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Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/2/2016 8:00:57 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Finland has a history of producing the highest global test scores in the Western world, as well as a trophy case full of other recent No. 1 global rankings, including most literate nation.

In Finland, children don't receive formal academic training until the age of 7. Until then, many are in day care and learn through play, songs, games and conversation. Most children walk or bike to school, even the youngest. School hours are short and homework is generally light.

In Finland teachers are the most trusted and admired professionals next to doctors, in part because they are required to have master's degrees in education with specialization in research and classroom practice.

“Our mission as adults is to protect our children from politicians,” one Finnish childhood education professor told me. “We also have an ethical and moral responsibility to tell businesspeople to stay out of our building.”

Too tough for the US ?

What if high-poverty students are the children most urgently in need of the benefits that, for example, American parents of means obtain for their children in private schools, things that Finland delivers on a national public scale — highly qualified, highly respected and highly professionalized teachers who conduct personalized one-on-one instruction; manageable class sizes; a rich, developmentally correct curriculum; regular physical activity; little or no low-quality standardized tests and the toxic stress and wasted time and energy that accompanies them; daily assessments by teachers; and a classroom atmosphere of safety, collaboration, warmth and respect for children as cherished individuals?

HERE

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You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith
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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/2/2016 9:26:49 PM   
Kirata


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Thanks for the link. That one went into my Education folder.

K.

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/2/2016 9:55:46 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Thanks for the link. That one went into my Education folder.

K.


The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.

That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/2/2016 10:10:23 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Thanks for the link. That one went into my Education folder.

K.


The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.

That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.


I agree with the German approach. We give short shrift to vocations, and this is one of the areas that unions could do a great job in. Running/monitoring/accrediting vocational training machinists, electricians, hvac etc.

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 1:49:59 AM   
Edwurde


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Thanks for the link. That one went into my Education folder.

K.


The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.

That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.


From what my German (Deutsche Sprache) teacher from Nuremberg (Nürnberg) told us, the track of educational course is actually determined after the fifth grade. From thereon, it's off to either the Hauptschule ("main school" or "general school"), the Fachschule (trade school) or the Gymnasium (college prep). (Schule {school}is pronounced like "Sheila" but with a u for the middle vowel.)

If it's the trade school, some of them are already done by the end of tenth grade. Or they might go to fourteen years if the concentration is, e.g., electronic or computer technician. Graduates of the Gymnasium, which takes thirteen years all total (from first grade), must still pass the Abitur test before being admitted into a university (Hochschule, literal translation- "high school," but effective translation is "college"). Which is extremely low cost, just a nominal tuition to keep out the lifers.

Aside from all that "pre-determination," anyone from whatever educational 'track' can later take night school classes and take the Abitur and get into a college if they pass.

I think that (Ich bin der Meinung dass) this is a more cost effective way of going about it. Why cost taxpayers twelve years for brick layers and plumbers? And on the other side of it, Germans, and Europeans generally, are not nearly so dismissive of those in the "lower trades" as we are in the US. In the first place, they pay them better. They might not be held in the same regard as, say, teachers, but neither are 'common workers' spat upon and used as experiment for how much can be got away with in low pay, either.

Heck, more than half the brick layers have taken two years of English, and most of the waitstaff have health insurance and pay high enough where tips aren't even expected.

It's just a different mindset.

In the US, higher education is, bizarrely, thought of as a "privilege," rather than a means to be nationally more competitive in the world. The Germans don't miss out on that one at all. But in any case, those who don't get into the Gymnasium and then the Hochschule (die Universität) are still ensured to be well trained, and having enough employers ready to hire them, at good pay. Unlike the US, where employers are trained to think that they are being cheated if they have to pay high school grads more than 7 dollars an hour. Hence all the Mexicans. Hence all the bitching (from everybody) concomitant thereby.

Germany, the second or third largest total exporters in the world (depending on the year), at ~27% population of the US. Maybe they know what they're doing, but who knows ...



< Message edited by Edwurde -- 4/3/2016 2:24:00 AM >

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 4:30:06 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Finland has a history of producing the highest global test scores in the Western world, as well as a trophy case full of other recent No. 1 global rankings, including most literate nation.

Cuba has a similar literacy rate but the article referenced makes no mention of it, where as the cia does.

http://world.bymap.org/LiteracyRates.html

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 5:51:41 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.

That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.


