RE: Middle East,

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juliaoceania -> RE: Middle East, (7/19/2006 7:25:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Why does one have to be pro Hezzbollah not to like giving money to a so-called demomcratic government that has a religious symbol on their flag? I have the right not to like my tax dollars used to bulldoze people out of their homes. I have the right not to like my tax dollars used to bomb Lebanon... Furthermore, I wonder if we quit occupying Iraq, bossing Iran around, stopped supporting Israel, and packed our military bases out of Saudi Arabia if terrorists would quit attacking us? I bet you they would, and your argument has about as much merit as the one I just posited Julia.. They did attack us when all of your criteria were being met, except the supporting of Israel. I am of course referring to 9/11 AND the USS Cole and all the other ones that were cast upon us in the 80-90s. 9/11 was not an isolated incident, it was just the most catostrophic. Before we went into Iraq, we were promised more of the same. So you may want to quit wondering.. we were told and forwarned. <Just an FYI, I am not a supporter of the war in Iraq.> I wasn't making an arguement, I was stating my opinion. You do not have to like it, you do not have to accept it. That is your perogative. As for being pro Hezzbollah because you resent sending your tax dollars to Israel, that is not what I was referring to. I was referring to the current war Hezzbollah and Israel are involved in. I came in late in the thread and was addressing what I thought the OP asked. mbmbn edited to add.. i missed your reference to the military bases in Saudi. But I do not think we were there against the will of the Saudi government. I could be wrong, I am sure some one will correct me If I am. The Saudis are royal despots stealing from the people and propped up by our government

popeye1250 -> RE: Middle East, (7/19/2006 7:36:33 PM)
I'd have to agree with Julia. When are these countries EVER going to pay us back? And the U.S. State Dept has all kinds of "give away programs" that don't get counted in the "Official" foreign aid figure each year. We'd occaisionally have to work with the State Dept when I was in the USCG. In Coast Guard "code" we called them "White Collar Welfare." Tall white guys in white pants and blazers with brass buttons on them and very white teeth who probably never lifted anything heavy in their lives with Ivy Leage "degrees" and a sense of entitlement. I'm not in favor of any type of foreign aid by our govt. If individuals want to contribute their own funds I of course have no problem with that and think it's the way it should be done.

maybemaybenot -> RE: Middle East, (7/19/2006 7:39:09 PM)
quote: I still have hope, mbmbn. [8\|] Many of the Lebanese and Palestinian people want nothing but peace, and a chance at a decent life; but man oh man, it's going to take a lot of work to get there. My hope is dimming, Level. God forgive me, but with the death of Arafat and the small concession made by Israel, I was thinking things would improve and progress. I agree the average Palestinian and the people of Lebanon and the govt of Lebanon want is to live like most people do.. work, feed your family, keep a roof over your head.. and have a little time to enjoy your friends and family. It almost brings me to tears when I hear the President of Lebanon pleading for things to stop. quote: IrishbyNature: Then maybe Isreal needs to "Cut that shit out!" (Like our Fearless Chimp in Charge said recently?) Grins And if they do... then what?? ... Peace?? .....you honestly believe Hezzbollah will say... Ahhhh c'mon guys we were just kidding with ya when we said we were going to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. They don't seem like the pracical joke kinda folks to me. mbmbn

