Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (Full Version)

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MasterJaguar01 -> Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/24/2016 6:58:27 PM)

No misogyny here.

Just a question for all strict Constitutionalists out there.

Article II of the Constitution outlines the powers of the President. It ONLY uses male pronouns. ("He", "His")

Would a female President not be entitled to those powers sans a Constitutional Amendment? We can all rationalize on WHY the Constitution was written that way, but that doesn't answer the question.

Would someone challenge it, if a woman were elected President? Keep in mind the Constitution does not say the President must be male, but rather seems to assume that it is the case.


What do you think?




Real0ne -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/24/2016 7:37:38 PM)

I could see someone making that argument but I cant imagine where it could have been intended that the El Prezee Dante' was intended to be strictly male.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 12:18:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
No misogyny here.
Just a question for all strict Constitutionalists out there.
Article II of the Constitution outlines the powers of the President. It ONLY uses male pronouns. ("He", "His")
Would a female President not be entitled to those powers sans a Constitutional Amendment? We can all rationalize on WHY the Constitution was written that way, but that doesn't answer the question.
Would someone challenge it, if a woman were elected President? Keep in mind the Constitution does not say the President must be male, but rather seems to assume that it is the case.
What do you think?


That is an interesting question. I'm not sure it's ever going to be determined for 100% certainty, either. I do believe original intentions and historical definitions and usage trump current definitions and usage.

Good read from the WaPo

Interesting article from LibertyLawsite.org

Both articles bring up that the Constitution uses the male-gender forms of pronouns, and that at that time in history the male-gender pronouns referred to a male, and it also was used to refer to both genders. It is still common to use the male pronouns when referring to a group of mixed gender people.

From the second link:
    quote:

    This might seem like an odd question, but a journalist recently asked me my opinion about the matter. It turns out that Article II of the Constitution refers to the President as a him. For example: “He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years.” If this “he” meant only a male person, there would be a strong argument that the President had to be a male.

    But I believe that this interpretation is mistaken. It is my understanding that the term “he” at the time of the Constitution had multiple meanings or usages. While one of those was to refer to a male person, another was to use the term “he” to mean “he or she.” Under that usage, a female President would be constitutional.

    The same issue arises as to members of Congress as well. For example, Article I, section 2, clause 2 provides “No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty-five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.” (Emphasis added.)


The article also points out the irony in the modern feminist movement:
    quote:

    While the original meaning appears to indicate that females can serve as members of Congress or as President, I am not sure that all versions of nonoriginalism support this result. Consider the view that we should interpret the Constitution based on the modern meaning of its terms. In an effort to induce writers not to use “he” to mean “he or she”, feminists and others have suggested that “he” always means a male person and does not have the “he or she” meaning. Suppose they have succeeded in changing the meaning of the word he. Then, under the modern meaning interpretive view, they might have had the unintended effect of prohibiting women from serving as President or in Congress. Another example that illustrates the weakness of the view that interprets the Constitution based on the modern meaning of the words.
    (emphasis added)


The WaPo link is to a blog by Robert Natelson. Here is a link to Professor Robert Natelson's qualifications.

The LibertyLaw article was written by Michael Rappaport. Here are his qualifications.

Considering that both of them are supportive of originalism, and both of them finish their writings supporting the Constitution NOT barring a female from being POTUS, I think it's pretty solid to think a woman can be President.

Excellent topic! I can say that by 3:18am (Eastern Time Zone), I had already learned something today.




Phydeaux -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 12:53:34 AM)

Regardless of what the framers intended - we are a long way from that ever actually mattering, now aren't we.
The Supreme court would hold that the equal protection clauses would take precedence.




Real0ne -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 5:41:26 AM)

ditto! who needs amendments when we have the creemeeo supreeemeeo's? LOL




satanscharmer -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 5:44:16 AM)

Good question. Maybe about a decade ago, I would have thought this question to be ridiculous.

I agree with what DS shared and would contend that the use of 'he' in the constitution was meant as 'he or she', which is often the case in writing when the gender is unknown. Such as the case in other languages (I'm would almost assume all others, but I really do not know), so it's not an odd or special-to-English rule. It wasn't until rather recently (maybe 30 or so years ago) that the use of 'he' when it may include a female may be considered controversial.




thompsonx -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 6:26:18 AM)

Geraldine ferraro was the vp candidate in 84. To be next in line for the presidency would seem to indicate that her elgibility for the presidency is settled precident thirty years ago.




WickedsDesire -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 8:08:20 AM)

The same issue arises as to members of Congress as well. For example, Article I, section 2, clause 2 provides “No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty-five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.” (Emphasis added.)

Always perplexed me that still does to this day.

In Scotland (UK) Elected MP house or parliament malareky at 20 and a she, a feeble women, at that. Minimum age limit is currently 18. Seems to make perfect sense that.
Now, for the Scottish Election you can vote at 16.... I wonder let me look it up..cannot find it but I seem to think its still 18 which seems abit daft.

I am no expert in you constitution, but wasn't it wrote by men, and probably a few Scottish men at that.

Keep in mind the Constitution does not say the President must be male I presume that does not preclude apes either so who cares,.

And no no-one will challenge it - save perhaps buffoonery(trump) I suppose. Mind you was there not a furore regarding your Obama birth certificate and those who alluded to him sailing down the Kerio in a banana boat.... Mind you even I found the unearthing of his birth certificate somewhat suspect. And I never thought i see the day with a man, or women condoleezza rice is gorgeous way more so than hilary, with darker skin than mine, rule over your lands, which you nicked from backward savage natives who dwelt in wig wam bams

Perhaps what rags are left of your constitution should be amended.