I can say from experience there are far too many kids in America graduating high school, and going on to college, who are not academically fit for it and though some late bloomers might get caught out by this, im all for steering people away from college who don't "belong" there. the late bloomers can come back, later.

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 5:56:52 AM   
thompsonx


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I can say from experience there are far too many kids in America graduating high school, and going on to college, who are not academically fit for it and though some late bloomers might get caught out by this, im all for steering people away from college who don't "belong" there. the late bloomers can come back, later.

What exactly do they teach in college that these "academically unfit" folk would have trouble with?

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 6:31:20 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.
That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.

I can say from experience there are far too many kids in America graduating high school, and going on to college, who are not academically fit for it and though some late bloomers might get caught out by this, im all for steering people away from college who don't "belong" there. the late bloomers can come back, later.


I agree and disagree, Bounty. I agree there are far too may American kids unfit for college that are going to college. I disagree that anyone, but the individual and his/her family, should make any decisions as to whether or not that individual should be going to college.

Who are we to say that Joe or Jane Public "shouldn't" be going to college? Who are we to squash their aspirations? Isn't freedom about being able to make your own way through life, building the life you want?

I love Phydeaux's idea of Unions getting involved in vocational training. I would think they'd jump at the opportunity. However, no one, imo, should be pushed to one type of school or another.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 6:38:22 AM   
Edwurde


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Joined: 3/27/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.

That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.


I can say from experience there are far too many kids in America graduating high school, and going on to college, who are not academically fit for it and though some late bloomers might get caught out by this, im all for steering people away from college who don't "belong" there. the late bloomers can come back, later.



Germany has a slightly lower percentage of their "high school grads" in the university system than the US, and if you read and can in any way comprehend my previous post, you would understand why.

Just as they don't waste 12 years for plumbers and brick layers, they also don't waste a full 16 years of phenomenal educational cost on book keepers or C programmers or store managers, all of which idiotic US companies insist on requiring a Bachelors degree to even fill out an application, to pay you $12 an hour to start (or in the SE, 9-10 to start). Even as little as the US subsidizes higher education, that still amounts to an incredibly stupid low return on investment.

German waitstaff are making what some US college grads make, while some who finished their trade school training in tenth grade are making $15 an hour to start. The whole point is that Germany doesn't treat workers as "the enemy" nearly to the same degree as taught in American universities (been there, done that, seen it firsthand). Now, you see, what any objective business person can see from this is that a $15 starting wage from only ten year's educational expense represents a fantastic return on investment. But in the US, anything like this would cause a tremendous amount of screaming and crying. Warped, to put it mildly.

Those who don't have a "college education" (there) are much better suited for the realities of the work life, better trained, more productive, and certainly more well considered in -their- society than is the case in the US, especially by employers in the US. And they don't have Der Spiegel spitting on them every day like the WSJ does in the US.

As pointed out earlier, they export as much or close to as much as the US (more than Japan, in any case), with only 27% of the population.


< Message edited by Edwurde -- 4/3/2016 7:19:49 AM >

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 7:10:08 AM   
thompsonx


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What exactly do they teach in college that these "academically unfit" folk would have trouble with?

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 7:12:12 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Edwurde

What exactly do they teach in college that these "academically unfit" folk would have trouble with?

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 7:26:56 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I agree with the German approach. We give short shrift to vocations, and this is one of the areas that unions could do a great job in. Running/monitoring/accrediting vocational training machinists, electricians, hvac etc.

This is one area where unions do what you suggest that they are not doing.

Training programs and apprenticeships are at the heart of unions’ efforts to ensure that working men and women have a voice in our country's ever-changing economy. Every year, the labor movement trains more than 450,000 workers.

http://www.aflcio.org/Learn-About-Unions/Training-and-Apprenticeships

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 7:28:00 AM   
Edwurde


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quote]ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Edwurde

What exactly do they teach in college that these "academically unfit" folk would have trouble with?
[/quote]



All explained in my previous two posts. Don't push it any further. Other than that, address the question to the person who first presented the term you have issue with.

< Message edited by Edwurde -- 4/3/2016 7:29:29 AM >

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 7:32:11 AM   
Edwurde


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwurde


quote]ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: Edwurde

What exactly do they teach in college that these "academically unfit" folk would have trouble with?




All explained in my previous two posts. Don't push it any further. Other than that, address the question to the person who first presented the term you have issue with.




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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 7:52:11 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Thanks for the link. That one went into my Education folder.

