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Panama Papers - 4/5/2016 6:45:21 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Shall we have a lil discussion on this?
Ive hinted at it a couple of times this week, but no one has bitten.
So im done pussy footing around.

Panama papers
Heres some links to give you the background

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/world/panama-papers-explainer.html?_r=0

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/04/472985787/heres-what-you-need-to-know-so-far-about-panama-papers

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article69943337.html

This is the actual site...
https://panamapapers.icij.org/

The PMs (of UK) father is already named, so is Icelands president who has resigned already, and so is Vlad Putin. Of course there are more and Im not going to be surprised whose names pop up, from any country on any side and any sex. (just like the DC Madams call list that is now under kill switch security by the lawyer).

and corporations are people, but only rich crooked people.
gah sickening.



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Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Panama Papers - 4/5/2016 7:14:40 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Shall we have a lil discussion on this?
Ive hinted at it a couple of times this week, but no one has bitten.
So im done pussy footing around.

Panama papers
Heres some links to give you the background

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/world/panama-papers-explainer.html?_r=0

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/04/472985787/heres-what-you-need-to-know-so-far-about-panama-papers

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article69943337.html

This is the actual site...
https://panamapapers.icij.org/

The PMs (of UK) father is already named, so is Icelands president who has resigned already, and so is Vlad Putin. Of course there are more and Im not going to be surprised whose names pop up, from any country on any side and any sex. (just like the DC Madams call list that is now under kill switch security by the lawyer).

and corporations are people, but only rich crooked people.
gah sickening.


So far I cannot find my name.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Panama Papers - 4/5/2016 8:43:38 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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While there are legitimate reasons for shell corporations and off shore accounts, I would be surprised if many of those named turn out to actually have any of those legitimate reasons.

Also, re Putin, from what I understand he himself is not named, just "people close to him", and apparently the Russians are dismissing the whole thing as a lie meant to discredit Putin because of "Putinphobia".

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Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Panama Papers - 4/5/2016 8:50:41 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

and corporations are people, but only rich crooked people.
gah sickening.





do you by any chance remember that case? I have only run across reviews but never read the whole case if you have it handy.

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Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Panama Papers - 4/5/2016 9:12:18 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Shall we have a lil discussion on this?
Ive hinted at it a couple of times this week, but no one has bitten.
So im done pussy footing around.

Panama papers
Heres some links to give you the background


yeah, i heard about that but just cuz someone has a company there doesnt mean they are evading taxes if there home country (depends on its laws).. there is a difference between evasion and avoidance..

Everyone bitches about "tax havens" but the US has tax havens too, Delaware is one, and Puerto Rico is (for the next 20 years, maybe longer) the best tax haven in the world, especially for Americans that move their companies there.. no need to do anything illegal at all if you set up there.. I dont see too much outrage (from Americans) about that.. they only seem to bitch about other countries doing it (i guess they dont like the competition).. You can set up a corporation in the right states in the US and no one can find out who the real owner is, all totally legal.. (the UK has its own versions)

but if you didnt get yer honey to sign a prenup and you wanna trade her/him in for a younger model, having yer cash and assets in a corp in one of those countries pretty much means you can screw her/him outta something they could be legally entitled to in a US divorce, and that is a lot harder to find and even harder to seize.. So you see, there are other reasons to have at least some of yer cash/assets out of the country that have nothing to do with evading taxes.. and I bet everyone with an account in Cypress wishes they had some/all of their money in some other safer country that didnt need to steal their money to pay the country's debt.. just sayin'

"Why A Cyprus-Like Seizure Of Your Money Could Happen Here"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2013/03/25/can-a-cyprus-like-seizure-of-your-money-happen-here/#23e28fe84fa4

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalcampaigns/taxjusticecampaign/taxhavenlist.aspx

http://www.financialsecrecyindex.com/introduction/fsi-2015-results

< Message edited by tj444 -- 4/5/2016 9:13:14 PM >


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RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 12:22:54 AM   
MrRodgers


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Well we only see reaction at the top from countries not full of cynics. The US is full of cynics and feel like me, i.e.,...'should I be surprised at this ?' The answer of course is no.

There is no limit to greed. What I want disclosed is govt. agencies involved and hopefully get them out of the offshore finance/money, handling/laundering business.

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RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 5:27:21 AM   
mnottertail


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We obsess because a president got his dick sucked. To the world we are idiots.
The world obsesses because the world is outraged at these peoples lack of support of their countries, and their disdain for fair play and honesty. We say, but of course. The apologists say its legal! its legal!