Level -> RE: Middle East, (7/19/2006 7:46:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot quote: I still have hope, mbmbn. [8\|] Many of the Lebanese and Palestinian people want nothing but peace, and a chance at a decent life; but man oh man, it's going to take a lot of work to get there. My hope is dimming, Level. God forgive me, but with the death of Arafat and the small concession made by Israel, I was thinking things would improve and progress. I agree the average Palestinian and the people of Lebanon and the govt of Lebanon want is to live like most people do.. work, feed your family, keep a roof over your head.. and have a little time to enjoy your friends and family. It almost brings me to tears when I hear the President of Lebanon pleading for things to stop. quote: IrishbyNature: Then maybe Isreal needs to "Cut that shit out!" (Like our Fearless Chimp in Charge said recently?) Grins And if they do... then what?? ... Peace?? .....you honestly believe Hezzbollah will say... Ahhhh c'mon guys we were just kidding with ya when we said we were going to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. They don't seem like the pracical joke kinda folks to me. mbmbn I felt the same way, mbmbn. I'm afraid things are going to be bloody for awhile, until Hezzbollah is pushed far enough back to get them out of missle range; Hamas may not be as difficult (or they may); I have a feeling enough of the Palestinians are pushing for some sort of peace that Hamas, or some of them, may be eventually affected by it.

maybemaybenot -> RE: Middle East, (7/19/2006 8:46:35 PM)
Julia: I am saying this with respect and curiosity, so please do not take it any other way.. I have re read the thread and while in a reply to me you ask how being against US dollars being sent to Israel is Pro Hezzbollah, which I conceed it is not; you are very quick to point fingers at everyone except Hezzbollah. You have written of the bombing, bulldozing and killing of children and innocents by Israel. quote: Israel has been bombing innocent people for a long time, in addition to their collective punishments, they have bull dozed entire families in their homes. I have no regard for Hamas either, or Hezbolah.. What I find curious is the absense of any responsibility on the part of Hezzbollah in your posts. You have, perhaps inadvertantly, have not said one single word that would lead me to think you believe Hezzbollah bears any responsibility. You say you have no regard for Hezzbollah nor Hamas, but you won't go as far as to condemn there actions or their manifesto. I am in no way suggesting you support Hezzbollah. I just can't grasp why you would point fingers at everyone BUT Hezzbollah, as if they were free of responsibilty. I could be very wrong, but that is how your posts have read to me. As I said about my own post to you.. I do not have to like or agree with your opinion either, but I am curious from a strictly " curiosity killed the cat" nature. mbmbn

pollux -> RE: Middle East, (7/19/2006 9:06:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Estring Israel is finally doing what they should have been allowed to do along time ago, destroy their enemies. Hezbolah and Hamas have stated over and over that the destruction of Israel is their ultimate goal. You can't negotiate with people who don't even want you to exist. This has been proven time and time again as Israel has given concessions to no avail. There is a simple solution to ending the violence in The Mideast. Stop attacking Israel. Simple. Anyone who thinks that Hamas or Hezbolah will do that without being forced to though, is dreaming. Israel has been bombing innocent people for a long time, in addition to their collective punishments, they have bull dozed entire families in their homes. I have no regard for Hamas either, or Hezbolah.. But this onesided view of HUMAN suffering is the reason it exists at all. All people have the right to justice, not just Israelis, and until they realize this they will be surrounded by enemies. Im sick and tired of the killing of innocent children and those who would devalue their lives for some nationalistic bullshit. We all bleed red for crying out loud. An Israeli is no more valuable to me than an American, an American no more valuable to me than a Mexican, a Mexican no more valuable to me than a Palestinian.. You know what I'm sick and tired of? I'm sick and tired of people perpetually exaggerating and distorting -- ok, LYING -- about what's going on to make their politics more acceptable to others, or to make their arguments more persuasive. Israel has had a policy of destroying the homes of suicide bombers, but I have never heard of an instance where a family was deliberately bulldozed inside the home. If Israel has deliberately bulldozed an entire family in its home, I'd love to hear about it. If you're going to make accusations like this, you'd better be able to back it up with a credible evidence. Otherwise you're just spreading hate and you're part of the problem.

