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RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/4/2016 8:05:37 PM   
DocStrange


Posts: 1076
Joined: 6/10/2015
Status: offline 		Use Virgin Olive oil. A very healthy alternative

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=132

Edited to add:
This should really be in the health and safety section

< Message edited by DocStrange -- 3/4/2016 8:08:39 PM >

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RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 7:03:42 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange

Edited to add:
This should really be in the health and safety section


It shouldn't though. If you're considering just the sidebars into what kind oil to use (and by the way, what about plain ol' butter?) or what kind of sink we have, then sure, it doesn't fit into General BDSM. But if you're someone who takes part of "BDSM" to mean Dominance and Submission, then yes, even this little, tiny thing about putting oil on popcorn does belong here. Because she doesn't want to comply, and she needs to figure out what she wants to do with that.

FR

Let's take me and the dishes a little bit further. I have never been raised, taught, or lived with someone who stacked the dishes anywhere other than in the sink. The sink, to me, is where dirty dishes go - specifically not the counter. So while I am technically being disobedient when I don't do that (which, by the way, will never happen again now that it's been so publicly discussed LOL) I am never making the decision to be disobedient. It just honestly doesn't even cross my mind. And then, when he calls me on it, I get defensive. And that is what's important here. Not whether I did something right or not, but my reaction to it when he points it out. Which, being defensive and argumentative, was not what it should have been, obviously.

So the way I see it, it's important for the OP to see how she's handling this change to something that she never even considered would need changing. And even if she doesn't handle it perfectly (by, say, coming here and essentially asking us to help prove her Dom wrong), how does she want to handle it?

This is why I have difficulty believing those who say "I just obey." They must be magical people, because I have a whole lifetime of experiences that cause me to sometimes disobey, even when I don't want to or think I am.

I may be completely wrong, but I guess I see this as the difference between obedience and behavior modification. If I were a different person, I would have negotiated that the kitchen is mine. (Really, I would have.) But since there were no negotiations, since it's his final say on everything, it's up to me to choose how to handle it. And the behavior modification part is getting from one choice (defensiveness) to the other (compliance) without having to mentally talk myself into it in between.

Another example: When I woke up in the night, I used to go in the living room and read. He moved in and suddenly, no more of that. It took me a few weeks of me trying to make a case for it. It then took me a few months of tossing and turning in bed, sulking about, being obedient but completely sullen about the whole thing. And now? It doesn't even cross my mind. I'm not choosing to be obedient. My behavior has been modified so that being disobedient doesn't even occur to me as an option, even the wrong one. With the dishes, my behavior has to be modified to even know to think of stacking them in the first place.

The argument could be made, I suppose, that eventually, behavior could or should be modified to the point of unquestioning obedience. While in theory, or at least in fantasy, this is appealing to me, I think it's unrealistic just because he's fighting against an awful lot of ingrained behaviors. (And, I suppose, I'm the sort to discuss, or debate, something just for kicks.) So for the moment, I see it as a continual learning process. It isn't always fun, and sometimes I hate it, but it's always what I want. That's what the OP, and others in her situation, needs to determine with this one small thing - her popcorn. Because there will probably be more of these small things that will actually be bigger, life-changing things. Will she be grudgingly obedient? That what "Just do what he says" will get her. Maybe that's enough for some submissives, and some dominants. But I really think there's more to it than just actions of obedience. Does she want to act like a submissive, or does she want to be submissive? They're not the same thing.

So coming here and talking about this one thing that means a lot to her, even if it doesn't mean a hill of beans to anyone else, is a good thing. None of us are to judge whether popcorn is anything to get fussed about, because it's not really about the popcorn.

(in reply to DocStrange)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 7:39:20 AM   
LilJuly76


Posts: 1245
Joined: 1/9/2016
Status: offline 		I must be one of those "magical" people. I just obey within the context of my BDSM relationships.

as far as I know I can't do magic though.

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 7:49:01 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LilJuly76

I must be one of those "magical" people. I just obey within the context of my BDSM relationships.



It's easy if the only orders you ever get don't challenge core believes, or habits, or things you feel strongly about.

As soon as orders start going into the realm of any of those 3 (or all 3 at once), flawless obedience becomes impossible.

_____________________________

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I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
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RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 7:59:53 AM   
LilJuly76


Posts: 1245
Joined: 1/9/2016
Status: offline 		that's why I always do a lot of talking before I commit. I guess I'm old fashioned that way, guess no point in me hooking up with a Dominant when a month down the line they order for me to quit work or something and one of the things that is on my list is they aren't allowed to tell me what to do when it comes to work. So asking questions back and forth is essential to me.

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RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 8:10:52 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LilJuly76

that's why I always do a lot of talking before I commit. I guess I'm old fashioned that way, guess no point in me hooking up with a Dominant when a month down the line they order for me to quit work or something and one of the things that is on my list is they aren't allowed to tell me what to do when it comes to work. So asking questions back and forth is essential to me.