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Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 7:11:00 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

We obsess because a president got his dick sucked. To the world we are idiots.
The world obsesses because the world is outraged at these peoples lack of support of their countries, and their disdain for fair play and honesty. We say, but of course. The apologists say its legal! its legal!

Well that's the basis for the cynicism. The very existence of these off shore possibilities is the essence of legalized corruption.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 8:42:38 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Shall we have a lil discussion on this?
Ive hinted at it a couple of times this week, but no one has bitten.
So im done pussy footing around.

Panama papers
Heres some links to give you the background

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/world/panama-papers-explainer.html?_r=0

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/04/472985787/heres-what-you-need-to-know-so-far-about-panama-papers

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article69943337.html

This is the actual site...
https://panamapapers.icij.org/

The PMs (of UK) father is already named, so is Icelands president who has resigned already, and so is Vlad Putin. Of course there are more and Im not going to be surprised whose names pop up, from any country on any side and any sex. (just like the DC Madams call list that is now under kill switch security by the lawyer).

and corporations are people, but only rich crooked people.
gah sickening.




Out of curiosity, has anything illegal been found? There is nothing inherently illegal in setting up offshore companies. I have not found any actual illegal activities being described, other than this being billed as tax evasion instead of government corruption.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 8:46:35 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
nothing to see here eh?
ok


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Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 8:49:38 AM   
Lucylastic


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http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/pfizer-pulls-160b-merger-after-treasury-introduces-new-tax-rules


U.S. drug maker Pfizer agreed to terminate its $160 billion agreement to acquire Botox maker Allergan, in a major victory to President Barack Obama’s drive to stop tax-dodging corporate mergers.

Announced on Tuesday, the decision to end the biggest tax “inversion” ever attempted, which would have seen Pfizer slash its tax bill by redomiciling to Ireland where Allergan is registered, came a day after the U.S. Treasury unveiled new rules to curb inversions.

While these new rules did not name Pfizer and Allergan, one of their provisions targeted a specific feature of their merger; Allergan’s previous history as a major acquirer of other companies. The subsequent demise of the deal allows Obama to claim a big win during his last year in office.

Earlier on Tuesday, Obama called global tax avoidance a “huge problem” and urged Congress to take action to stop U.S. companies from tax-avoiding corporate “inversions”, which lower companies tax bills by redomiciling overseas.

“While the Treasury Department’s actions will make it more difficult… to exploit this particular corporate inversions loophole, only Congress can close it for good,” Obama said.

Sources told CNBC that while both companies believed the Treasury had overstepped the bounds of its regulatory authority with a crackdown on inversions, neither wanted to risk launching litigation against the U.S. government.

Pfizer will have to pay Allergan up to $400 million for its expenses as a result of terminating the deal, according to their merger agreement.

Pfizer shares had ended trading in New York on Tuesday up 2 percent on hopes the company would walk away or renegotiate the deal in its favor. Allergan shares closed down 14.8 percent to their lowest level since October 2014.

Several U.S. presidential candidates, including Republican Donald Trump and Democrats Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, have seized on the issue in their campaigns.

“We have so many companies leaving, it is disgraceful,” Trump told reporters as he greeted voters in Waukesha, Wisconsin on Tuesday. Clinton and Sanders both expressed support for Treasury’s plan.

Besides Pfizer-Allergan, other pending inversion deals that have not yet closed include the proposed $16.5 billion merger of Johnson Controls Inc with Ireland-based Tyco International Plc, Waste Connections Inc’s $2.67 billion deal with Canada’s Progressive Waste Solutions Ltd, and IHS Inc’s $13 billion acquisition of London-based Markit Ltd.

In all these cases, the shares of the target companies fell only slightly. Johnson Controls and Tyco said they would respond after conducting a review of the new rules.

Waste Connections and Progressive Waste Solutions said they expected the rules would impact less than 3 percent of the combined adjusted free cash flow in their first year after the deal.

IHS and Markit said they believed the rules would not affect their adjusted effective tax rate guidance of a low to mid-twenties percentage range.

Three-Year Rule

Under previous rules which still apply, Allergan shareholders needed to own at least 40 percent of the combined company for the two companies to enjoy the full tax benefits of an inversion, and more than 20 percent to have any inversion benefit at all.

But a new ‘three-year-look-back rule’ issued by the Treasury on Monday made this much harder for Allergan, and appeared to take aim directly at it because of how the company was put together.

The new rule does not allow stock accumulated through a foreign company’s U.S. deals in the last three years to count towards the book value needed to meet the inversion threshold.

