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RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 7:47:47 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		Apple! I have no love for myself - a classical example of Gluttony run amok and their ways of addicting their minions into the realms of utter malarkey.

This link will better explain the story and more factual than ops words he quoted from another source. Grr bloody link where are you
Apple vs the FBI - a plain English guide

Phydeaux I, for one, hope that apple gets stomped. Why is that? I do not follow most of your words but I expected something a bit better from you. Than a completely capitulate to Nineteen Eighty-Four No doubt you will be in the front row, baying them on, when they publicly hang Snowden

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 7:55:00 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Apple! I have no love for myself - a classical example of Gluttony run amok and their ways of addicting their minions into the realms of utter malarkey.

This link will better explain the story and more factual than ops words he quoted from another source. Grr bloody link where are you
Apple vs the FBI - a plain English guide

Phydeaux I, for one, hope that apple gets stomped. Why is that? I do not follow most of your words but I expected something a bit better from you. Than a completely capitulate to Nineteen Eighty-Four No doubt you will be in the front row, baying them on, when they publicly hang Snowden




I think that Phydeaux is not completely aware of what is being asked of Apple. I was surprised as well.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 8:51:50 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		We could put him on muffin bay and sell him for cake/shoe money - split the proceeds @Aylee we will get a good three goats for that one.

What is at stake - the final nail in the coffin...finality utopia end times

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 10:21:53 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

We could put him on muffin bay and sell him for cake/shoe money - split the proceeds @Aylee we will get a good three goats for that one.

What is at stake - the final nail in the coffin...finality utopia end times


I want LaMancha goats!

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 10:45:40 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		Man of La Mancha (1972) - I, Don Quixote

I will not afford your proclaimed ghost exorbitance again, nor my breath or sulphur - when i claim the moral ground. or fragments of reality, I stand on that ground unlike you and the many offering up ass spraying chaos

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 11:15:35 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Apple has replaced sifs for me on two occasions.
This has no effect on general security or privacy, and takes oh 10 minutes.

Apple received a court order and have chosen to disregard it. As far as I can tell, they wish to impede a terrorism investigation solely for pr. For that, they deserve to be stomped, and hard.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 11:32:43 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

It amazes me that we spend so much on national security every year, yet our government's agencies can't even hack into an iPhone.


and they cant keep hackers out of their own departments.. the IRS has been hacked.. again..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 12:21:58 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
There is a compromise.... All agree Apple has the capability to comply... So instead of giving up the decryption software.. Just allow Apple to decrypt the information on the phone and give it over to the Fbi... This could be done with FBI observers to keep the information integrity . What's the big deal?
...


Everyone does NOT agree.

ETA: The government is attempting to force Apple to write custom software that bypasses the lockout period and auto-erase on iPhones. Without this custom software, the FBI would spend roughly 5 years attempting all the possible pincode combinations to unlock the phone. The government has cited 18th century law, the All Writs Act, to compel Apple to write this software. "The ramifications of such a precedent could be tremendous. If the government can compel Apple to provide custom software, why can’t they compel Facebook to customize analytics that predicts the criminality of their user base?"



You did not read my post carefully... the capability to write the code is there...Apple said it was... that is what we can all agree on. So there is no reason Apple cannot get the information and give it to the FBI without giving the the code itself.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 5:26:23 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...
There is a compromise.... All agree Apple has the capability to comply... So instead of giving up the decryption software.. Just allow Apple to decrypt the information on the phone and give it over to the Fbi... This could be done with FBI observers to keep the information integrity . What's the big deal?
...


Everyone does NOT agree.

ETA: The government is attempting to force Apple to write custom software that bypasses the lockout period and auto-erase on iPhones. Without this custom software, the FBI would spend roughly 5 years attempting all the possible pincode combinations to unlock the phone. The government has cited 18th century law, the All Writs Act, to compel Apple to write this software. "The ramifications of such a precedent could be tremendous. If the government can compel Apple to provide custom software, why can’t they compel Facebook to customize analytics that predicts the criminality of their user base?"