Yeah, if you're going to stipulate that your Dominant is only allowed to give you orders that you've already permitted him to give you, flawless obedience becomes much easier.

Good job making all the people who don't stipulate what their Dominant is and isn't allowed to order them to do feel like shit though, because they fail to attain your standards of self-regulated perfection.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 8:33:33 AM   
LilJuly76


Posts: 1245
Joined: 1/9/2016
Status: offline 		what?

there are things I can't have the Dominant give me orders on and those main things are work and family. I didn't tell anyone to live to my standards.

work is separate from my BDSM life, many people keep it that way. my family, there are commitments I have to my family that I wouldn't appreciate Dominants getting in the way with.

ex: helping my ailing and aging grandparents

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 8:40:30 AM   
satanscharmer


Posts: 376
Status: offline 		Great post, Kaliko.

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 8:48:12 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LilJuly76

what?


Kaliko comes in and says: "I would have made the kitchen off limits to him if I could, but seeing that it's not off limits to him because of how our relationship works, I sometimes have a hard time changing my habits and obeying flawlessly.".

You come in and say: "Flawless obedience is easy for me. I just do whatever I'm told all the time.".

I say: "Flawless obedience is easy if you're only ordered to do things that doesn't attempt to change habits, or challenges core values."

You say: "Yeah, I just make sure that anything that challenges my core values is off the table, before entering into the relationship.".

And you don't see how that's a big fat "Fuck you, I'm better at obeying than you are." to Kaliko and others who have relationships like hers?

You're comparing two totally different things, because you're in a relationship where you make stuff that challenges your core values off limits. In other words: All the stuff you'd have a hard time obeying on is already off the table before you even start the relationship.
That's not the case for her. All the stuff she has a hard time obeying on is still on the table for her.

So coming in and saying: "It's easy for me to be perfect and obey flawlessly all the time." when you don't even attempt to obey to the same degree that she does, is grandstanding a level of undeserved superiority because you've already decided that you ain't going to obey (because he's not allowed to order you stuff in XYZ categories) on the exact same stuff she has a hard time being perfect on.

You're not any better than she is at flawless obedience, you've just already negotiated that you don't have to obey on all the stuff where your obedience wouldn't be flawless.




< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 3/5/2016 8:52:07 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LilJuly76)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 10:23:40 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		I have to say that I find it very hard to understand how anyone can be flawlessly obedient. That's why this thread and the recent ones on divisions of labour and "wrong" or "not right" have been so interesting.

How we negotiate what is important to us in the context of a BDSM relationship is the very stuff of our lives, whatever end of the 24-7/just for fun spectrum we are closer to.

Anyone who is never questioned on anything important enough for them to fail to comply, seems to me to be in quite firm control of their relationship. You may be willing to concede on things that are not important to you, agree where you agree, and put things off the agenda of relationship negotiation where they are important to you. If you can both do that then you have a very equal relationship (not much power exchange evident), but I suspect one party always finds themselves more positively excluded in the "off the agenda" category.

That is where the flawless obedience thing comes in. If you've got all your difficult/sensitive areas in the "off the agenda" category and those come before other considerations, the "submission" in the rest of your life is just a delicious fantasy. You are in control with a frisson of bedroom submission.

Popcorn, cleaning and storing knives, where to live, division of household labour, time spent with parents, kids from previous relationships, how to organise leisure time, how to educate children, voting, appropriate behaviour at social functions, films to watch, food to eat, holidays, voluntary work, whether to give money to charity and who - the list on things that can cause genuine conflict is endless (as opposed to general brattiness which is different).

Assuming you get together with someone who you are vaguely compatible with, there always comes a point as the sub, where changing what you have always done seems arbitrary or unnecessary. As UllrsIshtar suggests that might be because it is against your core beliefs or values. How you react and negotiate these situations is often very difficult, and we sometimes discover bottom lines or limits we didn't know that we had.

The answer is never just an unchanging one of "more obedience" or "be a better sub". If we have any personality or convictions at all, there will always be "popcorn" moments. Sure popcorn isn't ever going to be one of them for me, but how I iron my own shirts and which work colleagues I speak to at social events has been. I am submissive but I can't afford to live my life without pride and self-esteem. At the same time I want to do whatever makes someone happy and I love to please.

Sometimes the act of complying or obeying is very difficult, sometimes behaviour modification never works and your teeth are always a bit gritted, and sometimes the answer has to be no.

I would suggest that, as a sub, if you've never been to those places, it is not because you are a perfect sub/slave with a marvellous virtue for obedience. Empty vessel slaves are equally the stuff of fantasy (a good fantasy if it floats your boat of course) but a fantasy nonetheless. If you have flawless obedience it is either because you have wonderful and perfect compatibility or you are actually yourself in control because all the hard stuff is off the table.

I don't have a bratty bone in my body, but I do have beliefs and convictions, and my own deep-seated moral sense. Let's face it I'm also in my forties and some things are just ingrained. There is never going to be a relationship where that stuff doesn't come up against what the other person wants at some point.