This weighed on Allergan heavily because of its significant deals in this timeframe. These include the $66 billion merger of Allergan and Actavis Plc, the $25 billion purchase of Forest Laboratories and the $5 billion takeover of Warner Chilcott.

“The serial acquisition portion of the regulations will cause Pfizer to be treated as an ‘expatriated entity’ (under the terms of its existing deal with Allergan),” Robert Willens, a corporate tax and accounting analyst, wrote in a note.

Shedding Generics

In a second change to the rules, the Treasury also said it would seek to limit a practice known as earnings stripping that is often undertaken following, but not limited to, an inversion. The new Treasury rules would restrict related-party debt for U.S. subsidiaries in dealings that do not finance new investment in the United States.

Without Allergan’s new, fast-growing medicines, Pfizer may need to look for other companies with attractive products, such as U.S. drugmakers Biogen Inc, Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc and AbbVie Inc, said Raghuram Selvaraju, managing director of brokerage H.C. Wainwright.

Pfizer had planned to make a decision by 2016 whether to split off its hundreds of generic medicines, but delayed the decision until 2019 after announcing its merger with Allergan. Morningstar analyst Damien Conover had said the decision could be moved to late 2017 or 2018 if the deal with Allergan collapsed.

Pfizer, which announced the deal in November, had said its tax rate would drop to about 17 or 18 percent after the deal, from around 25 percent. That would have represented more than $1 billion in annual cost savings.

The deal’s collapse is also a blow to the investment banks involved. Guggenheim Partners LLC, Goldman Sachs Group Inc, Centerview Partners Holdings LLC and Moelis & Co stood to share $94 million in fees advising Pfizer had the deal closed, while Allergan would have paid its advisors, JPMorgan Chase & Co and Morgan Stanley, $142 million in total, according to the latest estimates by Freeman & Co LLC.

Bankers may now get paid only 10 percent of these amounts, according to Freeman.

This is not the first time a tightening of the U.S. inversion rules have caused a merger to unravel. U.S. pharmaceutical company AbbVie abandoned its $55 billion takeover of Ireland-domiciled peer Shire Plc after the Obama administration cracked down on inversions in 2014. AbbVie had to pay Shire a $1.6 billion break-up fee.

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Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 8:51:13 AM   
mnottertail


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*snicker*

Obamas trying to keep your jobs here!!!!!!!!

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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 8:58:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Shall we have a lil discussion on this?
Ive hinted at it a couple of times this week, but no one has bitten.
So im done pussy footing around.

Panama papers
Heres some links to give you the background

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/world/panama-papers-explainer.html?_r=0

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/04/472985787/heres-what-you-need-to-know-so-far-about-panama-papers

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article69943337.html

This is the actual site...
https://panamapapers.icij.org/

The PMs (of UK) father is already named, so is Icelands president who has resigned already, and so is Vlad Putin. Of course there are more and Im not going to be surprised whose names pop up, from any country on any side and any sex. (just like the DC Madams call list that is now under kill switch security by the lawyer).

and corporations are people, but only rich crooked people.
gah sickening.




Out of curiosity, has anything illegal been found? There is nothing inherently illegal in setting up offshore companies. I have not found any actual illegal activities being described, other than this being billed as tax evasion instead of government corruption.


Not America wise, at any rate. Tax evasion of some types is not illegal in America, because you know, they are pouring that capital into the country. <<<<<<<<<<one of the best nutsuckisms ever. (LOLOLOLOLOLOL)

Not sure of any government corruption either.

Certainly is and has been the largest transfer of wealth ever in history though.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 9:05:03 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nothing to see here eh?
ok



Well that was a non-answer.

I actually stated what I see as a really huge issue, that you seem not to comprehend. Politicians and the media are describing this as a tax-evasion scandal. That is whitewashing. This is a global government corruption scandal. I just have not seen anything illegal mentioned. If it is legal and normal for politicians to squirrel away these kinds of funds in offshore accounts, that is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Because, where is the money coming from?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 9:15:18 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

*snicker*

Obamas trying to keep your jobs here!!!!!!!!

well,.. Ford just announced it is building a small car factory in Mexico that will hire 2,800 employees.. that is the number of new jobs so far, but i expect that will grow over time, especially if gas prices start increasing etc and consumer trends change again.. So, really, Obama is trying to keep those horrible rapist criminal illegal immigrants from coming to the US.. I wonder how long it will be before Americans are illegally entering Mexico to illegally work there at factories.. lol (ok, I think it will be some time before that happens, although there are 1 million Americans living in Mexico now..)

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 9:16:02 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nothing to see here eh?
ok



Well that was a non-answer.