You did not read my post carefully... the capability to write the code is there...Apple said it was... that is what we can all agree on. So there is no reason Apple cannot get the information and give it to the FBI without giving the the code itself.

Butch


Clearly you're not comprehending the situation.

The government wants to force Apple to create a custom firmware that bypasses security measures in the iPhone. Once that custom firmware is created, the knowledge is out; there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. Any developer who worked on this FBI request could release that code out into the wild. It could mistakenly be released out into the wild. Years of R&D on securing the iPhone (the same iPhone many government officials rely on) would be obliterated. Should a nation-state acquire the custom firmware they would be able to load it on any obtained iPhone and brute force the decryption, bypassing all the safeguards Apple put into place. Any future request from the government to access an iPhone will reference this precedent setting case. If the government thinks it needs information from other sources (eg Facebook), an All Writs Act request/command would compel that other source to write whatever software is needed to allow the government access. Follow that up with a National Security Letter blanket which imposes a gag order on receiving such a request (you can't disclose you've received an NSL) and no one would even know these things are occurring. Suddenly every iPhone has this backdoor, which is a roundabout way of "fighting" encryption.

Are you starting to understand?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 5:52:53 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Apple has replaced sifs for me on two occasions.
This has no effect on general security or privacy, and takes oh 10 minutes.

Apple received a court order and have chosen to disregard it. As far as I can tell, they wish to impede a terrorism investigation solely for pr. For that, they deserve to be stomped, and hard.


Has Apple installed a custom firmware image, digitally signed by Apple, on your device that bypasses security built into the iPhone because the government forced them to, or have they just done a routine iOS upgrade?

(Protip: it's the latter)

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 6:16:25 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		No you don't understand the situation... this has nothing to do with privacy... Searching a phone is no different than a court ordered warrant to search a home or vehicle when a crime has been committed.

The only question here is Apple's reluctance to be forced to develop and give software to the FBI. I am saying it is the information that is important not the software. The FBI should have no need for the software if Apple were to give them the information on the phone.

It is legal to issue warrants and a necessity for effective policing. You have no right to privacy when you commit a crime.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 6:17:09 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline
quote:

Are you starting to understand?

I'd have thought it would have been obvious.

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 7:00:35 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No you don't understand the situation... this has nothing to do with privacy... Searching a phone is no different than a court ordered warrant to search a home or vehicle when a crime has been committed.

The only question here is Apple's reluctance to be forced to develop and give software to the FBI. I am saying it is the information that is important not the software. The FBI should have no need for the software if Apple were to give them the information on the phone.

It is legal to issue warrants and a necessity for effective policing. You have no right to privacy when you commit a crime.

Butch



So you are good with repealing the 13th amendment to allow for involuntary servitude? Got it.

So the FBI has a valid search warrant to search a house. In the house, they find a safe. The safe was manufactured with a self-destruct. The FBI deems the risk of destruction of the contents of the safe too high if it proceeds with cracking the safe without expert assistance.

Now, what sort of assistance can the manufacturer be compelled to provide? Obviously, an ordinary subpoena for documents will get the FBI the design specifications and drawings from the manufacturer. No problem there. Let's assume that's not good enough to open the safe.

The FBI then says to the manufacturer, "we want you to design and build a device that disables the self-destruct."

Now the FBI is not asking merely for information in the possession of the manufacturer, now it is asking the manufacturer to do work for the FBI. The manufacturer refuses. Can a US court order the manufacturer to do work it doesn't want to do?

What the Feds have asked the manufacturer for is, in fact, a wrench - a specifically shaped wrench, that can safely disarm the self-destruct.

That brings us to the other little problem .. once it's known that the wrench *can* exist, its' design will be reverse-engineered in short order, and all the safes which had been advertised as fail-safe suddenly .. won't be.