1918
Political movement towards women's suffrage began during the war and in 1918, the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed an act granting the vote to: women over the age of 30 who were householders, the wives of householders, occupiers of property with an annual rent of £5, and graduates of British universities. Well we gave some of them the vote in 1918 i guess we got there eventually

Uk constitution rules, no idea (do any of you know?) regarding feeble women, and let us never forget Margaret Thatcher who was as mad as bag of owls




Lucylastic -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 8:42:58 AM)

snorts WD...that actually made me laugh:)mad as a bag of owls, yeah she was that!!!




BamaD -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 9:20:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

No misogyny here.

Just a question for all strict Constitutionalists out there.

Article II of the Constitution outlines the powers of the President. It ONLY uses male pronouns. ("He", "His")

Would a female President not be entitled to those powers sans a Constitutional Amendment? We can all rationalize on WHY the Constitution was written that way, but that doesn't answer the question.

Would someone challenge it, if a woman were elected President? Keep in mind the Constitution does not say the President must be male, but rather seems to assume that it is the case.


What do you think?

When the gender was unspecified male pronouns were used to mean "a person".




mnottertail -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 9:44:08 AM)

Since women were not allowed to vote, its a horse apiece. the first federal congresswoman was elected 4 years previious to their getting the vote.





WickedsDesire -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 10:04:07 AM)

Lucylastic she died all alone did you know that and after that idiots were decrying a state funeral. She was not nice person, fixed in here ways, who dismantled the primary industry of our lands..i have so many other words that do not belong here....why do you remember her (never forget i am actually 46) canadian?




PeonForHer -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 10:08:10 AM)

quote:

In Scotland (UK)


Is there another Scotland?




Lucylastic -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 10:10:59 AM)

Im born and bred in the uk.
Nw london.
Came to canada in 88. Been here since. Im 54, i remember her reign only too well.




thompsonx -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 10:26:02 AM)


ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Im 54

I have shoes older than that.




joether -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 10:54:22 AM)

One could make a contest of it in the courts; but I think the courts would rule that 'He' and 'His' is simply 'old school talk' for 'Us' and 'Them'. There are sections of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights that would need modifying if we brought it up to a modern day understanding of language. For instance, the 7th amendment allows for a trial by jury for a case in which damages could exceed $20. Back in the late 18th century, $20 was the equivalent of ~$20,000. Do we really need a 3rd amendment given all the empty buildings we have in the nation right now?

I might be amused if the Republicans tried this tactic if Hillary was elected in the general elections. Their 'last ditch effort' to 'protect the nation' from Hillary Clinton. Being soundly and totally defeated in the courts. Not to mention being made the center of jokes for a few months.





Phydeaux -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 11:00:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire


Uk constitution rules, no idea (do any of you know?) regarding feeble women, and let us never forget Margaret Thatcher who was as mad as bag of owls




A bag of owls doesn't sound mad at all. To the contrary it seems quite a hoot.




Awareness -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 11:27:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

No misogyny here.

Just a question for all strict Constitutionalists out there.

Article II of the Constitution outlines the powers of the President. It ONLY uses male pronouns. ("He", "His")

Would a female President not be entitled to those powers sans a Constitutional Amendment? We can all rationalize on WHY the Constitution was written that way, but that doesn't answer the question.

Would someone challenge it, if a woman were elected President? Keep in mind the Constitution does not say the President must be male, but rather seems to assume that it is the case.


What do you think?
Some may argue it depends on whether you're Supreme Court Judge who interprets the Constitution literally or as a living document.

Scalia was an originalist but I think even he would struggle to interpret the Constitution as disbarring a candidate for President on the basis of gender.

You also have to remember that the Constitution was written at a time when all political power was invested in male landowners. Ordinary men and women who did not possess property (and former slaves) did not possess the right to vote. Conditions have changed.

Article Two of the constitution defines the qualifications of for Office:

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

Since women are not disqualified by this section, it would be an uphill battle to try and convince the Supreme Court otherwise.

It would also be political suicide - so the entire question is moot.




BamaD -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 1:06:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

No misogyny here.

Just a question for all strict Constitutionalists out there.

Article II of the Constitution outlines the powers of the President. It ONLY uses male pronouns. ("He", "His")

Would a female President not be entitled to those powers sans a Constitutional Amendment? We can all rationalize on WHY the Constitution was written that way, but that doesn't answer the question.

Would someone challenge it, if a woman were elected President? Keep in mind the Constitution does not say the President must be male, but rather seems to assume that it is the case.


What do you think?
Some may argue it depends on whether you're Supreme Court Judge who interprets the Constitution literally or as a living document.

Scalia was an originalist but I think even he would struggle to interpret the Constitution as disbarring a candidate for President on the basis of gender.

You also have to remember that the Constitution was written at a time when all political power was invested in male landowners. Ordinary men and women who did not possess property (and former slaves) did not possess the right to vote. Conditions have changed.

Article Two of the constitution defines the qualifications of for Office:

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

Since women are not disqualified by this section, it would be an uphill battle to try and convince the Supreme Court otherwise.

It would also be political suicide - so the entire question is moot.


This is much simpler than most people try to make it.
If it went to SCOTUS it would be laughed out.
And no the Republicans would not try this, however many Dems are serious in the equally stupid attempt to disqualify Cruz, and they could be dumb enough to try this ploy if he wins.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Can a woman be President of the United States sans a Constitutional Amendment? (3/25/2016 1:41:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Uk constitution rules, no idea (do any of you know?) regarding feeble women, and let us never forget Margaret Thatcher who was as mad as bag of owls



A bag of owls doesn't sound mad at all. To the contrary it seems quite a hoot.



Well played, sir. Well played, indeed!



Michael




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