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RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 1:49:02 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I feel sorry for the children who have to live in such a backward, violent society. I feel sorry for the women who have been forced into slavery and are considered nothing more but throw away objects because of ignorance and stupidity. Unfortnately you can't change the past and its going to take a very long time to change their future. Until they can see past the religious nuts and their depraved teachings, they aren't going anywhere but to die.

I sometimes wonder if we here in the US aren't going to go through something like this. I see the changes the current administration has made and they aren't for the better. It seems we have our own gang of religious zealots who just can't wait to strip people of their rights and force Armageddon upon us. I mean afterall, they have been waiting a long time... 

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 1:51:03 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You're giving three times more to Israel.


That's not correct.  We give about 1/3 more to Israel.  Historically, it's been about $2B to Egypt, and about $3B to Israel. 

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/trade/files/98-916.pdf

(see p. 17)






Those figures do not account for building grants we give to Israel. It is a significant amount when added to the other aid we give them. I cannot post the information about that and I do not remember the exact figure, one of my geoegraphy professors outilined much hidden money that pours from USA coffers into Israelis. I believe there was one statistic that put the amount paid per Israeli is like 27k a year. Why are we giving that much money to a developed country? We should be building our own infrastructure, not paying for Israel's, especially when they have a similar standard of living as we do... why do they get welfare?



That is probably a more realistic figure than Moloch's 3billion. You just have to look at Israels military hardware to see Moloch is completely wrong. Israel is not called USS Israel for nothing.


Why are you putting words in my mouth?  I said "Its more then that, we are selling them mil hardware really cheap."

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 1:52:57 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		Ah yes the Evangelical-Fascist who some how ASSume that our founding fathers were insane bible thumpers like them.

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 2:07:53 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You're giving three times more to Israel.


That's not correct.  We give about 1/3 more to Israel.  Historically, it's been about $2B to Egypt, and about $3B to Israel. 

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/trade/files/98-916.pdf

(see p. 17)






Those figures do not account for building grants we give to Israel. It is a significant amount when added to the other aid we give them. I cannot post the information about that and I do not remember the exact figure, one of my geoegraphy professors outilined much hidden money that pours from USA coffers into Israelis. I believe there was one statistic that put the amount paid per Israeli is like 27k a year. Why are we giving that much money to a developed country? We should be building our own infrastructure, not paying for Israel's, especially when they have a similar standard of living as we do... why do they get welfare?


I think your argument would be stronger if you didn't have to rely on a hazy memory of something your geography teacher told you   If you look into it, I suspect you'll find that the "building grants" and "hidden money" he's referring to are contributions from individuals and private institutions, who -- like anyone else in the US -- can donate money to anyone they like.  That's not the same as foreign aid money which comes from the US taxpayer.

Regardless, I'm not interested in arguing for or against aid to Israel.  The original point was that someone here asserted that the US gives three times as much aid to Israel as Egypt.  That's not even close to being true.  We give nearly as much aid to Egypt as we do to Israel, and it has been that way for a long time.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 2:12:14 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I don't know how reliable this site is or whether it is just interested in its own agenda but it appears to be more in tune with juliaoceania

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

EDIT If this site is genuine it means American taxpayers are paying each Israeli above the minimum wage per annum.

You just have to look at Israeli military hardware. A country that size with the same size airforce as a middling power. It would be bankrupt without being bankrolled.

EDIT I misread the site but significant amounts are obviously given. Too tired to do the math.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2006 2:28:30 PM >

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 3:07:39 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		pollux, I am not referring to private contributors, I am referrring to the US government.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 4:09:39 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		I'm watching it all and wondering why we went there to fight. They are doing the job for us.  I'm thinking that IRAN my  jump in and nuke 'em, just because they can.

This my god can beat up your god has got to stop....  or is this the my land is my land and your land is my land?

All they seem to know is war. If you take their wars away.. what WILL they do?

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I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to Master96)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 4:17:53 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline 		meatcleaver: You initially wrote that the US sends 3 times more aid to Israel than Egypt.  That isn't even approximately true.  Israel historically has received about 1/3 more than Egypt. 

juliaocenia: If I'm following you, you're asserting that the US government spends more money than the $2.8B or so claimed by the State Dept.  You're claiming that this money is given in the form of "building grants", and that the amount of these grants makes the total dollar figure given by the US government significantly more than $2.8B.

What is your source for that information?  Even meatcleaver's (highly biased and decidedly pro-Palestinian) WRMEA site cites $2.8B as the total aid amount for 2002. 


< Message edited by pollux -- 7/19/2006 4:18:43 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 4:49:07 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		 
I gave the source of my original statement

I will say that one has to go through the budget in order to find every dollar that we send there, and any source I give when I do some googling, and i am going to go and google, will probably not be respected by you, you seem to throw around terms about other posters fairly loosely, so if I do produce a link (and I probably will, lost all my bookmarks on this issue ages ago) will land me in the same camp as you put meatcleaver because he produced one.