In the event Apple build the wrench, they'd appear to immediately be open to both damages - for false advertising (I can imagine a class action lawsuit) and huge loss in market share.

Running the clock seems to be in their best interest, but .. realistically, the right answer is for the FBI to either get their crackers on how to open exploding safes, and/or to get some sort of humint operation working so they don't *need* to open it to make a good guess at what's inside.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 7:06:05 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline 		That's a really good take on it, and with prima facie constitutional grounds as well.

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 7:15:29 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Apple has replaced sifs for me on two occasions.
This has no effect on general security or privacy, and takes oh 10 minutes.

Apple received a court order and have chosen to disregard it. As far as I can tell, they wish to impede a terrorism investigation solely for pr. For that, they deserve to be stomped, and hard.


Has Apple installed a custom firmware image, digitally signed by Apple, on your device that bypasses security built into the iPhone because the government forced them to, or have they just done a routine iOS upgrade?

(Protip: it's the latter)



Protip: No its not.

I said they replaced they SIF - I meant they replaced the SIF. I had lost the password, forgotten my itunes password and the only way to to gain access to the device was to replace the SIF. Which they did in 10 minutes - on a computer, and an iphone.

Perhaps I should be more specific. they reset the keychain password. Which is all they need to do for the FBI as well.

The phone in question is a model 5c, which lacks touch id and lacks a secure enclave. All passcode protections are implemented in the ios and are *easily* replaceable by a single firmware update.

People commonly re-roll the SIF for jailbreaking. So like I said, this is a trivial operation for apple.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 2/18/2016 7:31:58 PM >

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 9:19:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Aylee... are you not reading my post carefully either. I am proposing a compromise... Rather than Apple giving the FBI backdoor software I am proposing that Apple retrieve the information from the phone and giving it to the FBI.

Are you against getting the information from the phone that could save lives and is a valid and necessary use of a warrant... or only against the government making Apple give them the software that could be used illegally... or both?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 9:22:38 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Aylee... are you not reading my post carefully either. I am proposing a compromise... Rather than Apple giving the FBI backdoor software I am proposing that Apple retrieve the information from the phone and giving it to the FBI.


That's not what the FBI wants. Read the order carefully.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Are you against getting the information from the phone that could save lives and is a valid and necessary use of a warrant... or only against the government making Apple give them the software that could be used illegally... or both?


Won't someone think of the children?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 9:27:53 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Protip: No its not.

I said they replaced they SIF - I meant they replaced the SIF. I had lost the password, forgotten my itunes password and the only way to to gain access to the device was to replace the SIF. Which they did in 10 minutes - on a computer, and an iphone.

Perhaps I should be more specific. they reset the keychain password. Which is all they need to do for the FBI as well.


No. The FBI very specifically demands a custom firmware that bypasses the bad-password delay and disables the auto-erase feature:

quote:


Apple's reasonable technical assistance shall accomplish the following three important functions: (1) it will bypass or disable the auto-erase function whether or not it has been enabled; (2) it will enable the FBI to submit passcodes to the SUBJECT DEVICE for testing electronically via the physical device port, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, or other protocol available on the SUBJECT and (3) it will ensure that when the FBI submits passcodes to the SUBJECT DEVICE, software running on the device will not purposefully introduce any additional delay between passcode attempts beyond what is incurred by Apple hardware.


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 9:33:39 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Do you understand the definition of the word ...propose?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: “APPLE TO JUDGE: DROP DEAD!” - 2/18/2016 9:44:52 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Do you understand the definition of the word ...propose?

Butch


The FBI doesn't want a proposal, the FBI wants a custom firmware they can use to access iPhones over wifi, bluetooth, etc. and will bypass all the security measures Apple put in place, and they're using the claim of terrorism in order to get it. This is what's in the order. Not a proposal from some random person on a BSDM message board.

Do you understand?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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