meatcleaver -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 12:29:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux You know what I'm sick and tired of? I'm sick and tired of people perpetually exaggerating and distorting -- ok, LYING -- about what's going on to make their politics more acceptable to others, or to make their arguments more persuasive. Israel has had a policy of destroying the homes of suicide bombers, but I have never heard of an instance where a family was deliberately bulldozed inside the home. If Israel has deliberately bulldozed an entire family in its home, I'd love to hear about it. If you're going to make accusations like this, you'd better be able to back it up with a credible evidence. Otherwise you're just spreading hate and you're part of the problem. You obviously don't listen to the world news because I know for a fact of one instance that was widely reported on the world news. They have also missiled and destroyed a house this time that they claimed was a hezzbullah hide out which turned out to be UN officials so their intelligence is not always right. I don't think they purposely target civilians so much as they are criminally negligent and happy to kill a whole family if they thingk they might get one militant. And this you can't refute. There are countless number of times that Israel has been hppy to kill women and children while carrying out judicial executions by air. All noted down and reported in the international press. This time of the three hundred or so Palastinians and Lebanese killed, the UN estimate one third to be children. So how caring and how careful are the Israelis? Or am I at least right in saying they are criminally negligent? Most of what they do is also against international law. If it was muslim, the US would have defined it as a terrorist state by now because several terrorist states defined by the USA do not break so many international laws as Israel.

Kedikat -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 1:37:02 AM)
The systematic destruction of societies, nations, people, that refuse to conform to other peoples desires. It won't be long till Canada has to completely conform to the desires of the US. East Timor is being taken over by Autralia. China is so far negotiating with others but soon will butt heads with others. The middle east is what is to come for many countries around the world. The strong will dominate the weak, the domination will sap that strength and all will fall into chaos. Much death, misery and lingering hatred and vendettas for the next generations to carry on the insanity. Of course the absence of easy to get oil will make it a lot more work to be stupid and violent on those further away. It will be vented more on your nextdoor neighbour. May you live in interesting times.

Kedikat -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 1:39:54 AM)
I also consider it the most gruesome irony that Israel is practicing so much of the genocidal things that was done to them.

irishbynature -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 2:23:30 AM)
Yes, Level..I stand corrected. I found the article and you were correct. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/wl_mideast_afp/g8summitmideast_060717120345 Bush, chomping on a piece of bread at a world leaders' lunch, also told British Prime Minister Tony Blair that a key to defusing the violence in the region was for "Hezbollah to stop doing this sh**, and it's over." "The irony is, what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over," Bush replied without specifying who "they" are. Please accept my apology! In that correction....Now I can firmly say, I disagree with Bush because he should have said Isreal or BOTH sides. Isreal is by no means innocent nor is Iran, or Hezbollah. Thanks, IBN

irishbynature -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 2:31:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: irishbynature quote: ORIGINAL: Master96 What do you think about what is happening in that region? Master96, I actually agree with what Bush said about this when he thought his mic was turned off..he said, "They need to know that shit out!" Hello irishbynature, You agree with that Bush said. What exactly does the sentence "They need to know that shit out" actually mean? "Need" I can understand. But how does one "know shit" and more importantly, how does one "know shit" in an outward direction? I apologize, I must have lost my MonkeyBoy to English decoder ring, and I suspect the book "The Bush Dyslexicon" wont be much help. Just me, etc. Sinergy Sincergy, I was incorrect about 'whom' Bush was referring to and corrected my post with Level, who stated it was Syria and not Isreal bush was referring to. I also edited the quote to "cut that shit out" and not "know that shit"...it was actucally "stop doing this shit".....see below. I am sorry for the confusion.[;)] "The irony is, what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over," Bush replied without specifying who "they" are.(GW Bush) So once again, I can disagree with Bush. I would like to know who "THEY"....is? Wouldn't you?[&:] Respectfully, Irish