As far as your statements to meatcleaver, I could say you were a zionist, but that it is just a way to discredit those debating you, challenge them by attacking them.. low brow if you ask me, and I am not going to go that direction...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 4:58:17 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I gave the source of my original statement

I will say that one has to go through the budget in order to find every dollar that we send there, and any source I give when I do some googling, and i am going to go and google, will probably not be respected by you, you seem to throw around terms about other posters fairly loosely, so if I do produce a link (and I probably will, lost all my bookmarks on this issue ages ago) will land me in the same camp as you put meatcleaver because he produced one.

As far as your statements to meatcleaver, I could say you were a zionist, but that it is just a way to discredit those debating you, challenge them by attacking them.. low brow if you ask me, and I am not going to go that direction...


Pollux wasn't calling meatcleaver "highly biased and decidedly pro-Palestinian"; he was saying that about the site he provided, which may be true.

PS- looking through the site, it has 4 different ads you can pay for; each portrays Israel, rightly or wrongly, in a negative light.

< Message edited by Level -- 7/19/2006 5:02:45 PM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 5:04:14 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Ok..here is  congressional research paper that mentions housing grants of 10 billion dollars in the 1990s alone. It also mentions that these are guaranteed loans of hundreds of millions. These loans have never been repaid and some have already been forgiven according to that professor I talked about earlier. You could always find this information for yourself if you are truly interested in knowledge and not disinfo, everyone knows we give way too much to Israel, and here they are a very developed country.. this is my tax dollars.. I have a right not to like it.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47089.pdf

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 5:05:16 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I just realized that Level, I misread...sorry pollux

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/19/2006 5:06:08 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:07:00 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		I look at this a little differently.

There is a lot of " sympathy" for groups like Hezzbollah and other ones who's STATED. OPEN, WRITTEN mission is to destroy Israel and rid the world < at least there part of the world> of Jews. And plenty of criticsm of Israel  for trying to prevent their country and people from being eradicated. Eerily reminds me of Hitler's regime.

I heard an interesting question asked the other day it goes like this:

If Hezzbollah threw down it's weapons and ceased fighting, would Israel continue to pummel Lebannon ? The answer is No, they would not.

If Israel threw down there weapons today and decided to stop attacking Lebanon/Hezzbollah, would Hezzbollah thow down their weapons and cease. The answer is no, by there own words they have said, as I stated above, thier intention is to attack Israel and eradicate the Jews.

So to those sympathizing with Hezzbollah, you have every right to do that, but you are also giving your support to the destruction of Israel and the Jews..

Please do not get me wrong, I ache for the civilians and the non members of Hezzbollah. I hate the fact that this will probably be another World War before my time is done on earth. I wish their was an answer.  I feel for Lebannon. Hezzbollah apparently cares not what happens to the innocents that are trying to live their lives in peace. They are willing to sacrifice their own countrymen in order to reach their goal. They will do anything to complete their mission.   I cannot imagine that kind of hate in my heart.

In my mind the answer lies  in groups such as Hezzbollah stopping their attack on Israel.

As for me, I cannot sympathize with any group of people whose stated mission is to destroy  and eradicate from the face of the earth another country and it's people.

                    mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 7/19/2006 6:09:30 PM >

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:15:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Why does one have to be pro Hezzbollah not to like giving money to a so-called demomcratic government that has a religious symbol on their flag? I have the right not to like my tax dollars used to bulldoze people out of their homes. I have the right not to like my tax dollars used to bomb Lebanon...

Furthermore, I wonder if we quit occupying Iraq, bossing Iran around, stopped supporting Israel, and packed our military bases out of Saudi Arabia if terrorists would quit attacking us? I bet you they would, and your argument has about as much merit as the one I just posited

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:17:24 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		What should the people that were driven from their homes do?
 
I don't want to see Israel destroyed; I have a deep admiration for them and the Jewish people. But I can't just say to the Palastinians "forget about it". Sure, you and your father and his father built this home, and lived in it, and were forced out at gunpoint by someone you never raised a hand against, but just forget about it.


< Message edited by Level -- 7/19/2006 6:20:01 PM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:35:14 PM   
Littlepita


Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline 		I have complete contempt for Hezbollah and the countries that support and allow them to continue their rain of hatred. Israel is protecting itself plain and simple. This fight will continue. If this is not the start of  World War III then it very soon will be. I too feel sorry for the innocent victims of this world that always get caught in the cross fire. But, there is a much bigger issue at hand here. These Arab nations want Israel driven into the sea and they will NEVER stop wanting that. I pray for Israel and I pray for peace.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:41:07 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline 		I read the paper.  Nowhere does it mention anything about housing grants.  What it does mention are loan guarantees (basically a situation where the US co-signs the loan).  A loan (even one with a co-signer) is not a grant.  The figure of $10B is mentioned, but it is also stated that Israel has not drawn the full amount of $10B, because the flow of Russian refugees (which is what the money was for) has slowed.  The issue of repayment or loan default is not discussed in this paper.  