Part of being a sub is exactly about dealing with the times just saying yes isn't what you do initially, and how you manage that together. We all have our limits and sensitivities.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 10:32:19 AM   
LilJuly76


Posts: 1245
Joined: 1/9/2016
Status: offline 		exactly

and given the fact we are all human, nobody is without flaws, sad fact of life but nobody is perfect.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 10:42:56 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

As UllrsIshtar suggests that might be because it is against your core beliefs or values. How you react and negotiate these situations is often very difficult, and we sometimes discover bottom lines or limits we didn't know that we had.


Assuming you're with somebody you're actually compatible with, I think most often it's not core values, but habits.

With my previous Owner, I got in trouble several times for making chocolate milk by adding powder to milk. The expectation was that it would be made by adding the powder to water, not milk.

It was a silly little thing, I didn't mean to disobey on it, but considering that I'd been making chocolate milk for 20 years by adding the powder to milk, it was something I messed up on about a dozen times before the habit was finally changed.

Flawless obedience when it comes to breaking old habits takes time. I for one refuse to believe that there's any submissive out there that will manage to break every single habit they have, and is able to attain flawless obedience on everything, after being told just a single time that they're expected to change their long standing habits.

Submissives fuck up. If the relationship is a good one, those fuck ups are unintentional, but that doesn't mean they don't happen.


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 10:44:55 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LilJuly76

exactly

and given the fact we are all human, nobody is without flaws, sad fact of life but nobody is perfect.


So which one is it then?

Are you one of the magical flawless people who always 'just obeys', and never fucks up?
Or are you a fallible human being who, despite her best efforts, sometimes fucks up and disobeys?

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LilJuly76)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 7:44:22 PM   
mousekabob


Posts: 187
Status: offline 		When I first met Master, I used to drink lots and lots of coffee. He had me cut down on it. I looked for every argument I could but still continued to obey, even while still arguing my point for needing the coffee.

Come a few years down the road, I get hit with stomach problems and now I can barely drink one cup of coffee because it kills my digestive system. He still got his way! lol

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------------------------
Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 7:48:08 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

I have to say that I find it very hard to understand how anyone can be flawlessly obedient. That's why this thread and the recent ones on divisions of labour and "wrong" or "not right" have been so interesting.



Well, I experience being flawlessly obedient when I was married to a man whom I agreed with about everything. Zero disagreement in our relationship. So anything he says is as good as my own decision anyway. I may appear flawlessly obedient because I had nothing to disagree with him about, I agree with all his decisions and I trust him to make decisions without consulting me. It was unnecessary. We were of like of the same mind. I have like 0% worries about any decisions he make. And through 9 years together, there has never been once, he made a decision that upset me. And I don't blame him for choosing to part in the end, because, technically, it is a good decision. We were sexually incompatible. We were just perfectly compatible everywhere else but sex. And when that happens, you're just like loving brothers and sisters living together in harmony, with zero sexual attraction and sexual intimacy. Infact, I think there is no difference between him and my brother. People think my brother is my boyfriend, because I have that exact same kind of relationship with my brother too, except we never had sex. I have never fought with my brother in my entire life too. We were always in perfect harmony.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 3/5/2016 7:54:16 PM >

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RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/5/2016 8:00:21 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I also think the word "perfect" has many different interpretation. To me, "perfection" isn't about never ever making any mistakes or committing any sins.

Perfect in a way where, a smoker could be perfect for another smoker, but imperfect to a non-smoker, but his still perfect to a smoker.

"Perfect" means, Perfect uniquely for you, EVEN his flaws are perfect! For me personally, when I start finding a man's flaws adorable. I know his getting close to perfect for me.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/6/2016 5:48:01 AM   
LilJuly76


Posts: 1245
Joined: 1/9/2016
Status: offline 		I never thought about perfect like that, but that actually makes sense, my parents were smokers, most of my siblings are smokers, I'm a non smoker and I try to find non smokers to be involved with. but maybe sometimes smokers get along better with smokers in relationships I don't know.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/6/2016 6:45:21 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline 		But that's not what the OP is asking. The OP isn't asking about how to find a dominant who will only make her do things she agrees with or allows him to do. The OP is asking if oil popped popcorn would be healthier.

....wait.

Damn.

Sigh. ....No. No, OP, oil popped popcorn is not healthier.

(in reply to LilJuly76)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/6/2016 7:35:58 AM   
LilJuly76


Posts: 1245
Joined: 1/9/2016
Status: offline 		I know that's what she was asking, I have no clue what is healthier,

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: My New Dom Is Trying To Change My Eating Habits - 3/6/2016 8:34:54 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

Sigh. ....No. No, OP, oil popped popcorn is not healthier.



'Tis more complicated than that.

Whether or not it's healthier depends entirely on the oil you're using.
Corn is bad. Whether it's popped or not don't matter, it's still bad.
Corn + air popped = bad
Corn + vegetable oil popped = even worse
Corn + good oil popped = still bad, but you're now eating at least one thing that's good for you and adds something to your nutrition, ergo, it's slightly healthier. Still bad though.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 80
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