UtopianRanger -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 2:45:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Master96 What do you think about what is happening in that region? Master96, They may go through Damascus, but all roads lead to Tehran if you’re a Neocon. What’s happening now is very similar to the Israeli operation in 1982, where they lost more personnel than in all their other wars. Their eighteen year stay in Lebanon bankrupted them last time and reduced their economy to a nothingness. If my memory serves me correctly {someone please correct me if I’m wrong} Hezbollah was spawned from Israel’s demonstrative presence the last time they occupied Lebanon. I know the Jew’s are tough, but again if my memory serves me correctly, Hezbollah is the only terrorist / resistance faction ever to drive the Israeli’s out of territory. I also have no dog in this fight, other than the fact that more of our hard earned tax payer dollars will be wasted in the name of a line drawn in the sand. If it were up to me.... I would make sure neither side received a single, flat dime from the sweat off the brow of an American. Let them fight till the last man stands. With the way they both solve problems, the world would be much better off if they exterminated each other. - R

meatcleaver -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 2:56:18 AM)
I think this is the problem. Every time Israel over reacts it just increases the resistance further down the road. It increases the perception in the mind of muslims that this is a war between a Judeo-Christian axis trying to dominate their region. Israel is perceived as a US client state with Britain something of a lap dog. For these three countries to be spouting platitudes about freedom and civilisation would be laughable if the situation wasn't so serious.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 3:07:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I think this is the problem. Every time Israel over reacts it just increases the resistance further down the road. It increases the perception in the mind of muslims that this is a war between a Judeo-Christian axis trying to dominate their region. Lota truth to that MeatCleaver.... By bombing neighborhoods filled with civilians, fifteen percent of the population in Lebanon that makes up Hezbollah, now turns into sixty percent. I think the toughest dudes on both sides oughta arm wrestle instead. - R

Chaingang -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 3:24:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger I also have no dog in this fight, other than the fact that more of our hard earned tax payer dollars will be wasted in the name of a line drawn in the sand. If it were up to me.... I would make sure neither side received a single, flat dime from the sweat off the brow of an American. Let them fight till the last man stands. With the way they both solve problems, the world would be much better off if they exterminated each other. Pretty much how I feel. I am sickened by U.S. foreign policy - it's just too absurd and so obviously intended to bolster certain elite interests. As far as the whole Middle East or "Israel Versus the World" thing, I bet more people die of heart disease or on American highways each year so basically I can't bring myself to give a fuck. Sure, I want world peace just as much as anyone, but in terms of what is happening and how much it effects me I just don't care - it's a minor distraction, like sports on TV. I'd hate to misquote her, but I think earlier in this JuliaOceania said something about gas at $10 a gallon. Well, doesn't ADM (Archer Daniels Midland) - and with considerable support - claim that corn can be used to produce biodiesel? Don't some others claim the same thing about hemp (and with considerably less support)? Right now we supposedly pay people not to grow certain things that overfill the nation's silos - how about we actually pay them to grow stuff we can use like crops for biodiesel that will eliminate our dependence on Canadian and Middle East imported oil? Frankly, I'd like to see legislation that more greatly regulates the energy industry to favor cheap fuel sources for Americans. I have this funny idea it's currently being run to make a few people very rich and the rest of us their de facto serfs on the land. The idea of "Peak Oil" only matters to certain interests and if you actually believe there are literally NO ALTERNATIVES to the way we do things right now. I don't give a flying fuck about peak oil because I don't really buy into it and I absolutely believe in alternatives. Right now the oil industry around the world teeters on obsolescence (much like other outdated business models like "intellectual property" in the digital era). Let the power fall, all things must pass. Do I have to mention the lovely reason growing hemp would be so great for the U.S.? Rope, baby rope...! The U.S. could become the shibari capital of the world. Why use scarecrows when you could just tie some bitch up to a post in the middle of nowhere and serve the same purpose? AND, of course, you could tie her up in such interesting ways...(this is a joke for the humor impaired).

