bomb a wildlife refuge? Isn't that sorta opposite of what the Federal refuge is designed to be about?

What "good citizens" were at risk?

quote:

Yes, there was a lost of life and that is sad. However, if they didn't follow through with the string of bad decision making in the first place, most of them would be free men right now. What people forget is that land in question is owned by the people of the nation (all 310+ million). I was never consulted let alone asked if they could have the land. No, they just took things by threat of violence. What sort of people take things that other people have by threats of violence? Those 'honest and law abiding' US Citizens with guns? No, criminals and terrorists.
Stop trying to justify these moron's actions. They were not fighting the 'evil and bad government'. They were trying to circumvent establish laws through threats of violence if their demands were not met. The aggressor here is not the US Government. If anything the US Government gave these guys many chances to surrender peacefully without any blood shed. Now they are in a prison awaiting trial.


What's really funny is that most of the moderates and conservatives on this board disagreed with the actions of Ammon and the rest of that group. While many here agreed that the Federal government has overstepped it's bounds, the occupation was pretty much seen as the wrong way to go about petitioning government for redress of grievances.

quote:

In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?


The method used was likely the part that will stick in people's minds, but not the reasons for the occupation. Government would have been wrong to go in guns a-blazing, though. Sorry your maniacal blood lust won't be satiated.


On top of the fact that it would have been illegal.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Its over - 1/27/2016 11:06:05 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Seriously?!? Bomb a wildlife refuge? Isn't that sorta opposite of what the Federal refuge is designed to be about?


Not the wildlife refuge; the buildings near to it. Nor is it bombing, its shelling. The federal refuge is designed to be for all Americans to enjoy. Yet in this instance, the terrorist group was demanding the land be turned over to them; and were threatening violence....

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What "good citizens" were at risk?


....which leads us right into this next question of yours. Convenient of you, eh?

What happens when people become so enraged at someone else, while they have a gun? The gun is often used on that person. Happens every day in our nation if your looking for evidence. The people in the local area stated they were scared and even terrified of the 'non-regulated' militia operating in their 'backyards'. Further, you forget that FBI agents....ARE....US Citizens. They are the good guys in this instance. So if the 'militia' had fired/attacked the FBI agents; good citizens would have been at risk of injury and death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What's really funny is that most of the moderates and conservatives on this board disagreed with the actions of Ammon and the rest of that group. While many here agreed that the Federal government has overstepped it's bounds, the occupation was pretty much seen as the wrong way to go about petitioning government for redress of grievances.


Unfortunately the liberals and moderates on this board disagree with that viewpoint. A lost of trust created by conservatives distrusting their fellow Americans for at least two decades. Do you....REALLY...disagree? Or do you just....politically....disagree? The first implies you really do disagree with Mr. Ammon on ever part of his actions. To 'politically disagree' means to state things publicly while secretly agreeing with Mr. Ammon's actions.

America has a distrust problem. Its infected the nation at all levels and systems. It comes from the conservative ideology. They accused liberals of disagreeing with President Obama on things all the while secretly agreeing with the man at certain moments (i.e. how we dealt with Libya).

When there is genuine trust, stating "Hey, this guy is a punk, an asshole, and an asshat. I disagree with his actions and words" can be taken at face value. The problem is that distrust has corrupted everything it has touched. Makes it hard from liberals and moderates to take conservatives seriously.

Now, I take you seriously here in stating your words. I trust you to be a fair person whom I disagree with at times. But for mainstream conservatives; they are not likely to be taken seriously.

How do we restore trust in fellow Americans across each of the political viewpoints going forward? Very hard answer to state!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In two months, most of the nation will have totally forgotten all their bullshit. Which brings up the real question: Was it worth the effort?


The method used was likely the part that will stick in people's minds, but not the reasons for the occupation. Government would have been wrong to go in guns a-blazing, though. Sorry your maniacal blood lust won't be satiated.



It is an illegal use of the military and the destruction of the very property they were allegedly rescuing. I don't recall you calling for the military to sweep the streets of Baltimore to kill the insurectionists there.
And knowing that you wanted an illegal tyranical response does not mean that I support the occupation.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 1/27/2016 11:08:19 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 20
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