K.


The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.

That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.


I agree with the German approach. We give short shrift to vocations, and this is one of the areas that unions could do a great job in. Running/monitoring/accrediting vocational training machinists, electricians, hvac etc.

Yes and I have felt for some time that in a general sense, Germany has created what others and myself have called...a value added society which results in Germany ranking among the top nations (if not the top) in the export of finished goods.

This regime also accounts for what is not caused by govt. policy but technology advances. For example and I was there, when IBM first introduced electronic (real time) memory, (IBM 360) analysts argued that advancement alone, eliminated 7 million jobs. (industry left the ubiquitous IBM Card) I found that no. high but I was reminded the reduction in HR requirements for card production and use by the customers. (IBM left DC with the closing of the IRD Internal Records Div. plant at 18 & E. St NW...everybody transferred) I bring it up if only because in the US, computer training exploded but not in HS, only post K-12 education.

The Germans and Japanese (all of Europe) bought 100's of mainframes but also adjusted their HS curricula for that advancement, the US did not.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 8:52:57 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwurde
... idiotic US companies insist on requiring a Bachelors degree to even fill out an application, to pay you $12 an hour to start (or in the SE, 9-10 to start).


Educational requirements are tools for culling the herd of applicants. If a company likes your resume, they'll invite you for an interview, even if you don't have the "required" degree. Plus, if they don't like you for some reason that has anti-discrimination laws about, ifyou don't have a degree, they have that requirement they can use to not hire you. Additionally, many places who require a degree don't necessarily care that the degree isn't in the area of the job interviewed for. Obviously, the more technical the job, the more important it is that the degree is in the same field.

Having a degree demonstrates a certain amount of discipline, motivation, determination, and "stick-to-it-iveness."


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Edwurde)
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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 9:31:04 AM   
bounty44


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Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
The Europeans in general are more innovative. In Germany, I read where as of entering the 10th grade, you are tested and with a counselor, a firm decision is made that either a student has the aptitude to go into the professional ranks, i.e., Doctor, layer, engineer or technical side, services, repair, trouble shooting technicians, nursing, etc. The last three years in HS are for prep. in that direction.
That way, once entering college, or any form of higher ed., the major or work path is known and a career path is set. Students are free to pursue what they wish after HS but getting admitted to through college, is much more difficult.

I can say from experience there are far too many kids in America graduating high school, and going on to college, who are not academically fit for it and though some late bloomers might get caught out by this, im all for steering people away from college who don't "belong" there. the late bloomers can come back, later.


I agree and disagree, Bounty. I agree there are far too may American kids unfit for college that are going to college. I disagree that anyone, but the individual and his/her family, should make any decisions as to whether or not that individual should be going to college.

Who are we to say that Joe or Jane Public "shouldn't" be going to college? Who are we to squash their aspirations? Isn't freedom about being able to make your own way through life, building the life you want?

I love Phydeaux's idea of Unions getting involved in vocational training. I would think they'd jump at the opportunity. However, no one, imo, should be pushed to one type of school or another.



to some extent ive got a foot in both camps too. but I think my bottom line is letting so many kids into college when they are academically unfit for it is ultimately damaging to the kid, the college and the people who are indeed there to learn and who are capable of doing so.

I suppose in that regard I view college not as an obligatory extension of high school where everyone can go, but rather, like a selective place that requires certain standards before being allowed the privilege---like employment, or a place on an athletic team that has athletic standards and roster limits.

that said, im not saying they necessarily shouldn't be allowed but id love to see a few things done differently. at the very least id love to see admission standards for colleges raised across the board where if youre not in the top x % of your class senior year, your application is deferred until such a time that those presumed (and fairly accurate accessed actually) deficiencies are addressed.

generally speaking, those who are academically unfit, are also psychologically unfit for college, and they make teaching and the classroom a nightmare.

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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 12:40:24 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		One fix to that is the same system in germany the trade schools, (vocational schools there are equal footing with college. Here many places they have shared buildings and we mouth it, but vocational schools are not on par with college in reality.

Not everyone wants to be a paper pusher.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Why Finland has the best schools. - 4/3/2016 12:41:06 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Edwurde

I think that (Ich bin der Meinung dass) this is a more cost effective way of going about it. Why cost taxpayers twelve years for brick layers and plumbers?


Are you saying that the purpose of public education is to produce drones/worker bees?



(in reply to Edwurde)
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