I actually stated what I see as a really huge issue, that you seem not to comprehend. Politicians and the media are describing this as a tax-evasion scandal. That is whitewashing. This is a global government corruption scandal. I just have not seen anything illegal mentioned. If it is legal and normal for politicians to squirrel away these kinds of funds in offshore accounts, that is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Because, where is the money coming from?

what you see as non comprehension is actually just a little cynicism.
nothing more nothing less.


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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 9:26:21 AM   
Lucylastic


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The huge leak exposes governments across the globe wilfully ignoring tax avoidance by the rich. Although Clinton has not been linked to any malfeasance (YET) in the leak, there is a sense that she is among the elite rich, some of whose members have benefited from such schemes.

It has been revealed Clinton pushed through the Panama Free Trade Deal at the same time that Sanders vocally opposed it, citing research warning that it would strictly limit the government’s ability to clamp down on questionable or even illegal activity. Even if the Clintons remain unmentioned in future tax bombshells, Sanders can continue to exploit the narrative that Clinton is part of the demographic responsible, and has assisted in flagrant abuses of the system through trade deals.

The bill for the panamanian trade deal voted into law in 2011
http://www.c-span.org/congress/bills/bill/?112/hr3078
http://www.c-span.org/congress/votes/?101829/Senate/112-1/163
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4587446/bernie-panama-trade-deal
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-panama-papers-could-hand-bernie-sanders-the-keys-to-the-white-house-a6969481.html

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 9:31:01 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

What I want disclosed is govt. agencies involved and hopefully get them out of the offshore finance/money, handling/laundering business.

Well,.. Those govt agencies arent hiding.. far from it, they even advertise their services & benefits of incorporating in their country/state.. here the biggest are the State of Delaware, Nevada, Wyoming.. the US territory of PR.. It is estimated that $300 BILLION is laundered in the US... which makes sense cuz the US is a huge hungry market for products/services that are criminal/illegal..

"Money laundering is a necessary consequence of almost all profit generating crimes and can occur
almost anywhere in the world
. It is difficult to estimate with any accuracy how much money is laundered
in the United States
. However, while recognizing the limitations of the data sets utilized, this assessment
estimates that about $300 billion is generated annually in illicit proceeds. Fraud and drug trafficking
offenses generate most of those proceeds.

Fraud encompasses a number of distinct crimes, which together generate the largest volume of illicit
proceeds in the United States. Fraud perpetrated against federal government programs, including false
claims for federal tax refunds, Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement, and food and nutrition subsidies,
represent only one category of fraud but one that is estimated to generate at least twice the volume of
illicit proceeds earned from drug trafficking. Healthcare fraud involves the submission of false claims for
reimbursement, sometimes with the participation of medical professionals, support staff, and even
patients. Federal government payments received illegally by check can be cashed through check cashing
services, some of which have been found to be complicit in the fraud.

Drug trafficking is a cash business generating an estimated $64 billion annually from U.S. sales. Mexico
is the primary source of supply for some drugs and a transit point for others. Although there are no
reliable estimates of how much money Mexican drug trafficking organizations earn overall (estimates
range from $6 billion to $39 billion), for cocaine, Mexican suppliers are estimated to earn about 14 cents of every dollar spent by retail buyers in the United States. It is the thousands of low level drug dealers and
distributors throughout the country who receive most of the drug proceeds.

The severing by U.S. banks of customer relationships with Mexican money exchangers (casas de cambio)
as a result of U.S. enforcement actions against U.S. banks between 2007 and 2013, combined with the
U.S. currency deposit restrictions imposed by Mexico in 2010, are believed to have led to an increase in
holding and using drug cash in the United States and abroad
, because of placement challenges in both
countries. This shifted some money laundering activity from Mexico to the United States. "


https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/terrorist-illicit-finance/Documents/National%20Money%20Laundering%20Risk%20Assessment%20%E2%80%93%2006-12-2015.pdf


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 9:42:38 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

The huge leak exposes governments across the globe wilfully ignoring tax avoidance by the rich. Although Clinton has not been linked to any malfeasance (YET) in the leak, there is a sense that she is among the elite rich, some of whose members have benefited from such schemes.


the Clintons dont need to do that, they have a non-profit foundation that does global work.. so easy to divert money offshore without providing much proof of where the money went, what it was spent on, etc.. not that the IRS asks too many of those pesky questions..

I am thinking of starting a non-profit myself..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Panama Papers - 4/6/2016 9:46:42 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
I think you have more integrity ....

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Profile   Post #: 20
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