Here's what the paper had to say about this $10B:

quote:

In late 1990, Israel proposed that the United States government provide $10 billion in loan guarantees over five years to finance the housing, infrastructure, and jobs needed to settle in Israel an anticipated 1 million immigrants from the former Soviet Union. Under the proposal, Israel would borrow $10 billion from U.S. commercial institutions, and the U.S. government would underwrite the loans, agreeing to pay the commercial lenders if Israel defaulted. In September 1991, President George H.W. Bush asked that Congress delay consideration of the Israeli request until January 1992, so that the Soviet refugee issue would not interfere with Secretary of State Baker’s attempt to arrange an Arab-Israeli peace conference. In February 1992, Secretary of State Baker told Congress that the Administration would approve the loans only if Israel agreed to stop building or expanding settlements in the occupied territories.

Negotiations among Israel, the White House, and the Senate Appropriations Committee failed to find compromises on the conditions; the Israeli government refused to stop settlement activity, Congress rejected full White House discretion over the funds and conditions, and the White House insisted on Israeli promises to stop settlement activity in the occupied territories. Prime Minister Rabin’s announcement of a freeze on new housing on July 13 apparently met the Bush Administration conditions for the loan guarantees. The President and Prime Minister Rabin announced on August 12, 1992, that the United States would support loan guarantees for Israel. The loan guarantees were approved under Title VI, P.L. 102-391, (H.R. 5368) on October 6, 1992. The last tranche of the $10 billion was made available in October 1996 (for FY1997), but Israel has not drawn the whole amount available because the number of immigrants arriving from the former Soviet Union has decreased. The loan guarantees were used for infrastructure projects.


Interesting.  It's pretty clear from that paper that these are loan guarantees, not grants.  Why did you use the word "grant" to describe a loan?  They are two different things.

However, I did find this quote:

quote:

The main vehicle for expressing support for Israel has been foreign aid; Israel currently receives about $3 billion per year in economic and military grants, refugee settlement assistance, and other aid.


And this:

quote:

Since the mid-1980s, total annual economic and military aid to Israel has averaged $3.0 billion-$3.5 billion


Even if you consider the loan guantees to be "grants" (I don't, but let's assume for the sake of argument)...let's do some math.  Let's say that over 10 years Israel drew $7.5B of the $10B available, and that this debt was immediately forgiven.  $7.5B / 10 years = $750M / year.  Add that to the figure I quoted earlier (this is the same figure used on meatcleaver's anti-Israel website, btw).  $2.8B + $750M = $3.55B / year.  We're still in the same ballpark -- it's not even CLOSE to being three times the amount given to Egypt -- and that's accepting your argument that these are grants and not loans!

quote:

everyone knows we give way too much to Israel


Um, no...everyone doesn't know that because what you've said isn't a fact.  It's an opinion.  And one rather poorly supported by an ad populum at that.

quote:

this is my tax dollars.. I have a right not to like it


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.  It's a defensible argument to say that the US contributes too much foreign aid to Israel.  It's not a defensible argument to say that Israel gets 3 times more than Egypt.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:41:38 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		History teaches us that trying to find or create right and fairness, in the face of armed conflict, is an exercise in futility.
 
It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. It only matters who is strong and who is weak.
 
This isn't the answer that anyone wants to hear, but it is the answer taught by history ... an answer founded in brutal truths.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 7/19/2006 6:43:17 PM >

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:42:03 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Like I said, Level.... I wish I had the answers.

Again I point to Hezzbollah. The "peace process" < using that term very loosely> between the Palestinians and Israelis has been fragile at best. Hamas and the radical factions in Palestine are obviouly aligning themselves with Hezzbollah. While the average Palestinian  must be torn between their allegience to their Arab brothers, yet want to live in Palestine and get back what was taken from them.

Maybe I should use the very small steps that have been taken towards the Palestinians have been fragile at best. But whatever progress was made is certainly shattered now.

                mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Middle East, - 7/19/2006 6:42:36 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Furthermore, I wonder if we quit occupying Iraq, bossing Iran around, stopped supporting Israel, and packed our military bases out of Saudi Arabia if terrorists would quit attacking us? I bet you they would.


Julia, behave yourself.  Please don't post logic and common sense again, or I will send you to your room with no supper.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 60
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