Level -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 4:20:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: irishbynature Yes, Level..I stand corrected. I found the article and you were correct. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/wl_mideast_afp/g8summitmideast_060717120345 Bush, chomping on a piece of bread at a world leaders' lunch, also told British Prime Minister Tony Blair that a key to defusing the violence in the region was for "Hezbollah to stop doing this sh, and it's over." "The irony is, what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over," Bush replied without specifying who "they" are. Please accept my apology! In that correction....Now I can firmly say, I disagree with Bush because he should have said Isreal or BOTH sides. Isreal is by no means innocent nor is Iran, or Hezbollah. Thanks, IBN thinks Irish should write "Level is right" many times on a blackboard [:-] "They" is believed to be Russia;** "But on the issue of the moment, the Middle East conflagration, Mr Bush had a straightforward solution. “The thing is that what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it’s over,” he told Mr Blair. The “they” was widely presumed to be Russia. " http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2274273,00.html As for Bush needing to have said "both sides"; Israel did not do anything to Hezzbollah nor Lebanon before Hezzbollah kidnapped two of thier soldiers. Some are saying the Israeli's response is disproportianate (sp?), but I'm not sure I even agree with that.

SusanofO -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 4:46:26 AM)
At the risk of sounding: 1) Uncaring, or like a 2) Generalizing bigot or an 3) Idiot - In Ireland, in the Middle East, (Israel & Palestine, and Iraqi tribal infighting (also in Pakistan and Iran), and in Africa (to name a few) - cultures have warred with eachother for centuries - centuries. Every once in awhile, there seems to be a lull in the violence, or a peace accord of some sort ,and the fighting stops for awhile. Then someone(s) tick the "other side" off and it all starts up again. I have to wonder if it occurs to only just me, that, after centuries - that if they wanted to stop fighting, they'd do that. Am I saying both sides are "wrong"? No. Am I saying they don't have "things" worth fighting for? No. I guess I am saying that if they wanted to not fight, they could figure out a way to get that done and co-exist peacefully. So far, it hasn't happened - it doesn't really seem to be (to me) for lack of trying. I wonder what the problem is. Bad habit? Ego fragility? Lack of conflict resolution skills? Hmmm. I am more scared of terrorists striking the U.S. again than anything - not because I am patriotic to a fault (although I do love my country), but because I live here, and I am scared that expecting any government that cannot seem to balance a checkbook, or find real reasons to begin a war, has no real clear idea what they are up to, and where they might strike next, within the U.S. As well as - how the U.S. would officially respond without starting WWIII, since we seem to have no clear policy on this that makes any sense to many foreign countries, or even our own citizens. According to that shameless publicity hound and promoter of political partisan peace and positive (wink) thinking, Newt Gingrich, and his new book, WWIII has already started). - Susan

pollux -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 4:55:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: pollux You know what I'm sick and tired of? I'm sick and tired of people perpetually exaggerating and distorting -- ok, LYING -- about what's going on to make their politics more acceptable to others, or to make their arguments more persuasive. Israel has had a policy of destroying the homes of suicide bombers, but I have never heard of an instance where a family was deliberately bulldozed inside the home. If Israel has deliberately bulldozed an entire family in its home, I'd love to hear about it. If you're going to make accusations like this, you'd better be able to back it up with a credible evidence. Otherwise you're just spreading hate and you're part of the problem. You obviously don't listen to the world news because I know for a fact of one instance that was widely reported on the world news. One instance? Widely reported? Julia's post would lead you to believe that Israel is going around arbitrarily bulldozing homes full of kite-flying Palestinian innocents. Doing this all the time -- happily, as you say. I'd love to read more details about this one instance, if you could kindly locate the information.

meatcleaver -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 4:59:35 AM)
One can google for enternity and bring up Palastinian civilians killed by through negligence or intent by Israel. I'm struggling to find this particular instance. I remember seeing the report on the BBC World service about six months ago but then memory of time lapsed is pretty elastic. I'll keep looking when I have the time.

pollux -> RE: Middle East, (7/20/2006 5:03:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I'm struggling to find this particular instance. Is that a fact?

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